‘If We Don’t Take a Stand Now’ against Hostility, the Church Could Become ‘Voiceless,’ Pastor Warns

[maxamir]

Several points to address.

1. I did not admit to being an atheist. "Admit" carries the connotation that I was somehow concealing this and had been forced into revealing it. I imparted that information because I felt it important at that point to ensure their was no doubt as to my position in regard to the reality of the Christian God. (Technically I am agnostic in regard to gods, but not in regard to the Christian god as portrayed by most denominations.)

2. Please do not guess at my motives for engaging in discussions on this forum. I have no interest in provocation. I am interested in discussion, in exposure to different opinions, into deepening my knowledge, imparting some of my own. Provocation acts counter to all of these. I would appreciate it if you would retract that personal attack.

3. I have not "confirm(ed) that (I) do not yet know anything about science until (I) first understand why (I) have a conscience". This clause is ambiguous. Do you mean conscience as in "moral sense", or conscience as in "consciousness"? If the former I can confirm that I do know how humans acquired a conscience and that the mechanism is wholly consistent with the God envisaged by many Christian denominations. If you mean the latter, consciousness, that is currently one of the most intriguing and important topics that science is investigating.

4. The administrators of this forum have quite rightly stated that the Christian faith should not be attacked as a fairytale. Would you be willing to accord a similar courtesy in the other direction?

5. There is nothing simplistic about the structure of evolutionary theory , a theory which assembles the work of tens of thousands of intelligent, enthusiastic, hardworking, dedicated investigators (including many, many Christians) , working in dozens of different fields, over the course of more than two centuries, producing millions of scientific papers and developing a well tested, rigorously assessed, soundly validated explanation of the diversity of life on this planet that in its depth and breadth and veracity exceeds by many orders of magnitude any alternative explanations.

6. We can assign our own reasons to what we wish, as a species and as a biosphere, to make of the universe. You seem happy with yours, I am happy with mine. Let's leave it like that.

7. Having just read a further response from you in which you butcher my forum nom de plume, tell me to grow up and repeat the "fairy tale" meme I see little hope that we can have a productive exchange. I would be delighted if you prove me wrong in your reply.

You now admit that you are confused on the existence of God but somehow are sure that you have the right science?

Your worldview can not account for everything being made from nothing for no reason and denies the universal, eternal and immaterial laws that govern all things including the laws of logic by which knowledge is attainable which is why many such as yourself are departing such fallacies that were dreamed up by man who by nature hates God and does anything they can do to avoid the God they know is real and all of their God given senses account for, including the conscience which confirms their moral inability.

You side with those you think they are wise without realising that God uses the foolish things in this world to confound those who think they are wise and hides the truth from the proud such as yourself who think they can put God who is eternal and timeless into a box and deny Him.

You somehow think that truth is based upon consensus but think that the majority of people in this world are deceived by believing in and knowing there is a God just as they know every building has a builder, every painting a painter and every book an author. Even many of those scientists who have studied what they call the Book of Life represented in DNA have come to the same conclusion but God chooses to save some and bring them to the truth while He justly leaves those who hate Him in the dark.

I sincerely pray that you will be humbled to be brought to the knowledge of the truth which is founded in Him who is Truth and hope it doesn't take a tragedy in your life to do so.

 

[maxamir]

That's a different conversation, probably not appropriate here. The short answer is, that not all Christians believe, nor have all Christians ever believed, that the Genesis creation stories need be taken as accurate literal history. No essential doctrines of Christianity depend on it.

Christ believed it and preached from it and therefore to deny Christ is to be an anti-christ and definitely not a Christian.

 

[maxamir]

That's for Jesus to decide on Judgment Day. Or before.

But it's not for you to point your finger at me and denounce me here, right now, as not being Christian because I don't line up with your favored interpretive frame as you apply it to the Bible.

In other words, you don't get to cite here that I'm not a Christian, especially when the only requirement in the New Testament is to ..... what ?

You also don't get to continue doing so because..............it's against CF rules. You do understand what a "rule" is, don't you?

True love warns and Christ did exactly that to many who called Him Lord and said He did not know them.

If you believe in a Christ that is not found in Holy Scripture then you worship a false Christ and are still under the curse. It is best to judge yourself according to Scripture and not the traditions of men.

