1 Cor. 5:9-13

[HisKid1973]

Hi All ..Grace and Peace to you.. I posted these verses in another forum and the thread died a slow death as I got a few bites and then it sank....Do any churches follow these verses or are they put aside to be more "loving" and not sound judgmental...I was going to put it in the moderate of whoever will but I thought I would really get blasted or given some kind of talk that it isnt politically correct.shalom...Kim

1 Cor. 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

 

[Hentenza]

The fact that your thread died a slow death in another forum should tell you the general belief of that forum. These verses are important and, churches that do not follow them usually preach easy beliviesm.

 

[rmw8855]

Actually this verse is being discussed in the non-denominational forum too. The first link about honoring the feasts, led Nadiine to start the 2nd thread which addresses this issue.

Wow - Something I overlooked

Who should we divide from?

 

[rmw8855]

Here is my answer to Nadiine's OP - Who should we divide from?

1 Corinthians 5:6-13

Expel the Immoral Brother!
5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth. 9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

Matthew 18:15-17

15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Based on these 2 scriptures we are to separate ourselves from our brothers / sisters in Christ if they persist in sin despite being shown their error.

It doesn't apply to non-christians. How are they supposed to accept Jesus, if they are never exposed to his love. We can't expect them to live a Godly life until after they accept him and even then change takes time.

However, churches need to be very careful how they handle this. I had a friend kicked out of her church for living with her boyfriend. She was obviously in error, but there was no prior counseling or direct contact on this issue. The churches 1st response was to send her a letter informing her she was no longer welcome. All that church suceeded in doing was driving her away from God instead of helping her to see her error.

Our brothers and sisters in Christ need to be given every opportunity to repent. As long as they are trying to change, I feel we should continue to act in grace and mercy. I think the final step of separation should only be taken if they refuse to change. Since only God truly knows our heart, this step should only be taken after much prayer.

On a personal level, there are other reasons for separating yourself from your brothers. For instance if your brother is involved in an area of sin where you have a weakness, it is wise to separate yourself from them so that you are not tempted.

 

[HisKid1973]

Thanks I checked both..Never was at the non denom much..A peek now and then..The first thread had a different focus..The other it just got brought up( the post above me...good points btw)..Shalom..K

 

[rmw8855]

I didn't mean to derail your thread HisKid. I just thought it was interesting that I had already participated in this discussion today. Sometimes that means it's something that God is trying to tell us.

 

[Angeldove97]

Hello Brother,
Interesting topic and interesting verses---probably one of the hardest things to do to a person is to "reject" them or let them go/separate them, especially since as Christians we are called to love and to love even more. 1 Corinthians is one of my favorite Books of the Bible--- my favorite chapter comes from this and is Chapter 13, which is the very famous chapter about love (how ironic). But before I throw in my two cents about the verses you shared, I wanted to show you this.

I don't exactly remember why I highlighted these verses in my Bible, but I thought they might play well with my message and I wanted to share:

"My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power." ~1 Corinthians 2:4-5

We grow up thinking that the true Christian is ever loving and does nothing to harm a soul or create havoc in another person's heart. And we, as Christians, are taught that God loves us so very much---He sent His own Son to die for us! But we hardly learn or want to admit that God provides a different kind of love to us at times--- He provides the tough love at moments in our lives when we have to learn certain lessons.

And I think these verses in Chapter 5 reflect that tough love of making sure our Brethren get back right with our Lord and Savior. It opens up by saying that these so called believers were doing worse sexual sins than even Pagans! And now is the time that these people either continue what they're doing or repent of their sins and change their ways.

Here we discuss two types of people:
---People OUTSIDE of the Church, whom God will judge and we are called to help teach them about Jesus.
---People INSIDE of the Church, who are fully aware of who Jesus is, but still lives immorally and does not show any signs of wanting to change.

These verses talking about removing that person is about the person who knows Jesus, but doesn't truly known or live FOR Jesus. There's a huge difference between the two and I'm sure when we step into our churches, we can easily point out a couple of them.

Does that mean we're judging them? Yes we are judging them---but we're judging them in order to give them a dose of tough love. Sometimes we don't realize how good we have it with our friends and family until we lose them---we lose that love, security, safety, and socialization that we need as human beings. So sometimes it's necessary for us to tell the person that if they would only turn their hearts towards God, He would do amazing things for them---and yes even a little bit of sin can prevent us from all of God's blessings.

