“Where to look for genuine ecumenism?”

[Michie]

Where to look for genuine ecumenism?” — Guest Article by Eastern Orthodox Theologian​

PETER KWASNIEWSKI




NLM is grateful to Bishop Athanasius Schneider for giving us permission to publish this English translation of the following essay, written by a theologian with whom he is in friendly contact. It goes without saying that we do not endorse some of the ecclesiological claims contained herein, but the perspective is one that NLM is broadly sympathetic with. —PAK

“Where to look for genuine ecumenism?”
A reflection on the Roman Catholic Church’s liturgical reforms in an ecumenical perspective

Alexander Adomenas, Master of Theology

“That they may all be one” (John 17, 21)—these words of our Divine Teacher have been resounding with pain in the hearts of Christians for many centuries. Unfortunately, we did not fulfill the commandment of our Lord and were divided. The twentieth century showed that it is now the time, according to the word of Ecclesiastes, to “gather stones” (3, 5), the stones we Christians have scattered for twenty centuries. The holy Pope Gregory the Great (who in the East bears the name Dialogos) explains these words as follows: “The more the end of the world approaches, the more necessary it is that living stones be gathered for a heavenly building, until the building of our Jerusalem reaches its measure.” [1]For St. Gregory, “gathering stones” means gathering the people into the one Church of Christ.

However, we are well aware that one can “gather stones” in different ways, and, by trying to take up everything, one can be overburdened by their weight and lose even what one has collected. This article in the form of a reflection is a modest attempt by an Orthodox theologian to think about what path can be chosen for this “gathering of stones.”

The history of relations between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, unfortunately, is very sad. Mutual accusations, divergence at times in petty issues—all this happened. I will not give a theological assessment of these disagreements and centuries-old disputes.

Let me just say that what unites us is much more than what divides us. And now is precisely the time when, in the face of the ever-increasing secularization of mankind and the challenges the modern world poses to believers, we must find common ground so that everyone knows that we are disciples of Christ—Love Incarnate (cf. John 13, 35).

Over the past one hundred years, this attempt to reconcile Orthodoxy and Catholicism has received the name of the “ecumenical movement.” Many models of dialogue within this movement have been proposed, but all of them, unfortunately, have either reached or are reaching a dead end. The problem, in my opinion, is the wrong approach to the problem as such. Or rather, there is no core around which a dialogue can be built. And it seems to me that the ideal solution here is to appeal to a common heritage: the living history of the Church in the Holy Spirit.

Continued below.

“Where to look for genuine ecumenism?” — Guest Article by Eastern Orthodox Theologian

Sacred liturgy and liturgical arts. Liturgical history and theology. The movements for the Usus Antiquior and Reform of the Reform.

www.newliturgicalmovement.org

 

[The Liturgist]

Very interesting. I admire Fr. Peter for his stalwart defense of the Traditional Latin Mass.

By the way, Traditiones Custodes has, more than any other action of Pope Francis, I think, reduced the likelihood of ecumenical reconciliation between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches happening before 2054, or between Rome and the Oriental Orthodox happening before 2051, which is a tragedy, as I hate the idea of the former schism lasting longer than a thousand years, and the latter schism lasting longer than sixteen hundred years.

 

[The Liturgist]

Also, thank you for posting articles like this for us in here, the center of ecumenical discussions between the liturgical churches on ChristianForums.

 

[tampasteve]

reconciliation between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches happening before 2054, or between Rome and the Oriental Orthodox happening before 2051

Generally I agree, the suppression of the TLM is a travesty not easily reversed. May I ask how you came to these dates?

 

[The Liturgist]

Generally I agree, the suppression of the TLM is a travesty not easily reversed. May I ask how you came to these dates?

2054 is the 1,000th anniversary of the excommunication of the Patriarch of Constantinople, and 2051 is the 1,100th anniversary of the schism with the Oriental Orthodox.

 

[The Liturgist]

By the way, forgive me for not immediately replying, I may have been ill or did not notice your posts.

 

[jas3]

How, conceptually, are the authorities in the Catholic Church in our day any different from those who forced the marginalization of the Old Believers in Russia?

The motivation for the Nikonian Reforms, from what I've read, was that supposedly there had been errors introduced into the liturgical texts used in Russia from when they were originally translated from Greek, and the move to use Greek liturgical forms was supposed to be a move to correct those errors. For all the controversy surrounding the schism of the Old Believers, I think that's still a much more defensible motivation that trying to "modernize" the liturgy by increasing lay participation, abandoning the liturgical language, reducing the distinction between the priest and the laity, etc.

 

[The Liturgist]

The motivation for the Nikonian Reforms, from what I've read, was that supposedly there had been errors introduced into the liturgical texts used in Russia from when they were originally translated from Greek, and the move to use Greek liturgical forms was supposed to be a move to correct those errors. For all the controversy surrounding the schism of the Old Believers, I think that's still a much more defensible motivation that trying to "modernize" the liturgy by increasing lay participation, abandoning the liturgical language, reducing the distinction between the priest and the laity, etc.

Well done, I couldn’t have answered it better myself. Indeed you literally expressed my actual view, more or less.