 

[BCP1928]

Christ believed it and preached from it and therefore to deny Christ is to be an anti-christ and definitely not a Christian.

I believe it and revere Christ's preaching, but that doesn't mean that I have to pay any attention to some rando on the internet with a shallow and theologically inadequate interpretation of God's Word..

 

[Estrid]

Jesus said you shall know them by their fruits and those who foolishly look to fairy tales of men who hate the God they know do not yet know the God of Holy Scripture no matter how holy they may claim to be.

Possibly true but if misapplied to geology,
biology, astronomy etc which are not fairy tales.
great foolishness results.

We know those people by their fruits.
So, presumably, would the God they
claim to represent that way.

 

[Hans Blaster]

it denies the God of the Bible. I'm not sure which god you're referring to but it's not the same one

All sciences ignore the god of the Bible. All of them. It is not a subject for scientific study.

 

[maxamir]

I believe it and revere Christ's preaching, but that doesn't mean that I have to pay any attention to some rando on the internet with a shallow and theologically inadequate interpretation of God's Word..

by admitting you are reversing Christ's preaching is admitting that you are an anti-christ and if you die in your sin you will prove yourself to be a reprobate, never chosen by God for salvation but chosen by Him to glorify His perfectly good, holy, righteous, just and eternal wrath.

 

[BCP1928]

by admitting you are reversing Christ's preaching is admitting that you are an anti-christ and if you die in your sin you will prove yourself to be a reprobate, never chosen by God for salvation but chosen by Him to glorify His perfectly good, holy, righteous, just and eternal wrath.

You don't know what "revere" means?

 

[maxamir]

Possibly true but if misapplied to geology,
biology, astronomy etc which are not fairy tales.
great foolishness results.

We know those people by their fruits.
So, presumably, would the God they
claim to represent that way.

you shall never know any truth and only think all things possible truth until you submit to Him in whom all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are found and is the Way, the TRUTH and the Life.

 

[maxamir]

All sciences ignore the god of the Bible. All of them. It is not a subject for scientific study.

the word science actually means knowledge and the laws of logic which are completely provable, even by your coherent and cognitive words are proof in them self that these and all the laws of science are immaterial, universal and immutable which are unaccountable for in your materialistic worldview.

Please tell me the proof that you have that there is no God.

 

[maxamir]

You don't know what "revere" means?

my apologies, I read your response too quickly, please forgive me.

It seems that there are many who call themselves atheists here and I falsely assumed you were one of them.

 

[Estrid]

You now admit that you are confused on the existence of God but somehow are sure that you have the right science?

Your worldview can not account for everything being made from nothing for no reason and denies the universal, eternal and immaterial laws that govern all things including the laws of logic by which knowledge is attainable which is why many such as yourself are departing such fallacies that were dreamed up by man who by nature hates God and does anything they can do to avoid the God they know is real and all of their God given senses account for, including the conscience which confirms their moral inability.

You side with those you think they are wise without realising that God uses the foolish things in this world to confound those who think they are wise and hides the truth from the proud such as yourself who think they can put God who is eternal and timeless into a box and deny Him.

You somehow think that truth is based upon consensus but think that the majority of people in this world are deceived by believing in and knowing there is a God just as they know every building has a builder, every painting a painter and every book an author. Even many of those scientists who have studied what they call the Book of Life represented in DNA have come to the same conclusion but God chooses to save some and bring them to the truth while He justly leaves those who hate Him in the dark.

I sincerely pray that you will be humbled to be brought to the knowledge of the truth which is founded in Him who is Truth and hope it doesn't take a tragedy in your life to do so.
View attachment 343902

Flew was a christian who fell away in youth
and reverted -as so many do- to his origins.

Philosopher, not a scientist.

Hang out with some philosophy students
they can prove, or disprove anything.

Especially if they get to make up facts as Flew does.


Maybe a leading religious figure. Of atheists ?
Pshaw.

you shall never know any truth and only think all things possible truth until you submit to Him in whom all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are found and is the Way, the TRUTH and the Life.

You may think you like truth but you
Didn't understand a word i said.

The bible shows Pi=3.

So i guess that's Truth, to you.

A Jesuit here in Hong Kong told me God
gave us brains in the expectation we would
USE them.

 

[Hans Blaster]

You're not portraying my God in a God light, because you don't know Him.