"No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him..." ~1 Corinthians 2:9

This verse isn't finished yet but it reminds us that God will do amazing things for us if we only repent. For those who wish not to repent, they must be separated from us-- either for a short time or for all of time--- and this should be seen as an act of love.

An act of love?
Yes! For two reasons, (1) we're showing the sinner that we're serious about wanting him or her to get right with Jesus. We long to have them in heaven with us---we long to see them do incredible things with Jesus' power. (2) We're protecting the flock---ourselves and the younger Christians (by faith or by age). I don't want a Sister coming up to the young kids in church and telling them how much she loves to go out and get drunk and meet some men. Those young in faith would wonder---well she's a Christian, that must mean it's okay for me to do it, and God will just forgive me later. So by us asking a person to leave our church until he or she is prepared to repent it is our way of showing love. Of course, I would suggest that a mentor help the person as well---the pastor or priest stay in contact with them, offer guidance, as long as the person shows some sign of wanting help.

Now going back to verse 9, I'm going to give the ending (or actually verse 10):

"but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit." ~1 Corinthians 2:10

God will of course send His Spirit, if we ask for it, to help us during this time. The person may be very upset with us--may call us rude things---but if in our hearts we know that without a doubt we are doing this for the very best of the person and for the flock we attend, we are in no way doing something mean or sinful. We should remember this person in our prayers and ask that the Spirit would surround and guide this person. Because it is through the Spirit that each of us realizes our sin and our need for God's love in our lives.

 

[Latreia]

Here is my answer to Nadiine's OP - Who should we divide from?

Based on these 2 scriptures we are to separate ourselves from our brothers / sisters in Christ if they persist in sin despite being shown their error.

It doesn't apply to non-christians. How are they supposed to accept Jesus, if they are never exposed to his love. We can't expect them to live a Godly life until after they accept him and even then change takes time.

However, churches need to be very careful how they handle this. I had a friend kicked out of her church for living with her boyfriend. She was obviously in error, but there was no prior counseling or direct contact on this issue. The churches 1st response was to send her a letter informing her she was no longer welcome. All that church suceeded in doing was driving her away from God instead of helping her to see her error.

Our brothers and sisters in Christ need to be given every opportunity to repent. As long as they are trying to change, I feel we should continue to act in grace and mercy. I think the final step of separation should only be taken if they refuse to change. Since only God truly knows our heart, this step should only be taken after much prayer.

On a personal level, there are other reasons for separating yourself from your brothers. For instance if your brother is involved in an area of sin where you have a weakness, it is wise to separate yourself from them so that you are not tempted.

Does it seem at all likely that scriptures are telling the faithful that only brothers and sisters that are guilty of the worst sins in the world should be put outside with the rest? Yet at the same time, keeping company with the outsiders is OK because they are not bound to be as Christians?


9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—

10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.

Is this saying it is OK to associate with these people as long as they are not inside the church? Surely not.

11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

If this be the admonition about how to treat those inside, can it be interpreted to mean being much more harsh with those who are our brothers and sisters than all others in the outside?

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

How can it say to expel the wicked from among us and yet associate with those who are wicked in the outside world?

Matthew 7

4 Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye?

5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

6 Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."

Galatians 4: 17
''Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good.
What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may be zealous for them."

Modern times and political correctness may use the Scriptures for new agendas, but beware of those that seek to do so.

Remember Whom you serve, and Him only.

 

[Latreia]

Hello Brother,
Interesting topic and interesting verses---probably one of the hardest things to do to a person is to "reject" them or let them go/separate them, especially since as Christians we are called to love and to love even more. 1 Corinthians is one of my favorite Books of the Bible--- my favorite chapter comes from this and is Chapter 13, which is the very famous chapter about love (how ironic). But before I throw in my two cents about the verses you shared, I wanted to show you this.

I don't exactly remember why I highlighted these verses in my Bible, but I thought they might play well with my message and I wanted to share:

"My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power." ~1 Corinthians 2:4-5

We grow up thinking that the true Christian is ever loving and does nothing to harm a soul or create havoc in another person's heart. And we, as Christians, are taught that God loves us so very much---He sent His own Son to die for us! But we hardly learn or want to admit that God provides a different kind of love to us at times--- He provides the tough love at moments in our lives when we have to learn certain lessons.

