“Orthodox lay chaplain”

[rusmeister]

Can anybody tell me what a “lay chaplain” is? I know that “chaplain” is a Western term, and to the best of my knowledge, we have accommodated the use of the term in reference to priests serving among military forces, as our own Fr Matt does, though the word is alien, again, to the best of my knowledge, within our Tradition. And so “lay chaplain” sounds like a flat contradiction in terms. If it doesn’t involve priestly, sacramental duties, why would people insist on such a term? Certainly it doesn’t exist in Russian.

I got this on its etymology:
https://www.etymonline.com/word/chaplain

 

[Pavel Mosko]

And so “lay chaplain” sounds like a flat contradiction in terms. If it doesn’t involve priestly, sacramental duties, why would people insist on such a term? Certainly it doesn’t exist in Russian.

Back in 1996 when I was a part time seminary student I learned that some companies have employed chaplains in the US as another way of taking care of their employees, similar to what is done for mental health professionals since the spiritual life is important to things like grieving and mental health.

Role of a Chaplain | Employee Care Services | Marketplace Chaplains

@rusmeister I think the link description fits, they basically are using "Chaplain" as a term for a person that is kind of like A Social worker or counselor. I almost think lay counselor might be better but maybe they are afraid of setting of alarms with state regulators thinking you have people who are doing the work of mental health counselors without the training and certification.

 

[archer75]

Where did you see this term?

My understanding is that a chaplain doesn't have to be a priest. A Buddhist mork or lay advisor might be a chaplain for Buddhists, their local spiritual advisor.

In an Orthodox context, maybe some Orthodox layperson could have a blessing to act as senior reader for and "advertise" some part of the prayer cycle. And in the absence of a priest, that person might (for the organization) be the Orthodox "chaplain". Obviously not with sacramental duties, but with the recognition of the Church and the military or other non-Orthodox organization in which this chaplain serves.

so:

lay - not ordained to any major order of the clergy

chaplain - has a blessing to serve as the chaplain

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Well I am a lay chaplain and here is the story.

To work as any kind of chaplain in a clinical setting one needs a year of clinical Pastoral Education, a Masters degree in Theology and ecclesiastical endorsement. Then one can get certification in either the Association of Professional Chaplains or a group more closely tied to a church like the National Association of catholic Chaplains, or Jewish chaplains.

A hospital or clinic wants a certified chaplain. Ordination is not required but endorsement is. And the training deals with a lot more than providing sacraments. In fact, most people in the hospital are not of the same church as the chaplain so sacraments are off the table. That does not mean that a chaplain cannot help a person of any faith or no faith in their healthcare crisis.

Does that help?

https://www.professionalchaplains.org/
The National Association of Catholic Chaplains

 

[ArmyMatt]

Can anybody tell me what a “lay chaplain” is? I know that “chaplain” is a Western term, and to the best of my knowledge, we have accommodated the use of the term in reference to priests serving among military forces, as our own Fr Matt does, though the word is alien, again, to the best of my knowledge, within our Tradition. And so “lay chaplain” sounds like a flat contradiction in terms. If it doesn’t involve priestly, sacramental duties, why would people insist on such a term? Certainly it doesn’t exist in Russian.

I got this on its etymology:
https://www.etymonline.com/word/chaplain

well, chaplains specifically are those who provide ministry in an institutional setting (military, hospital, police, etc.). historically they were ordained pastors, but that has broadened as some religions don’t have ordained clergy.

and on a sidebar, the term might be western, but it’s Orthodox. it comes from the pre-Schism priests in France who would guard the reliquary that contained the cape that St Martin of Tours offered Christ.

 

[rusmeister]

well, chaplains specifically are those who provide ministry in an institutional setting (military, hospital, police, etc.). historically they were ordained pastors, but that has broadened as some religions don’t have ordained clergy.

and on a sidebar, the term might be western, but it’s Orthodox. it comes from the pre-Schism priests in France who would guard the reliquary that contained the cape that St Martin of Tours offered Christ.

Thank

Well I am a lay chaplain and here is the story.

To work as any kind of chaplain in a clinical setting one needs a year of clinical Pastoral Education, a Masters degree in Theology and ecclesiastical endorsement. Then one can get certification in either the Association of Professional Chaplains or a group more closely tied to a church like the National Association of catholic Chaplains, or Jewish chaplains.

A hospital or clinic wants a certified chaplain. Ordination is not required but endorsement is. And the training deals with a lot more than providing sacraments. In fact, most people in the hospital are not of the same church as the chaplain so sacraments are off the table. That does not mean that a chaplain cannot help a person of any faith or no faith in their healthcare crisis.