I am unfamiliar with the wavelengths of god light, but you are correct in that I never knew god as he did not talk to me.

If you don't serve God, then you're serving Satan by default. Your not smarter or more powerful than Satan, He easily takes those who God gives over to Him. He keeps them as His slaves and trophies.

Again with this false dichotomy. I serve no one. I don't even believe in your Satan. I am a slave to no one. (I've also never met Satan either.)

The reason you never hear predestination preaches, is because you attended one of the 95% Churches which preach a false gospel. God calls the Synagogues of Satan.

Ah the all the other Christians are teaching false religion. I know this notion. Our church would have said the same about yours.

You obviously know nothing about the proven fact of Noah's flood, because you put your faith in pseudo scientists who are Satan's Minions. The same people told you there were only a small number of Neanderthals running around at the time of the flood and you bought that lie as well.

The alleged date of "The Flood" occurs during the middle of several civilization that did not notice that the whole world flooded and everybody died. See, I don't even need geology.

As an Elect Saint of God, I still sin because the old nature hasn't been fully destroyed but it will be when I receive my new perfectly sinless immortal, indestructible body after this one expires.

So you do think you are special. My general assessment of those that think they are special is that they are not. Compensation it would seem.

My God is the only One who possesses all knowledge and wisdom and power, people like Darwin are nothing mor than pond scum in His sight

You're a bit nasty, now aren't you? I'd love to be lumped in with Darwin as a fellow scientist.

 

[maxamir]

Flew was a christian who fell away in youth
and reverted -as so many do- to his origins.

Philosopher, not a scientist.

Hang out with some philosophy students
they can prove, or disprove anything.

Especially if they get to make up facts as Flew does.


Maybe a leading religious figure. Of atheists ?
Pshaw.

You may think you like truth but you
Didn't understand a word i said.

The bible shows Pi=3.

So i guess that's Truth, to you.

A Jesuit here in Hong Kong told me God
gave us brains in the expectation we would
USE them.

Flew never said he was a Christian and typical of people who do not value truth you seek to twist it to whatever gain you may get just like your father the Devil who is the father of lies.

The simplest proof for the existence of God is 1+0=1 but fools like you think the equation is 0+0=1

 

[Hans Blaster]

the word science actually means knowledge and the laws of logic which are completely provable, even by your coherent and cognitive words are proof in them self that these and all the laws of science are immaterial, universal and immutable which are unaccountable for in your materialistic worldview.

That is the etymology of the term, but that is not how it was used here. Science is the process of understanding the natural world. The laws of science do change, because scientists are currently working to improve them.

Please tell me the proof that you have that there is no God.

And why would I waste time with that (and it is forbidden by board rules anyway). It is not a matter of proof, but of lack of belief. I no longer believe in your god, and I never believed in any others, so I do not believe in any god, hence, I am an atheist by definition.

 

[Dan1988]

No Christian ignores the Book of Genesis. Even Christians who accept the theory of evolution believe that the entire Bible is the inspired Word of God.

What your saying doesn't make sense. If Christians believe that the Bible is Gods inspired Word, then claim to believe something that contradicts Gods word. I can't make any sense of that, so if you like to show me what I missing I'd be happy to hear it. If not, then that's OK too

 

[Ophiolite]

You now admit that you are confused on the existence of God but somehow are sure that you have the right science?

You are doubling down on being wrong.

There are no admissions. I'm not confirming something I had hoped to conceal. That would be an admission.​

I am not at all confused on the existence of God. I am as certain as I can be that the Christian God does not exist. I am undecided on the existence of other gods based upon insufficient evidence. There isn't an ounce of confusion there.​

Please desist from these misguided attempts to characterise some of what I say as admissions.​

Your worldview can not account for everything being made from nothing for no reason and denies the universal, eternal and immaterial laws that govern all things including the laws of logic by which knowledge is attainable which is why many such as yourself are departing such fallacies that were dreamed up by man who by nature hates God and does anything they can do to avoid the God they know is real and all of their God given senses account for, including the conscience which confirms their moral inability.

Here you go again telling me what I think. I advise you stop that. You are not at all good at it.