And I think these verses in Chapter 5 reflect that tough love of making sure our Brethren get back right with our Lord and Savior. It opens up by saying that these so called believers were doing worse sexual sins than even Pagans! And now is the time that these people either continue what they're doing or repent of their sins and change their ways.

Here we discuss two types of people:
---People OUTSIDE of the Church, whom God will judge and we are called to help teach them about Jesus.
---People INSIDE of the Church, who are fully aware of who Jesus is, but still lives immorally and does not show any signs of wanting to change.

These verses talking about removing that person is about the person who knows Jesus, but doesn't truly known or live FOR Jesus. There's a huge difference between the two and I'm sure when we step into our churches, we can easily point out a couple of them.

Does that mean we're judging them? Yes we are judging them---but we're judging them in order to give them a dose of tough love. Sometimes we don't realize how good we have it with our friends and family until we lose them---we lose that love, security, safety, and socialization that we need as human beings. So sometimes it's necessary for us to tell the person that if they would only turn their hearts towards God, He would do amazing things for them---and yes even a little bit of sin can prevent us from all of God's blessings.

"No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him..." ~1 Corinthians 2:9

This verse isn't finished yet but it reminds us that God will do amazing things for us if we only repent. For those who wish not to repent, they must be separated from us-- either for a short time or for all of time--- and this should be seen as an act of love.

An act of love?
Yes! For two reasons, (1) we're showing the sinner that we're serious about wanting him or her to get right with Jesus. We long to have them in heaven with us---we long to see them do incredible things with Jesus' power. (2) We're protecting the flock---ourselves and the younger Christians (by faith or by age). I don't want a Sister coming up to the young kids in church and telling them how much she loves to go out and get drunk and meet some men. Those young in faith would wonder---well she's a Christian, that must mean it's okay for me to do it, and God will just forgive me later. So by us asking a person to leave our church until he or she is prepared to repent it is our way of showing love. Of course, I would suggest that a mentor help the person as well---the pastor or priest stay in contact with them, offer guidance, as long as the person shows some sign of wanting help.

Now going back to verse 9, I'm going to give the ending (or actually verse 10):

"but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit." ~1 Corinthians 2:10

God will of course send His Spirit, if we ask for it, to help us during this time. The person may be very upset with us--may call us rude things---but if in our hearts we know that without a doubt we are doing this for the very best of the person and for the flock we attend, we are in no way doing something mean or sinful. We should remember this person in our prayers and ask that the Spirit would surround and guide this person. Because it is through the Spirit that each of us realizes our sin and our need for God's love in our lives.

Those people OUTSIDE of the Church, many who adamantly reject both God and Jesus Christ, are we to teach them by assuring them that they are not sinners and that we can accept them just as they are and the church welcomes them just as they are?

Interesting images, with brothers and sisters being shown the back door out, while the front door is open to those who revile Christians and their faith.

CF is like that. The voices of false brethern and non-Christians, yes, even atheists, taking over whole forums, right into the Christian Teens, while traditional and Orthodox Christians with conservative views are constantly challenged and attacked....on their so-called "congregation" forums.

Christians members who are criticized, preached at by those who have their own personal interpretations of the Bible, and even atheists accusing us of not being "Christian enough" to please them.

We have "turned the other cheek" in the most divisive ways.

Colossians 2
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit,
after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Galatians 4
17 They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.


Galatians 5

7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

 

[rmw8855]

I think the verse is saying that it is not our place to judge those outside the church. The only reason a non-christian would generally come to a church on a regular basis is because they are seeking. If they are seeking truth we shouldn't do anything to interfere with that. If they don't know God's love / truth how can they receive correction from it.

It does tell us to judge our brothers / sisters. Since they know God & his truth, they are held to a higher standard. I do believe separating ourselves from them is supposed to be a last resort and then only if counseling, prayer, etc. hasn't worked and they persist in their sin with no sign of repentence.

Another difference is the level of relationship involved. You would associate with an outsider on a more superficial level (church luncheon or other sponsered event), whereas your brother / sister is a part of your family (invited into your home, socialize with them, etc.).

 

[HisKid1973]

Good posts excellent examples..I would love to see this accepted in more forums.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Here is my real life case in point:

I had a friend who was living with her boyfriend, but was not Christian. Throughout her engagement, I constantly was giving her scriptures about Christ, and how in his eyes this was wrong. I never ended our friendship but continued to impress upon her the importance of Christ in our lives. Soon after she was married, she started going to church, and one day called me and said that she had repented of the sin of living with her boyfriend.