In my view the main error of Nikon and especially Czar Peter was to enforce the reforms and subjugate the Old Believers with violence, which justified their schism, which remained justified in its mild, liturgical, priestly forms until the formation of the Edinovertsy and also groups in the Romanian and Constantinopolitan churches, which restored adherence to the older version of the Typikon as an option for canonical Russian Orthodoxy

Now I personally prefer the Nikonian version of the liturgy, mainly because of the gorgeous music composed for it in starting in the 18th century by the likes of Bortinansky, Chesnokov, Rachmaninoff, Gretchninov, Vedel and countless other very talented Russian and Ukrainian composers, but I do love the Old Rite communities as well, for example, the Church of the Nativity in Erie, PA, whose members have been very generous to me; when I ordered a replacement copy of a book and a lestovka as I thought I had lost them, due to a glitch on their end I wound up with two replacements, and I found the original, and they let me keep the extra material, and so I donated the extra books to my local ROCOR parish and gave the lestovka to a friend.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Very interesting. I admire Fr. Peter for his stalwart defense of the Traditional Latin Mass.

By the way, Traditiones Custodes has, more than any other action of Pope Francis, I think, reduced the likelihood of ecumenical reconciliation between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches happening before 2054, or between Rome and the Oriental Orthodox happening before 2051, which is a tragedy, as I hate the idea of the former schism lasting longer than a thousand years, and the latter schism lasting longer than sixteen hundred years.

Back in October of 2023 that was true. But then Fiducia supplicans was released in December 2023. That has (quite understandably) set back the likelihood of ecumenical reconciliation I think even more. The Coptic reaction has been to suspend further dialogue. The Russian Orthodox reaction was already one of (quite understandable) shock. Making a mess of liturgy was bad enough. Now making a mess of moral teaching, where Catholic teaching was once upon a time rock solid, is a significant body blow to such ecumenism. It will take generations to fix, presuming the next pope undoes both Fiducia supplicans and Traditiones custodes.

But on a much brighter note, ecumenical relations between the Church of England and the Catholic Church are going along swimmingly. I suspect any day now the Catholic Church will be asking join the Church of England. There are only a few minor hurdles to work out, which may be resolved in Synod 2024.

 

[The Liturgist]

Back in October of 2023 that was true. But then Fiducia supplicans was released in December 2023. That has (quite understandably) set back the likelihood of ecumenical reconciliation I think even more. The Coptic reaction has been to suspend further dialogue. The Russian Orthodox reaction was already one of (quite understandable) shock. Making a mess of liturgy was bad enough. Now making a mess of moral teaching, where Catholic teaching was once upon a time rock solid, is a significant body blow to such ecumenism. It will take generations to fix, presuming the next pope undoes both Fiducia supplicans and Traditiones custodes.

But on a much brighter note, ecumenical relations between the Church of England and the Catholic Church are going along swimmingly. I suspect any day now the Catholic Church will be asking join the Church of England. There are only a few minor hurdles to work out, which may be resolved in Synod 2024.

Indeed, Fiducia Supplicans through a spanner in the works.

 

[com7fy8]

Alexander Adomenas, Master of Theology

“That they may all be one” (John 17, 21)—these words of our Divine Teacher have been resounding with pain in the hearts of Christians for many centuries.

Jesus has prayed that we will be made perfect in one. And what Jesus prays is guaranteed, isn't it?

But there are people who look for outward showing of unity; and so they are disappointed.

 

[Andrewn]

Coptic Church cuts theological dialogue with Catholics; says blessing gays ‘unacceptable’

One of the most influential Oriental Orthodox Churches has suspended theological dialogue with the Catholic Church and reaffirmed its opposition to “all forms of homosexual relationships.”

cruxnow.com

 

[Pioneer3mm]

I remember a fellow at the seminar..many years ago.
---
He was involved in Ecumenism/movement..for years.
- It seemed..he was worn out & discouraged.
---
Wikipedia has an interesting/informative article on..
- 'Ecumenism'

 

[chevyontheriver]

Indeed, Fiducia Supplicans through a spanner in the works.

Some Vatican official said he believed this would only be a temporary setback. Ha! Temporary as in another 500 years if only the next pope quickly undoes what the pope Francis crew has visited upon us.

I’ll bet that Vatican official was of the opinion that the Copts would eventually come around to blessing sin.

 

[The Liturgist]

Some Vatican official said he believed this would only be a temporary setback. Ha! Temporary as in another 500 years if only the next pope quickly undoes what the pope Francis crew has visited upon us.

I’ll bet that Vatican official was of the opinion that the Copts would eventually come around to blessing sin.

That’s not going to happen, the Copts would rather die than support fiducia supplicans. Indeed they have lived under Islamic oppression for most of their history anyway, and Byzantine oppression before then.

 

[chevyontheriver]

That’s not going to happen, the Copts would rather die than support fiducia supplicans. Indeed they have lived under Islamic oppression for most of their history anyway, and Byzantine oppression before then.

Lots of Catholics, sadly not all, will also refuse to support Fiducia supplicans. It's just not Catholic. It's not Christian. We are sad to see the Copts stopping ecumenical relations with the Catholic Church but agree with the Copts in doing so. We expect it likely that the other Orthodox will do the same. And some evangelical groups too, at least those not already sold out to gender madness.

Will it make any difference? Nope. Not this year. Not until we get a new and better pope.. If we are so blessed. From the Catholic side this can be fixed in a matter of a week by a new pope. All he has to do is withdraw it for further study and revision and then bury it with a quick announcement that it is no longer acceptable as written. But will those glacially slowly developed ecumenical relations be repaired in a week? Decades probably, or even centuries. That's the sad part here. Happy the Copts acted quickly. Sad that the damage will not be overcome in my lifetime. Such a mess. Hagan Lio!