“Material?”

[SingularityOne]

“We feel empty in our souls because we do not have the Divine consolation. The soul does not rest with any material because it is foreign to its nature. When the soul becomes familiar with God through prayer and a virtuous life, then it rejoices and feels secure and feels God within it."

+Holy Geronda Ephraim of Mt. Athos & Arizona

Edit: I was also reading this yesterday which sparked the question as well “Ecclesiastes Asks the Question, the Gospel Gives the Answer”

Wonder what is entailed in “material?” Does it encompass other human beings or only inanimate objects and animals, plants, etc.?

 

[ArmyMatt]

probably anything created, as the noetic soul is meant to contemplate the Divine directly.

 

[HTacianas]

“We feel empty in our souls because we do not have the Divine consolation. The soul does not rest with any material because it is foreign to its nature. When the soul becomes familiar with God through prayer and a virtuous life, then it rejoices and feels secure and feels God within it."

+Holy Geronda Ephraim of Mt. Athos & Arizona

Edit: I was also reading this yesterday which sparked the question as well “Ecclesiastes Asks the Question, the Gospel Gives the Answer”

Wonder what is entailed in “material?” Does it encompass other human beings or only inanimate objects and animals, plants, etc.?

It sounds like it means "material things" like possessions. Monks give up material things to find the spiritual things and find contentment in it. I suppose it could also mean other people as well. Monks live celibate lives and as Paul said "he who is married cares about the things of the world—how he may please his wife".

 

[SingularityOne]

probably anything created, as the noetic soul is meant to contemplate the Divine directly.

Two-fold question here to that then, father:

1.) what does it mean to contemplate? Is this without thoughts, or with thoughts?

2.) if it’s anything created, then other human beings can’t fulfill that longing that is in the core of our hearts that can only be fulfilled with contemplating the Divine directly?

 

[SingularityOne]

It sounds like it means "material things" like possessions. Monks give up material things to find the spiritual things and find contentment in it. I suppose it could also mean other people as well. Monks live celibate lives and as Paul said "he who is married cares about the things of the world—how he may please his wife".

Yeah, I read it as encompassing both. But, I know my mind can make wrong interpretations so I thought I’d check with y’all here too! Thanks!

 

[Halbhh]

“We feel empty in our souls because we do not have the Divine consolation. The soul does not rest with any material because it is foreign to its nature. When the soul becomes familiar with God through prayer and a virtuous life, then it rejoices and feels secure and feels God within it."

+Holy Geronda Ephraim of Mt. Athos & Arizona

Edit: I was also reading this yesterday which sparked the question as well “Ecclesiastes Asks the Question, the Gospel Gives the Answer”

Wonder what is entailed in “material?” Does it encompass other human beings or only inanimate objects and animals, plants, etc.?

Material means all that exists physically, all aspects of nature, and including every aspect/quality of the body of the person. In other words, we are not our bodies. (as you will recall, Christ reminded us the flesh profits nothing (just zero value) to give us life)

 

[Justin-H.S.]

Material means all that exists physically, all aspects of nature, and including every aspect/quality of the body of the person. In other words, we are not our bodies. (as you will recall, Christ reminded us the flesh profits nothing (just zero value) to give us life)

That ain't Orthodox.

Jesus is as much His Body as He is God. We are as much our bodies as we are spirit.

Edit: Like many Greek words that don't get translated ideally into English, the Holy Elder could've meant to say something else in Greek, but the weakness of the English language translated it to "material?"

 

[Halbhh]

That ain't Orthodox.

Jesus is as much His Body as He is God. We are as much our bodies as we are spirit.

What is your interpretation of John 6:63?

 

[Justin-H.S.]

What is your interpretation of John 6:63?

It's not my place to interpret scripture, but if you wait one I will retrieve what was revealed by the Holy Spirit to the wiser and holy saints before me.