On the other hand, I had a friend who was a fellow lifelong member of my church. She also lived with her boyfriend prior to their marriage. With her, I used the word to judge her actions. She KNEW what she was doing was wrong, but had all kinds of excuses to justify why they were doing it. She asked me to be in her wedding and I told her no, not unless her and her boyfriend lived in separate places until the marriage. It took me being harsh and kinda putting her into reality before she realized that yes, she needed to repent and make things right before her wedding. I was able to attend her wedding and be a part of it, knowing she and her boyfriend had changed their ways.

Two similar situations, two very different ways of handling them. And both turned out okay. Both couples are doing strong and attending church still.

 

[ContentInHim]

Great post, Preacher's Wife!

We're going through this right now in my home church. We're small so each member is crucial and yet one young man refused to give up his sin so he has been informed that he cannot return until he's repented. We pray that he will do so.

One reason it's so important to separate out the unrepentant sinner from the church is Paul's words "A little leaven spoils the whole loaf".

 

[Angeldove97]

Those people OUTSIDE of the Church, many who adamantly reject both God and Jesus Christ, are we to teach them by assuring them that they are not sinners and that we can accept them just as they are and the church welcomes them just as they are?

No we should be teaching them by our words and our actions about the Lord and Savior. I never said anything about them NOT being sinners and not having to face damnation for their sins. God takes care of believers and non-believers---I just think in these specific Bible verses in the OP that we're being asked to carefully watch our Brothers and Sisters lest they stumble and live as they would without salvation.

Sometimes it's necessary for a flock to remove a sheep who is continuously sinning--- as a wake up call or sign that the flock sees their sin and will not let a person live in the Church while just being okay with sinning.

Interesting images, with brothers and sisters being shown the back door out, while the front door is open to those who revile Christians and their faith.

I'm not sure where you're getting that at all from my post. I think that yes we should be a little harder on our Brothers and Sisters---keep pushing them to grow in their faith and sin less. Sinners who do not know Christ yet we shouldn't expect them to automatically understand what saved Christians do. I don't see where I said anything against kicking out Christians and letting sinners in.

CF is like that. The voices of false brethern and non-Christians, yes, even atheists, taking over whole forums, right into the Christian Teens, while traditional and Orthodox Christians with conservative views are constantly challenged and attacked....on their so-called "congregation" forums.

That's your opinion---if CF isn't being run the way you wish, why still be around here? If you see this as a place of sin, remove yourself from it---especially if it causes you to sin.

I'm not telling you to leave at all, but I'm just saying in general if you go to a church or a discussion forum and it makes you to sin in any way, you have the responsibility to remove yourself.

Apparently I still see good in this site--- we're not perfect as Christians (though I think we could be alot worse off) and I find it interesting to discuss other faiths with people here. It doesn't effect me as a Christian, so I don't see how it's ruining the site to have them as members and staff.

Christians members who are criticized, preached at by those who have their own personal interpretations of the Bible, and even atheists accusing us of not being "Christian enough" to please them.

Now this is starting to get off topic--- I don't find my interpretation personally wrong but if I am please point it out. But once again that's your point of view, just like many of us see it in different lights/opinions.

 

[rrguy]

Well I remember growing up & hearing how my Church had excommunicate certain people for doing things obviously, against its teachings, & ignoring the Pastors advice. Yet you would hear more from other churches on how it was wrong to do so, how that was not loving. Questioned who they were to deny anyone?

 

[Angeldove97]

Well I remember growing up & hearing how my Church had excommunicate certain people for doing things obviously, against its teachings, & ignoring the Pastors advice. Yet you would hear more from other churches on how it was wrong to do so, how that was not loving. Questioned who they were to deny anyone?

I think when you completely cut somebody off that can be very harsh---I still think we should be responsible with keeping an eye on the person, but not the flock itself, but a spiritual mentor or pastor/priest should watch out for the person. I wouldn't want the person to be spiteful towards that church for making such a decision.

But your correct, we do hear alot more about how this is seen as an unloving act--- though it is often done with love. Should a pastor/priest with the group make this decision just because they want to get rid of the troublesome member then that's not doing it out of love and I see it as a sin--- but if you're trying to give a wake up call the the parishioner, you want to protect the flock, and you provide some kind of assistance for this member then I think that's done by the Book

 

[Cromwe11]

I think that the issue is balance.

