1 Cor 14:22

[tttodd]

God's Word is not like that at all. "God will always give one person a different meaning to a point of His Word than He will another." NO, No, No, God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

I totally agree. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. But He works in each of us differently. He may give one person more insight into His Word than He may another - dependant upon where we are on our walk with Him and where He wants us to be on that walk. All of us can't always be on the same page, spiritually speaking. Can we all be prophets? Call weall be Pastors? Can we all be Worship Leaders? Can we all be Sunday School teachers? Nope.

 

[AVBunyan]

The Gifts


All right – tongues – easy if you take the Bible as it stands and understand how God deals with Israel as a nation. Most make issue of prayer languages, interpreter or not and never cover what tongues are really for. Let’s get down to the basics. Remember, God deals with Israel as a nation differently than he deals with the body of Christ today.


According to the Bible tongues are for a sign (1 Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign,…). The verse didn’t say tongues were for your personal edification, prayer time, public worship service, etc. Tongues are for a sign. Now, who require signs in the Bible? The Jews require a sign (1 Cor 1:22 For the Jews require a sign,….). Why did the Jews require a sign? It was a part of their history. When God and Moses had their conversation at the burning bush Moses said (and I paraphrase), “They are not going to believe me.” The Lord said, “I will give you some signs to authenticate your ministry.” Moses went to them and did signs and wonders and they believed. When the Lord came to Israel in the gospels he came with signs to authenticate his ministry and some believed. In fact the Pharisees came seeking a sign - Mat 12:38 “Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.” After Christ arose he gave the apostles the signs to authenticate their ministries they went about doing signs and wonders.


Next, tongues were not for believers but for unbelievers – “not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: - I Cor. 14:22. This is the clincher. Moses went to Jews who were unbelievers of his ministry. Jesus went to an unbelieving Israel with signs. Paul went to unbelieving Israel with signs. Also, the Jews were “unbelievers” in the sense that they did not believe that God would not bless the Gentiles. In Acts 2 where the signs and wonders took place Peter preached to thousands of “unbelieving Jews” and they believed after the message with signs and wonders (Acts 2:43).


Today tongues are used in churches for believers – in other words done for the edification of the speaker or hearer, which is contrary to I Cor. 1:22 and 14:22 (note both verses are 22 – can’t beat the book!)


Now, when you use your “tongues” in your church service are there any unbelieving Jews there? Maybe and maybe not but most likely not. When you are using “tongues” in your private prayer closet are there any unbelieving Jews there?


Let’s wrap it up – When God deals with Israel as a nation he uses signs and wonders as authentication. God is not dealing with Israel as a nation today – God is dealing with individuals. Tongues are for a sign and to unbelievers, not believers. Tongues are a sign of judgment to the unbelieving Jews. Also, unbelievers are “believing “ Jews in Acts who were didn’t believe the Gentiles could get in on the blessings.


Tongue speakers are not following this today one bit. I really don’t care about how good tongues feel to you and how excited you get when you utter your “tongues”. When you pray and speak in tongues are you doing it as a sign to unbelieving Jews? I don’t care if you saw millions at once speaking in tongues. What you saw were millions of deceived people led by an unclean spirit. They may be nice, polite, Bible-quoting people but they were deceived while they were nice, polite and quoting scripture.


I know you have a lot of verses you get from I Cor 14 but remember Paul is rebuking a carnal church of a misuse of a doctrine to the point where he calls them children in malice. Why you think you can find anything positive there to support your tongues beats the fire out of me.


Don’t judge tongues by your experience – judge your experience by the Bible. Anybody can think they speak in tongues. I’ve even seen people “practicing” their tongues so they wouldn’t lose them! Please, people! The great men of God of old wouldn’t and didn’t mess with that stuff for a minute and God used any one of them more then 10,000 tongue speakers today.

But you say, “Yes, but I still know what I know and I speak in tongues and others do so that proves it!” Fine, base your doctrine on feelings and experience and ignore the plain teaching of scripture.

Again, one last time with feeling – UNTILL YOU UNDERSTAND THAT GOD DEALS WITH ISRAEL AS A NATION DIFFERENTLY THAN HE DOES WITH THE BODY OF CHRIST TODAY THEN YOU CAN FORGET UNDERSTANDING THE GIFTS!

Ya'll have a nice day now!