Edit:
“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. - John 6:63

His meaning is, You must hear spiritually what relates to Me, for he who hears carnally is not profited, nor gathers any advantage. It was carnal to question how He came down from heaven, to deem that He was the son of Joseph, to ask, How can he give us His flesh to eat? All this was carnal, when they ought to have understood the matter in a mystical and spiritual sense. But, says some one, how could they understand what the 'eating flesh' might mean? Then it was their duty to wait for the proper time and enquire, and not to abandon Him.

The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life.

That is, they are divine and spiritual, have nothing carnal about them, are not subject to the laws of physical consequence, but are free from any such necessity, are even set above the laws appointed for this world, and have also another and a different meaning. Now as in this passage He said spirit, instead of spiritual, so when He speaks of flesh, He meant not carnal things, but carnally hearing, and alluding at the same time to them, because they ever desired carnal things when they ought to have desired spiritual. For if a man receives them carnally, he profits nothing. What then, is not His flesh, flesh? Most certainly. How then says He, that the flesh profits nothing? He speaks not of His own flesh, (God forbid!) but of those who received His words in a carnal manner. But what is understanding carnally? It is looking merely to what is before our eyes, without imagining anything beyond. This is understanding carnally. But we must not judge thus by sight, but must look into all mysteries with the eyes within. This is seeing spiritually. He that eats not His flesh, and drinks not His blood, has no life in him. How then does the flesh profit nothing, if without it we cannot live? Do you see that the words, the flesh profits nothing, are spoken not of His own flesh, but of carnal hearing?

- St. John Chrysostom

Context matters more instead of taking a verse out and attempting to formulate a doctrine around a single sentence taken from a paragraph.

 

[Halbhh]

It's not my place to interpret scripture, but if you wait one I will retrieve what was revealed by the Holy Spirit to the wiser and holy saints before me.

Ok, I could not find an answer online, as searching about the Orthodox interpretation of John 6:63 brings up a lot about the Eucharist (which I already have the same belief as Orthodox (I'm not protestant either for that matter). It seems to me that John 6:63 is pointing out that ultimately these temporary mortal bodies are not who we are -- we can't rely on our own mortal bodies to bring us to Life, but instead our spirit is who we are, and also only Spirit alone gives life. So, if someone can point out further Orthodox interpretation about John 6:63 that is about this OP topic aspect of the material and the soul, that would be very interesting to me to read. I'll read the link in the OP meanwhile.

 

[Halbhh]

It's not my place to interpret scripture, but if you wait one I will retrieve what was revealed by the Holy Spirit to the wiser and holy saints before me.

Edit:
“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. - John 6:63

His meaning is, You must hear spiritually what relates to Me, for he who hears carnally is not profited, nor gathers any advantage. It was carnal to question how He came down from heaven, to deem that He was the son of Joseph, to ask, How can he give us His flesh to eat? All this was carnal, when they ought to have understood the matter in a mystical and spiritual sense. But, says some one, how could they understand what the 'eating flesh' might mean? Then it was their duty to wait for the proper time and enquire, and not to abandon Him.

The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life.

That is, they are divine and spiritual, have nothing carnal about them, are not subject to the laws of physical consequence, but are free from any such necessity, are even set above the laws appointed for this world, and have also another and a different meaning. Now as in this passage He said spirit, instead of spiritual, so when He speaks of flesh, He meant not carnal things, but carnally hearing, and alluding at the same time to them, because they ever desired carnal things when they ought to have desired spiritual. For if a man receives them carnally, he profits nothing. What then, is not His flesh, flesh? Most certainly. How then says He, that the flesh profits nothing? He speaks not of His own flesh, (God forbid!) but of those who received His words in a carnal manner. But what is understanding carnally? It is looking merely to what is before our eyes, without imagining anything beyond. This is understanding carnally. But we must not judge thus by sight, but must look into all mysteries with the eyes within. This is seeing spiritually. He that eats not His flesh, and drinks not His blood, has no life in him. How then does the flesh profit nothing, if without it we cannot live? Do you see that the words, the flesh profits nothing, are spoken not of His own flesh, but of carnal hearing?

- St. John Chrysostom

Context matters more instead of taking a verse out and attempting to formulate a doctrine around a single sentence taken from a paragraph.

