• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured “...be in subjection to the governing authorities” Romans 13

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by redleghunter, Jan 26, 2019.

  1. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +24,863
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Here’s the Scripture on the matter:

    Romans 13: NASB
    1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.5Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. (NASB)

    Some would argue we are to obey government and its laws even if they are in opposition to God’s laws and His Righteousness. The following verses in Romans 13 refutes this specious claim:

    8Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

    11Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. 12The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy.14But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts. (NASB)

    So we see Paul teach to obey government and her laws yet in the following verses see God’s laws mentioned and how we are to keep them, above all love our neighbors as ourselves.

    We already know the men and woman of faith throughout Scriptures resisted government and local authorities when wicked laws were enacted. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego disobeyed a clear idolatrous directive:

    Daniel 3: NASB
    8For this reason at that time certain Chaldeans came forward and brought charges against the Jews. 9They responded and said to Nebuchadnezzar the king: “O king, live forever! 10“You, O king, have made a decree that every man who hears the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, and bagpipe and all kinds of music, is to fall down and worship the golden image. 11“But whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire. 12“There are certain Jews whom you have appointed over the administration of the province of Babylon, namely Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego. These men, O king, have disregarded you; they do not serve your gods or worship the golden image which you have set up.”

    13Then Nebuchadnezzar in rage and anger gave orders to bring Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego; then these men were brought before the king.14Nebuchadnezzar responded and said to them, “Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the golden image that I have set up? 15“Now if you are ready, at the moment you hear the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery and bagpipe and all kinds of music, to fall down and worship the image that I have made, very well. But if you do not worship, you will immediately be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire; and what god is there who can deliver you out of my hands?”

    16Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego replied to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter. 17“If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. 18“But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.” (NASB)

    And Peter and John after being ordered by the religious authorities to not preach Christ tell them that is it right to heed them or God:

    Acts 4: NASB
    13Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus. 14And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they had nothing to say in reply. 15But when they had ordered them to leave the Council, they began to confer with one another, 16saying, “What shall we do with these men? For the fact that a noteworthy miracle has taken place through them is apparent to all who live in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it.17“But so that it will not spread any further among the people, let us warn them to speak no longer to any man in this name.” 18And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge; 20for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.” (NASB)

    There are more examples I’m sure other posters will bring up. However, it is abundantly clear that when God’s Law is in tension with the wicked laws of mankind we are not to obey wickedness.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Winner Winner x 3
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. ilovejcsog

    ilovejcsog The way....

    493
    +288
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Single
    "For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God"

    Have you posted this in regards to standing behind our current president?

    To me the paragraph above that you posted is clear. God is in control and if he didn't want the current president in he wouldn't be president. Once they are in office I feel it is sanctioned by God Or at least it is a part of Gods plan and I will support them. I can see the non Christian democrats not supporting but I don't understand how Christian democrats fight to the extent they have with the passages you have posted , in mind.













    't
     
  3. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +24,863
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    This has nothing to do with Trump specifically. It is when the laws of men are at tension or outright opposition. Some say we obey government no matter what based on Romans 13. I’m pointing out that is error.
     
  4. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

    +518
    Canada
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Jesus didn't want His followers including the zealots to rebel but to live and act in an alternative way to mankind. To bow to the governance of God, not man.. but not in outright rebellion. Someone who loves all neighbours as self can hardly be seen as a threat but more as neutral. The whole concept of the Gospel of the Kingdom was complete division between the Kingdom and the world that man has built in our own image. To do so while still in the world could be accomplished by following God's will. Man's will however would be to attack and destroy (shades of the 6 o'clock news)
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
  5. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +24,863
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Good points.

    The dissidence of Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego went against an edict of a king. They broke the law. Do you think Paul in Romans 13 was implying we obey all laws enacted by human governments?
     
  6. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +2,910
    Messianic
    Single
    I think that Romans 13:4 referring to them as servants of God would indicate that he was speaking about religious authorities rather than about civil authorities. During Paul's day, religious authorities made judgements according to God's Law and could punish those that saw as doing wrong, such as in 2 Corinthians 11:24, where five times Paul received 40 lashes minus one.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  7. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

    +556
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    God recognizes that there are some laws that are unjust and immoral. He does not require us to comply with those laws.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  8. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

    +4,815
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Others

    So the king was so impressed with this that he ordered all the kingdom to become Christians, and those who did not were cut up into chunks.

    So if they HAD done as asked, thousands of lives would have been saved. Perhaps some of the people cut into chunky pieces would have converted?

    So these three, who disobeyed government, resulted in 1000's of deaths of pagans, atheists, all other religions, and any that were not sure. I read these three got promoted!

    We all have family members who are not believers. They'd all be "lion food sent to the zoo" in this story. Bony chunks of meat.

    29 Therefore I make a decree, that every people, nation, and language, which speak anything amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made a dunghill; because there is no other god that is able to deliver after this sort.

    30 Then the king promoted Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego in the province of Babylon.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
  9. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

    +4,815
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Others
    Scripture please?
     
  10. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

    +4,815
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Others
    It's only me saying that. But thanks for saying more.

    1 Peter 2,13-18
    17 Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.
    18 Servants, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

    Titus 3,1

    1 Timothy 2,1-3
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
  11. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

    +4,815
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Others
    Nope. Nothing but the people sliced up for not converting to Christianity story?

    Daniel 2:20-21
    1 Timothy 2
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
  12. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

    +4,815
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Others
    Psalms 22
    28 for dominion belongs to the Lord
    and he rules over the nations.
     
  13. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

    +720
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Think about it: God does not want us to sin but allows us to sin, in hopes we will come to our senses and seek His Love/charity and forgiveness.

    Did God want Hitler to rule Germany?
     
  14. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +24,863
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    What? Are you actually taking the side that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were wrong for obeying God?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  15. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +24,863
    United States
    Christian
    Married
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +24,863
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Where was there a decree to follow Christianity or else be chopped up?
     
  17. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +24,863
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    What does that have to do with the subject? Please elaborate.
     
  18. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +24,863
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Did God want Christians to turn in Jews to the Nazis obeying Hitler’s laws?
     
  19. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

    +720
    Non-Denom
    Married
    No
     
  20. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

    +4,815
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Others
    Sure thin':

    Psalms 22
    ...dominion belongs to the Lord
    and he rules over the nations.

    Proverbs 8
    By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just;

    Proverbs 21
    The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord;
    he turns it wherever he will.

    Romans 13
    For there is no authority except from God,
    and those that exist have been instituted by God.

    1 Peter 2
    Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him... Honor the emperor.

    Titus 3
    ...be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work

    Mark 3
    If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

    1 Timothy
    ... I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior

    Daniel 2
    ...Blessed be the name of God forever and ever,
    to whom belong wisdom and might.
    He changes times and seasons;
    he removes kings and sets up kings;
    he gives wisdom to the wise
    and knowledge to those who have understanding;

    Deuteronomy 16
    “You shall appoint judges and officers in all your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment. You shall not pervert justice. You shall not show partiality, and you shall not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and subverts the cause of the righteous. Justice, and only justice, you shall follow, that you may live and inherit the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

    John 19
    Jesus answered him, “You would have
    no authority over me at all
    unless it had been given you from above.
     
Loading...