1+1+1=1 or 1+1+1 =3

[muffler dragon]

But as you have stated, Hebrew would have been the language spoken in the temple, and seeing as though Jesus was speaking in the temple in John 8:58-59, could it have been possible that he was speaking to them the entire time in Hebrew, and that most of the crowd of Pharises he was talking to knew exactly what he was describing unto himself?

To put my statement in context, Hebrew is spoken in the Temple in prayers and reading of the Scriptures. It was not conversational in first century Judaism.

Plus, do you know whether there are two words in aramaic that bring up the phrase, I AM?

I'm afraid I'm gonna have to defer to the Aramaic scholar on the board (Steve-o):

First, there is no single word in Aramaic that means "I am."

Since he knows much more about it than me, I will accept his word.

We are discussing the trinity yes, but the pagan influencies of the Trinity sound like it could grow into an even bigger subject, so why continue in htis thread where as we might get more of a discussion in a new one?

That's fine. Just asking. When I get the time, I'll start it right up.

 

[peaceful soul]

Conversation: Hey "pot"! Have you met "kettle"? For some reason, he keeps saying that you're black and he's not.



That's the great thing about having faith in the religion in which you believe: it's circular reasoning and subjectivities.

Very cute, mufflerdragon. Your statements do not detract from the intent of my post. It could as well apply to you. I think that you know what I was driving at. We are all biased, but some of us realize our limitations and work very hard to minimize their influence on our studies. The people that I was addressing didn't seem to see it that way.

 

[muffler dragon]

Very cute, mufflerdragon. Your statements do not detract from the intent of my post. It could as well apply to you. I think that you know what I was driving at. We are all biased, but some of us realize our limitations and work very hard to minimize their influence on our studies. The people that I was addressing didn't seem to see it that way.

I fully admit my subjectivities and circular reasoning that is often called faith.

And I applaud you for trying to minimize the influence. That is the same thing that I do myself. It's the condescension that I have a problem with, and that is what led to my "cute" expression.

 

[S Walch]

Since he knows much more about it than me, I will accept his word.

So, I'm guessing we're waiting to see whether Steve-o answers if their are two words that could be translated as I AM - as my source could easily have missed saying words instead of word.

That's fine. Just asking. When I get the time, I'll start it right up.

Alrighty

 

[The Thadman]

So, I'm guessing we're waiting to see whether Steve-o answers if their are two words that could be translated as I AM - as my source could easily have missed saying words instead of word.

Alrighty

I did have a more elaborate response at the bottom of the last page concerning the Fourth Gospel's sources: http://www.christianforums.com/t1555187-1111-or-111-3.html&page=28

There is a -phrase- that translates as "I am" : 'ena' 'na.

The rest of what I said is at that last post.

Peace,
-Steve-o

 

[S Walch]

So, Jesus could have said in Aramaic "Truly, Truly, before Abraham was, I AM" in Aramaic, but would have said "ena 'na" when saying I AM ?

Well, we do get the phrase "Truly, Truly before Abraham was, I AM!" from the greek manuscripts of the NT, and I do beleive there is a greek word used for I AM, meaning YHWH.

 

[humblemuslim]

Well, we do get the phrase "Truly, Truly before Abraham was, I AM!" from the greek manuscripts of the NT, and I do beleive there is a greek word used for I AM, meaning YHWH.

Even if this were the case you couldn't simply assume the original verison that Jesus spoke had the same significance. We don't know whether any basis came along for the ride.

peace

 

[S Walch]

Erm yes you can, as easily seen by the Jewish Priests respone to his saying of I AM, and applying I AM to himself.

 

[The Thadman]

Erm yes you can, as easily seen by the Jewish Priests respone to his saying of I AM, and applying I AM to himself.

1) Jesus wasn't speaking to the priests The priests were the Saducees, the Zadokites, not the Pharisees.

2) Applying the "I am" to himself is without warrant. They picked up stones to throw at him for escalating the debate into insult and mockery. Read and check up on the article I'm writing over at AramaicNT.org:

http://www.AramaicNT.org/NEW/index.php?p=60

The True Children of Abraham Debate is comprised of Dialogue and Fourth Gospel Author sources. It is a redacted form.

3) The only form where egô emi "I am" has theological implications is in the LXX, the Septuagint. Jesus did not speak Greek, and did not have access to it to read (as he traveled from Aramaic speaking city to Aramaic speaking city). 'Ena' 'na' is a phrase used everywhere in Aramaic, and does not have theological significance that you are trying to ascribe to it. God's name is not "I AM" it's "He is / he will be." YHWH is in the 3rd-person singular imperfect of hayah, not the 1st person singular perfect.

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[S Walch]

Actually, Jesus did speak greek, as he would have spoken greek to the roman officials and to the Greek woman in Mark 7.

 

[The Thadman]

Actually, Jesus did speak greek, as he would have spoken greek to the roman officials and to the Greek woman in Mark 7.

1) The Roman Officials posted in Aramaic speaking cities would have known Aramaic, too. For example:

http://www.aramaicnt.org/NEW/index.php?p=27

2) She was a Syro-Phonecian GENTILE. Syria was the homeplace of SYRIAC, a modern ARAMAIC dialect.

3) The True Children of Abraham Debate COULD NOT have been in Greek. There are too many Aramaic puns.

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[S Walch]

But who's to say he didn't speak greek to other Roman officials also, other than the one depicted in John's Gospel?

Some good arguments for Jesus speaking Greek

http://www.asa3.org/archive/asa/199605/0034.html

 

[The Thadman]

But who's to say he didn't speak greek to other Roman officials also, other than the one depicted in John's Gospel?

Some good arguments for Jesus speaking Greek

http://www.asa3.org/archive/asa/199605/0034.html

I'm currently in the middle of a lengthy refutation of all of the claims in that article, as they are, when looked at with a critical eye, superficial and of little substance.

The fact remains that Jesus, in the pericope of the True Children of Abraham Debate, was speaking in Aramaic. The text, itself, does not allow for any other language due to the elaborate puns that he employs. This means that within the conversation, he would have used 'ena' 'na' which does not have theological connotations.

Peace!
-Steve-o