Does that help?

https://www.professionalchaplains.org/
The National Association of Catholic Chaplains

Thank you, but I am interested in use of the term by Orthodox.

 

[rusmeister]

well, chaplains specifically are those who provide ministry in an institutional setting (military, hospital, police, etc.). historically they were ordained pastors, but that has broadened as some religions don’t have ordained clergy.

and on a sidebar, the term might be western, but it’s Orthodox. it comes from the pre-Schism priests in France who would guard the reliquary that contained the cape that St Martin of Tours offered Christ.

Thanks!
The historical use you describe is obviously super-limited to a very particular place and time.
It is its historical use as referring to ordained clergy that seems to matter the most to me. If its use has broadened, that should be N/A to us, as we DO have ordained clergy (that’s why it seems natural that when you say you are an Orthodox chaplain, I can take for granted that you are a priest).

But that makes the expression “Orthodox lay chaplain” come across as a contradiction in terms. And if the person in question is a woman, all the more so. Such a usage smells like a camel’s nose in the tent, a foot in the door, pushing the envelope on the issue of female clergy. Such a person might be doing great good in an institution; I just challenge recognizing such people as “chaplains”, unless we admit what you just denied, that the word doesn’t express anything especially Orthodox.

So “Orthodox lay (profession)” - yes, “non-Orthodox lay chaplain” - maybe (sounds contradictory to me, but, not my monkeys, not my circus), but “Orthodox lay chaplain” -no.

Defenses of the expression in a specifically Orthodox context don’t seem terribly convincing to me. Though I’m still open to hearing them.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank

you’re welcome

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thanks!
The historical use you describe is obviously super-limited to a very particular place and time.
It is its historical use as referring to ordained clergy that seems to matter the most to me. If its use has broadened, that should be N/A to us, as we DO have ordained clergy (that’s why it seems natural that when you say you are an Orthodox chaplain, I can take for granted that you are a priest).

But that makes the expression “Orthodox lay chaplain” come across as a contradiction in terms. And if the person in question is a woman, all the more so. Such a usage smells like a camel’s nose in the tent, a foot in the door, pushing the envelope on the issue of female clergy. Such a person might be doing great good in an institution; I just challenge recognizing such people as “chaplains”, unless we admit what you just denied, that the word doesn’t express anything especially Orthodox.

So “Orthodox lay (profession)” - yes, “non-Orthodox lay chaplain” - maybe (sounds contradictory to me, but, not my monkeys, not my circus), but “Orthodox lay chaplain” -no.

Defenses of the expression in a specifically Orthodox context don’t seem terribly convincing to me. Though I’m still open to hearing them.

I’m not trying to convince you, just explaining where the expression comes from.

 

[archer75]

How about anyone who doesn't like the term just says "Orthodox layperson with a blessing to lead reader's services in a given context" every time it comes up?

 

[rusmeister]

How about anyone who doesn't like the term just says "Orthodox layperson with a blessing to lead reader's services in a given context" every time it comes up?

Well, the question is, do I have a point or not? Do people generally think that a “chaplain” is a pastor or priest, or not? What is the common public perception? If they do, then does not calling someone a chaplain who can or should not be a pastor or priest push the envelope in a bad direction, one that could easily cross the line in challenging our Tradition, however well-intentioned?

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

Morning (GreekOrthodox here but my login no longer works). When someone says they are a chaplain, I assume they are NOT ordained clergy unless they have a formal title such as Rev., Rabbi, what have you. As Akita explained hospital chaplains are trained to help anyone with spiritual matters. They receive an endorsement as a chaplain from that particular faith group and typically are not ordained ministers. Their masters degrees may not be a Divinity degree, but rather Religious Studies with a side helping of psychology or social services. Very often they are available for crisis interventions for patients or staff regardless of religious backgrounds.

One of my classmates from Holy Cross got her Masters in Pastoral Counseling and serves as a chaplain at a VA Hospital and St. Jude's Children's hospital. She is now getting her PhD in pediatric bioethics. So "lay chaplain" works for me in that they are specifically not ordained.

I've worked with Boy Scout chaplains. It is very rare that they are ordained but might serve in a church as an elder or some other leadership position.

TL; DR - I assume a chaplain is laity but serving in some spiritual capacity for an organization. If they are ordained, they will let me know.

 

[ArmyMatt]

One of my classmates from Holy Cross got her Masters in Pastoral Counseling and serves as a chaplain at a VA Hospital and St. Jude's Children's hospital. She is now getting her PhD in pediatric bioethics. So "lay chaplain" works for me in that they are specifically not ordained.

when were you at HC? that sounds familiar to me from one of the females I spoke to on an OISM trip.

where is she getting her PhD?

feel free to pm me if you want your time there to be private.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I was cleaning out files and happened to find an old statement. At least in the Roman Catholic Church the bishops endorse for "lay ecclesial health care ministry" rather than for "chaplain". The certifying association accepts that and certifies as "Chaplain". But as far as the Church is concerned, still Lay Ecclesial Minister. Perhaps the Orthodox Church has the same stance.

