“We have met the enemy and he is us.” Walt Kelly via Pogo

[section9+1]

V. 22 To Christians, about Christians and for Christians.

 

[SimplyMe]

I think I'll pass on your version. Sodom is well known for its abominations.

It is not my version, it is what the Bible states. This modern idea (last 500ish) years that it is talking about homosexual sex is the flawed thinking; this is particularly true when you realize that raping men had a specific message in the ancient world -- it clearly was meant to convey the message that they were nothing more than "property" and were not actually men. Rape was commonly used in ancient times to show dominance and control.

It is also worthwhile to compare it to Judges 19; where you have almost the exact same story, but with an Israelite (in a city of Israel). A Levite was traveling with his concubine and shows up in the city of Gibeah. Under the custom of the time, they went to the city square -- travelers would go there and men of the city were expected to offer them shelter for the night in their homes, but no one offered them a room. Finally, that evening, an old man coming home offered them a room. That night, the men of the city showed up at the door and demanded the Levite be turned over to them so they could rape him. In the end, the Levite gave the men his concubine and the old man offered his daughter. They refused the daughter (much as in Sodom the crowd refused Lot's daughters) but raped the concubine all night long, with her dying in the morning.

This is essentially the Sodom story repeated but with two differences; there is more detail give and the fact the angels weren't traveling with a woman. The fact that in the Judges story the Bible specifically point out that the Levite was not offered a place to stay is telling -- these people were not welcome in the city (and not being welcomed in a city for the night could often mean death). Next, they show up demanding the travelers be turned over to them "for sex." Notice, just like in the Sodom story, they demand sex with the stranger.

In both cases, the man of the city offers his own daughter(s) but that is refused -- if the men were just after sex, why would they refuse? I know one common claim is that it is solely they want "homosexual sex" but, this story shows that isn't true -- the Levite offers his concubine and that is accepted. The issue isn't that they don't want the woman -- as I mention above, the issue is "dominance and control" -- preferably, they rape the man to show he is little better than property, but it works almost as well to "destroy" his property. He isn't really a man if he can't protect his property, and by abusing his property they show their dominance over the traveler. The lesson in the Sodom story, and repeated in the story in Judges, is not against homosexual sex. The lesson is that we are to love our neighbor -- again, the second commandment -- to not be inhospitable and uncaring to our fellow man.

Beyond that, again, realize that it talks of "abominations" -- he wasn't talking about a sole sin of Sodom when mentioning abominations; rather, he's making the point that this was a wicked society.

 

[zephcom]

V. 22 To Christians, about Christians and for Christians.

Verse 22: "22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."

It does NOT say, "22 For as in Adam all Christians die, so in Christ all Christians will be made alive."

I understand this is difficult for people who have been indoctrinated by the modern religion, but it actually means exactly what it says. Christians do not have a duty to 'save' people. Jesus already did that.

They have a duty to Jesus to obey His Two Commandments.

 

[joshua 1 9]

That is what Make America Great Again is all about.

This is a new election and the new promise is to make: "America safer, and stronger, and greater than ever before."

 

[joshua 1 9]

Christians do not have a duty to 'save' people. Jesus already did that.

Jesus said "τετέλεσται" (tetelestai) (it is finished). God is infinite and God is a singularity. We are finite and we are a dichotomy. We have to become as He is. There is decay and corruption in all of Creation. This is why we are told: Romans 8:21 "creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Rev 21:1 "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth". This is what the resurrection is all about: 1cor15:52 "the dead will be raised imperishable".

 

[section9+1]

v. 22 All in Christ will be made alive. IN CHRIST. So in Christ means Christians. Gal. 3:26-28; 1Peter 5:14; Phil. 1:1; Ro. 8:1; Col. 3:3; Eph. 2:13; etc. And if you are not in Christ, Paul is not talking to you or about you. And we know what it means to be in Christ. Even in the same chapter Paul makes distinctions between the saved and unsaved. If you say all are restored to a pre-fall existence, then you can't even get through that chapter without inconsistencies.

 

[zephcom]

v. 22 All in Christ will be made alive. IN CHRIST. So in Christ means Christians. Gal. 3:26-28; 1Peter 5:14; Phil. 1:1; Ro. 8:1; Col. 3:3; Eph. 2:13; etc. And if you are not in Christ, Paul is not talking to you or about you. And we know what it means to be in Christ. Even in the same chapter Paul makes distinctions between the saved and unsaved. If you say all are restored to a pre-fall existence, then you can't even get through that chapter without inconsistencies.

Typically when I discuss this chapter with Christians they either add words to the passage to make it fit their preconceived understanding of Christianity or they rush out to cherry pick other passages from the Bible as if they can use the Bible to make the Bible wrong. You have done both.

That entire chapter holds some interesting statements from Paul which are counter to what modern Christianity teaches. There does seem, however, that Paul appears to make a distinction between a group he calls the 'first fruits' and those who 'belong' to Jesus. Perhaps that means Christians will get to choose the best houses in the Kingdom before the riffraff gets there.

Oh, and I found it interesting that Paul supported baptizing the dead. I don't think that is part of modern Christianity.

 

[section9+1]

The riffraff won't get there, period.

 

[zephcom]

The riffraff won't get there, period.

I'm sure it will be a great disappointment if you are wrong.

 

[section9+1]

I'm not infallible but I wouldn't bank too much on heaven if I were you.

 

[Speedwell]

I'm not infallible but I wouldn't bank too much on heaven if I were you.

Alas, many of us cannot now, since we have just been denounced by the spiritual adviser to the Trump administration as not "real" Christians.

 

[zephcom]

I'm not infallible but I wouldn't bank too much on heaven if I were you.

Frankly, I don't think it would be any fun anyway being someplace where everyone disliked me.

On the other hand, my greatest fear is being sent to hell and find out my new roommate is a Christian and I have to listen to him for eternity whining about how he wasn't supposed to be there.

 

[section9+1]

Keep the first thought. As for the second, I doubt there will be any roommates to deal with in hell.

 

[zephcom]

Keep the first thought. As for the second, I doubt there will be any roommates to deal with in hell.

Remember the warning from Jesus about those who say, "Lord, Lord"?

 

[Pommer]

The riffraff won't get there, period.

I think that you’re going to see a lot of people in heaven who “don’t belong”, but please, take it easy on God!

 

[rambot]

Boomers are dying off; Trump is a old man. It won't be long before an entirely new generation will be at the wheel. Then the restraints on the new Sodom will be removed and the world can continue on unabated.

The new Sodom is being financed by Trump.

 

[section9+1]

The new Sodom is being financed by Trump.

Whatever