Nice exposition on John 6:63 there. Having given St. John Chrysostom's excellent exposition on it, we are still left with the entirely different topic of the OP question (which is not at all about the Eucharist in any way I can imagine).

In the OP question, we are asked how the soul is separate from the material. I was aiming to just remind of the basic understanding in post #6, which I would expect is also certainly the Orthodox understanding, and would actually love to see how it is worded in an Orthodox wording style of writing it out.

Now, the link in the OP is at least a partial answer also, in that the excellent explanation from Fr. Gennady about the yitron vs the tov is one way of saying much about it.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I'm quit certain Dodge Challenger Scat Packs are not material....

 

[ArmyMatt]

Two-fold question here to that then, father:

1.) what does it mean to contemplate? Is this without thoughts, or with thoughts?

2.) if it’s anything created, then other human beings can’t fulfill that longing that is in the core of our hearts that can only be fulfilled with contemplating the Divine directly?

1. it is beyond thoughts.

2. correct.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Material means all that exists physically, all aspects of nature, and including every aspect/quality of the body of the person. In other words, we are not our bodies. (as you will recall, Christ reminded us the flesh profits nothing (just zero value) to give us life)

we are our bodies. Christ rose in HIS Body. the Resurrection at the End involves our bodies.

 

[Halbhh]

we are our bodies. Christ rose in HIS Body. the Resurrection at the End involves our bodies.

Yes, it's occuring to me that there is a different way of using words here, a language barrier. By 'body' I did not mean Christ's body, nor our own new bodies that we will have in the Life to come.

Instead, in talking about the question in the OP about the soul and the 'material', I'm talking about how our own spirit isn't the same as our own mortal flesh here and now, this temporary mortal body that is only dust and will return to dust.

Also, I enjoyed a lot the link in the OP to Fr. Gennady's about the closely related yitron vs the tov. In that the excellent explanation from Fr. Gennady about the yitron vs the tov is one way of saying much about it how what we need for our Life to come isn't the material stuff of this world. The explanation Gennady gives about Ecclesiastes is quite insightful.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Where's Rus when you need that guy to start quibbling over word meanings and nuances? In this case, we need Rus!

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yes, it's occuring to me that there is a different way of using words here, a language barrier. By 'body' I did not mean Christ's body, nor our own new bodies that we will have in the Life to come.

Instead, in talking about the question in the OP about the soul and the 'material', I'm talking about how our own spirit isn't the same as our own mortal flesh here and now, this temporary mortal body that is only dust and will return to dust.

Also, I enjoyed a lot the link in the OP to Fr. Gennady's about the closely related yitron vs the tov. In that the excellent explanation from Fr. Gennady about the yitron vs the tov is one way of saying much about it how what we need for our Life to come isn't the material stuff of this world. The explanation Gennady gives about Ecclesiastes is quite insightful.

yes, it’s still a material body, just not a fallen material body. Christ still ate, was touched, and had flesh and bones.

 

[Halbhh]

yes, it’s still a material body, just not a fallen material body. Christ still ate, was touched, and had flesh and bones.

Yes, it seems to me that we as we get older will need to remember these fading temporary mortal bodies that gradually fall apart (or even if one doesn't until near the end, same difference) are not really who we are, but we are our soul instead. When these mortal bodies die, we are not dying.

 

[SingularityOne]

1. it is beyond thoughts.

2. correct.

1.) is it the complete trust, in humility, to God’s Providential Care that goes beyond words and desire?

2.) Thanks, that makes sense.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

In the OP question, we are asked how the soul is separate from the material. I was aiming to just remind of the basic understanding in post #6, which I would expect is also certainly the Orthodox understanding, and would actually love to see how it is worded in an Orthodox wording style of writing it out.

I'm no theologian, but in my weak understanding God created the material (the cosmos) and called it good, so I'm not really inclined to dismiss the material outright. Rather sin tainted the material, so it became fallen, but the material can be washed (baptized) in order to reveal the goodness that was underneath. As far as Jesus saying the flesh profits us nothing, I won't even attempt to know what he's talking about. I'm dumb.