Use of Title "Chaplain" in Pastoral Care Ministry - The National Association of Catholic Chaplains

 

[rusmeister]

Morning (GreekOrthodox here but my login no longer works). When someone says they are a chaplain, I assume they are NOT ordained clergy unless they have a formal title such as Rev., Rabbi, what have you. As Akita explained hospital chaplains are trained to help anyone with spiritual matters. They receive an endorsement as a chaplain from that particular faith group and typically are not ordained ministers. Their masters degrees may not be a Divinity degree, but rather Religious Studies with a side helping of psychology or social services. Very often they are available for crisis interventions for patients or staff regardless of religious backgrounds.

One of my classmates from Holy Cross got her Masters in Pastoral Counseling and serves as a chaplain at a VA Hospital and St. Jude's Children's hospital. She is now getting her PhD in pediatric bioethics. So "lay chaplain" works for me in that they are specifically not ordained.

I've worked with Boy Scout chaplains. It is very rare that they are ordained but might serve in a church as an elder or some other leadership position.

TL; DR - I assume a chaplain is laity but serving in some spiritual capacity for an organization. If they are ordained, they will let me know.

This attitude is news to me in general. And it definitely sounds, as you describe it, in opposition to our Tradition.

As Akita explained hospital chaplains are trained to help anyone with spiritual matters.

In Orthodox Tradition, who i “trained to help anyone with spiritual matters”? Even lay spiritual fathers are specific to individuals, and not to anyone. The people we send people to with specifically spiritual problems are... priests. Ordained clergy. That’s it, and that’s what, in all my experience and knowledge, the only Orthodox usage of the word “chaplain”, until the day before yesterday, I guess.

I began with just a sense of suspicion about this usage, which I saw describing a woman speaking on AFR, and from what you are telling me, that suspicion is hardening. I have the advantage of being able to compare with a non-Western European language, and the translation of the word into Russian is going to be “svyashennik” (priest).

Looks like a bait-and-switch to me. I think people horribly underestimate the danger of admitting language change, and being generally unaware that it really has changed, and that the change has real effects on how people see and understand things. The danger is that language is now being used to falsify things everywhere.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Even lay spiritual fathers are specific to individuals, and not to anyone. The people we send people to with specifically spiritual problems are... priests. Ordained clergy.

not always.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

This kind of sounds to me like those lay communion distributers in the Latin church.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

This attitude is news to me in general. And it definitely sounds, as you describe it, in opposition to our Tradition.

I work and live in 21st century America, not 19th century Russia.

It was a horrible mistake for me to log back in here. I'll let the admins know to ban my account.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

This attitude is news to me in general. And it definitely sounds, as you describe it, in opposition to our Tradition.


In Orthodox Tradition, who i “trained to help anyone with spiritual matters”? Even lay spiritual fathers are specific to individuals, and not to anyone. The people we send people to with specifically spiritual problems are... priests. Ordained clergy. That’s it, and that’s what, in all my experience and knowledge, the only Orthodox usage of the word “chaplain”, until the day before yesterday, I guess.

I began with just a sense of suspicion about this usage, which I saw describing a woman speaking on AFR, and from what you are telling me, that suspicion is hardening. I have the advantage of being able to compare with a non-Western European language, and the translation of the word into Russian is going to be “svyashennik” (priest).

Looks like a bait-and-switch to me. I think people horribly underestimate the danger of admitting language change, and being generally unaware that it really has changed, and that the change has real effects on how people see and understand things. The danger is that language is now being used to falsify things everywhere.

It very well could be that the Orthodox Church does not endorse lay persons for such ministry. I do not know. I do know that in the Roman Church there simply are not enough priests to cover the ministry.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

In my days in the military and as a military brat, chaplains were always ordained ministers/priests of one religion or denomination or other. It was never some random dude/gal.

Now, there are RP's in the Navy who are enlisted men/women who help the Chaplain with various tasks, but the Chaplain is always an O, so I assume they had to have gone through seminary of some sort.

I guess there could be lay people who went through some seminary who opt to not become ordained, and their seminary degree gives them a leg-up over otherwise degreeless laity.

But, that just seems like a modern thing.

However, St. Makrina the Younger could have been a "lay chaplain" to Ss. Basil and Gregory.. especially St. Basil, but that's stretching it.

The term itself isn't in our tradition.