My worldview does not consider everything was made from nothing.​

My wordlview does not exclude the possibility of the universe arriving for a reason. (It probably arose as a consequence.)​

My worldview readily accepts as the best available current explanations/descriptions the universal laws that seem to govern the universe. These are "laws" that have been established by rigorous, detailed, multiply tested research.​

​

The rest of this paragraph sounds more like preaching than an argument, so its difficult to deconstruct. (Hint: this is not an admission that I have reading comprehension difficulties, but a suspicion that your writing skills can be overwhelmed by a tendency to rant.) However:

I see no evidence that the nature of man is to hate God.​

This belief that non-believers in your particular versions of gods secretly do believe in that God would be offensive it were not so sad. But don't let me interrupt your apparent passion for inventing motivations for other people​

I'm comfortable that my moral compass is healthy. I have way to little evidence and way to much respect to post an assessment of where your moral compass stands.​

​

You side with those you think they are wise without realising that God uses the foolish things in this world to confound those who think they are wise and hides the truth from the proud such as yourself who think they can put God who is eternal and timeless into a box and deny Him.

I side with those who provide provisional explanations for aspects of the universe based upon careful observation and experiment, and that takes full cognisance of earlier work on the topic, recognising that their provisional explanation may be incomplete, or wrong. Such cautious, meticulous, organised thinking seems to embody the very definition of wise.

A God that deliberately inserts lies into the world to confound those willing to devote themselves to carefully investigating sounds like a nasty and vindicitve God. Certainly not the loving, caring, compassionate, truthful God I followed when I was a Christian.

I lack the contorted mind skills to allow me to place into a box something I do not think exists. (Hint: that's not an admission. It is an open statement.)

You somehow think that truth is based upon consensus but think that the majority of people in this world are deceived by believing in and knowing there is a God just as they know every building has a builder, every painting a painter and every book an author. Even many of those scientists who have studied what they call the Book of Life represented in DNA have come to the same conclusion but God chooses to save some and bring them to the truth while He justly leaves those who hate Him in the dark.

There you go again! Making up things about what I think.

I don't have beliefs. I consider the concept of belief to be toxic. I have pragmatic acceptance of certain apparent realities.​

I consider the concept of "truth" to be wooly, subject to equivocation, and generally something used to support agendas, or evidence free imaginations.​

In the quantum world some events occur without apparent cause.​

I'm quite good at several things, but hating something I don't think exists is way beyond my pay grade.​

I sincerely pray that you will be humbled to be brought to the knowledge of the truth which is founded in Him who is Truth and hope it doesn't take a tragedy in your life to do so.

I would prefer it if you not pray for me.

If you respond to this post please keep it free of wild guesses as to what I think and what motivates me. It is tiresome to take this amount of time to correct that nonsense. On the other hand if you wish to discuss matters in a calm, logical, agenda free manner, I shall be happy to continue.

 

[Dan1988]

Don't play coy and evasive with me, Dan. You're making an insinuation, one that I can readily reject and, what's more, ignore all the while feeling quite confident that I can continue to do so without any form of consequence. As in, none whatsoever. So, step aside and stop showing us your Dunning-Kruger brand underwear.

JESUS LIVES!!!

I'm just referring you to what the Bible says about what it means to be a Christian. So I'm not pushing my views on you or judging you in any way

 

[Estrid]

Flew never said he was a Christian and typical of people who do not value truth you seek to twist it to whatever gain you may get just like your father the Devil who is the father of lies.

The simplest proof for the existence of God is 1+0=1 but fools like you think the equation is 0+0=1

View attachment 343907

You don't even know your own hero.
Son of a methodist minister, lost his
faith at 15. Just like I said.

You have no way of knowing that
he never said he was Christian. You
made that up.

You also made it up that I think 0 plus 0 is one.
Calling me a fool is probably against rules but
even if not, making things up and name calling only
says something about yourself.

 

[Dan1988]

The entire Bible just might be the
Inspired word of god.

But obvious to all but thee is that your
"infallible" reading is anythjng but
" inspired". Or infallible.

Your weird fantasy of what evolution is
with all its ignorance and falsehoods tells
us all we know about the worth of your
chosen version of " god's word".

I would appreciate it very much if someone would correct me. So far, all I've had is people attacking me personally rather than dealing with the outstanding issues.
That's no way to gain respect or be taken seriously. I'm asking to be corrected but nobody is able to so I have to assume that I'm right and everyone else is wrong.