There are a lot of churches who completely ignore this kind of passage completely. There are other churches who would use this to cast out someone who was trying to follow Jesus but was weak and struggling.

Neither one is right. You have to find the balance. If someone is unrepentantly sinning in such ways and justifies their lifestyle, then they should be cast out of the Church and turned over to Satan for their own good.

If, on the other hand, they are trying to repent and live right, but have struggles and problems, they should be ministered to with compassion and mercy.

 

[DerSchweik]

Good comment re balance.

Here is my answer to Nadiine's OP - Who should we divide from?

Based on these 2 scriptures we are to separate ourselves from our brothers / sisters in Christ if they persist in sin despite being shown their error.

It doesn't apply to non-christians. How are they supposed to accept Jesus, if they are never exposed to his love. We can't expect them to live a Godly life until after they accept him and even then change takes time.

However, churches need to be very careful how they handle this. I had a friend kicked out of her church for living with her boyfriend. She was obviously in error, but there was no prior counseling or direct contact on this issue. The churches 1st response was to send her a letter informing her she was no longer welcome. All that church suceeded in doing was driving her away from God instead of helping her to see her error.

Our brothers and sisters in Christ need to be given every opportunity to repent. As long as they are trying to change, I feel we should continue to act in grace and mercy. I think the final step of separation should only be taken if they refuse to change. Since only God truly knows our heart, this step should only be taken after much prayer.

On a personal level, there are other reasons for separating yourself from your brothers. For instance if your brother is involved in an area of sin where you have a weakness, it is wise to separate yourself from them so that you are not tempted.

Another good comment and excellent insight!

In addition to the Matthew 18 verse already mentioned (and others), I think the key factor here is essentially "Christian" example.

(I Cor 15:34) - "Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God I speak this to your shame."

When there are others scrutinizing Christians as they are and they see blatant sin, they can do ought but criticize or worse, make a personal decision against Christ. How scary that the actions of someone professing Christ, yet behaving worldly might cause another child of God to stumble (ala "millstones"), or prevent someone from becoming a Christian who witnesses such behavior.

You're all right though that we need to exercise extreme caution, wisdom, and discernment w/r to shunning, or "excommunicating," or "dis-fellowshipping" someone.

The process outlined in Mt 18 is a good one, inasmuch as it is a process (and spoken by Jesus Himself):

• An individual close to the person, to appeal to the person first, one-on-one
• If they refuse to repent, the individual appeals to the elders for help
• If they continue to be obstinate, the elders take it to the church
• If not even that works, well there have been a lot of opportunities for a variety of people to provide their input and insight; and more importantly, wisdom and discernment.

If, at the end of such a process, there is consensus between the individual (who should know the person sufficiently well), the elders (whose wisdom alone should see past any errors in judgment) and the church as a whole (bringing the whole of the congregation's experience to the fore) that the person simply refuses to change their un-Christ-like behavior, well, I think the church needs to do as Jesus commanded - and that for the sake of the individual (as Paul did), for the sake of other Christians who might be influenced to ape their behavior, and for the sake of non-Christians who might be searching...

If, in the rare instance that such a congregation as a whole is in the wrong (or an influential individual) - and I speak from personal experience (having been there, as an unfortunate recipient of an individual's unwarranted pre-ICOC "judgment" [PM me if curious to know what that means]), then such a situation probably calls for that person to revisit their church affiliation preferences and seek Christian guidance and fellowship elsewhere.

Love you all! In Him,

 

[PreachersWife2004]

One thing I've noticed about church discipline...it takes a very long time to conclude, especially if the person under discipline is unrepentant. It does not and should not happen overnight.

I have seen two ex-communications in my lifetime, and they hurt the soul, because it's almost as though you're losing a family member. And you just pray and pray that the Holy Spirit will guide that person back to the fold someday. But church discipline, like parents disciplining their children, is a necessity and it definitely done in love, not in any need to get rid of a certain member or anything like that.

Any church body using church discipline to do that is not using discipline in the loving manner that it should be and ought to be disciplined herself.

 

[JPPT1974]

Every member of the Body of
Christ is important nobody is
One over the other the way
Christ looks at it and so should we!