 

[Symes]

What has been said in the previous post is right. Tongues are for unbelievers.

 

[suzie]

Tongues is a spiritual gift--the gifts are to be used to minister to the needs of the body of believers. Paul warns us in 1 Thes. 5:19 not to "put out the Spirit's fire"

In 1 Cor 14, the validity of the gift of tongues was not challenged by Paul nor was its exercise. Paul showed no support that this was the "test" of having the Holy Spirit either however. Pauls arguement was the intelligibility during Christian gathering. During Church meetings, intelligible speach is to be the priority, and tongues should be used limitedly. In saying that tongues is not a sign for believers, it is bringing to light his earlier point that we are not to look at this gift as a guage of spirituality. This gift was being abused within Christian gatherings. However, tongues is a spriitual gift...

 

[Sephania]

We cannot get away from the fact that tongues are to be used for when we deal with unbelievers.

This happened at Pentecost.

Those listening were unbelievers and did not know that the gospel was now to be taken abroad.

That isn't exactly true. Those that heard them on Shavuot, or Pentacost were those who were there during Passover. It was required for all men to go to Jerusalem and present themselves to the L-RD three times a year, Passover, Shavuot and in the fall, Sukkot. Because there was only about 44 days between these holy days most that came from the Diaspora stayed on until Shavuot because of traveling taking so long. These were those that were there on that day. They were commandment abiding believing Jews. They believed in the one true G-d. It was hearing the truth of Yeshua as their promised Messiah that they heard spoken to them. It had nothing to do with them not knowing that the gospel was now to be taken abroad, that makes no sense. Jerusalem was not "abroad" in fact it was those in the Diaspora who were the ones there that day that the Ruach HaKodesh ( Holy Spirit) needed to give those 120 the message of the Messiah in their own language, this is not tongues as a Holy language, but just the language of their native homeland outside Eretz Israel.

 

[muffler dragon]

Verses using tongues (in the sense that we are describing). I will use the KJV.

Mark 16
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Acts 2
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Acts 2
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Acts 10
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Acts 19
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

1 Corinthians 12
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1 Corinthians 12
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 12
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

1 Corinthians 13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1 Corinthians 13
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1 Corinthians 14
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1 Corinthians 14
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

1 Corinthians 14
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

1 Corinthians 14
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

1 Corinthians 14
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

1 Corinthians 14
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

I present all these different verses to say this: there are many diverse reasons for tongues. Tongues can be used for the unbeliever as has been described in this thread. Tongues can be used to magnify and praise God. Tongues can be used for corporate or personal edification. But to lump them into one purpose as has been done on this thread is incorrect.

Should someone feel like praying in tongues is proper for them; then so be it. Should someone feel otherwise, then by all means, that is the 'law' for them. This is not an issue that should be used for division. It is of secondary concern and has no real concern for salvation or sanctification. Therefore, I suggest, let bygones be bygones.

 

[Symes]

Should someone feel like praying in tongues is proper for them; then so be it. Should someone feel otherwise, then by all means, that is the 'law' for them. This is not an issue that should be used for division. It is of secondary concern and has no real concern for salvation or sanctification. Therefore, I suggest, let bygones be bygones.

What is the point of praying in a tongue that the person does not even know when it is over what they have said.

That type of utterance can only come from the devil.

It is not edifying God in any way.

Paul talked against this.

 

[muffler dragon]

What is the point of praying in a tongue that the person does not even know when it is over what they have said.

That type of utterance can only come from the devil.

It is not edifying God in any way.

Paul talked against this.

Praying in a tongue for a personal edification serves the edification of that person as seen in two verses:

Romans 8

26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.

Jude 1

20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit.

Praying in the Spirit can be synonymous for personal prayer in a tongue. As the Holy Spirit searches through us, He then intercedes with what He finds.

The only speaking in tongues that Paul spoke against was in public. And even in this regard, he did not forbid it; he strictly said that it needs to be done in an orderly fashion. This can be seen in all the verses I have in my previous post. And once again, it comes down to which function the tongues are serving and the timing with which they are performed.

If you do not speak in tongues, then I say, "God be with you." However, you cannot condemn someone who speaks in tongues. Paul specifically condemns judgment of a fellow believer in a matter that has very little to do with salvation. He deals with wonderfully in Romans 14.

Romans 14


The Weak and the Strong

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[1] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[2] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

I realize that bringing food into the mix is kind of strange, but it truly covers the exact same idea behind it.

In summary, I have shown in my first post that tongues have multiple purposes. I have shown in this post that tongues can be used for personal edification through the work of the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, I end this post as I did the other. Let bygones be bygones.

 

[Symes]

In summary, I have shown in my first post that tongues have multiple purposes. I have shown in this post that tongues can be used for personal edification through the work of the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, I end this post as I did the other. Let bygones be bygones.

For sure "Let bygones be bygones"

But lest us still speak the truth.

 

[muffler dragon]

For sure "Let bygones be bygones"

But lest us still speak the truth.

Dear Symes:

I'm trying to understand your statement.

Are you still claiming that I am not speaking in truth, even with all I have presented?

If that happens to be the case, just say, "yes". That will give me the opportunity to completely drop this subject and realize that it matters not what I have to say. I really don't care to continue in a discussion where I am completely ignored, especially when I present sound evidence for a particular belief.

Other than that, I wish you a wonderful weekend.

 

[Sephania]

He doens'nt seem to want to address my post either.

 

[Symes]

muffler dragon

Some of what you say is right. But God does not need us to talk in another tongue (language) to Him. When people do they do not know what they are saying. What is the real purpose of rambling onto God in a tongue that you do not know what is said?

How is that edifying God and how is that going to benefit the person speaking?

 

[Symes]

Acts 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Acts 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

This is what tongues are about, not rambling on and no one knows what is being said.

 

[Sephania]

Our tongues and with tongues are not necessarily one and the same. You can have a native language ( tongue) a second language, or foreign language( tongue) and the language of heaven or (tongues)

 

[muffler dragon]

muffler dragon

Some of what you say is right. But God does not need us to talk in another tongue (language) to Him. When people do they do not know what they are saying. What is the real purpose of rambling onto God in a tongue that you do not know what is said?

How is that edifying God and how is that going to benefit the person speaking?

Dear Brother:

I've already laid out a lot of my answer in post #28, so you can re-reference that should you desire to.

In response to your statement above of:

But God does not need us to talk in another tongue (language) to Him.

This is true. God doesn't NEED any such thing. However, tongues are presented as an avenue, if you will, that the L-rd has created for things that we don't know. As I have already stated, it's a matter of the Holy Spirit searching our innermost being and expressing to the L-rd what should be told.

Anymore than that and I am simply repeating myself. With that, I say Goodnight, and hope that we can put this to rest as well.

 

[Symes]

This is true. God doesn't NEED any such thing. However, tongues are presented as an avenue, if you will, that the L-rd has created for things that we don't know. As I have already stated, it's a matter of the Holy Spirit searching our innermost being and expressing to the L-rd what should be told.

When a person talks in a language (TONGUE) to God and they do not know what is being said then it is not from God.

 

[tttodd]

When a person talks in a language (TONGUE) to God and they do not know what is being said then it is not from God.

Symes,

Perhaps you would care to show some Scripture that would back up this statement. By the verses posted by "Muffler Dragon", it would appear to me, rather persuasively, I might add, that the gift of the Holy Spirit of praying in toungues is indeed of God. If you could show us where it says in God's Word that we should never pray in the Spirit (tongues), then perhaps we could better understand your statements of your beliefs and understandings of this gift of God. I am in no way discrediting your beliefs and understandings but merely trying to understand how you came about them. I always strive to live my life according to God's Word and am always testing the spirits to be sure that what is being told to my heart is from God and not a lie from the enemy. To date, I have been reassured repeatedly by God's Word and by His Holy Spirit that this gift is indeed from Him.

Sincerely,

Todd

 

[muffler dragon]

When a person talks in a language (TONGUE) to God and they do not know what is being said then it is not from God.

Dear Symes:

Take care, brother. I wish you well and I'm sure we'll have more things to discuss in the future. There's nothing more I can do here.

Muffler

 

[Sephania]

I personally don't do this but have heard it explained that certain people that do are praying with the HS, that I have done but in my own language. If allowed though I believe that the HS will pray through a person using heavens language, I have heard that it is so the demons can't understand it and seek to stop the request somehow.

 

[muffler dragon]

Thanks Todd, I appreciate the encouragement.