‘Go to Berkeley’: Ron DeSantis said students seeking ‘woke’ classes should study elsewhere

[wing2000]

I'm not sure who be appointed as the "misinformation czar" in that regard. I would hope it'd be someone neutral, but given Ron's propensity in engaging in the culture war issues, I wouldn't bet money on it...

But I assume that provision is aimed at preventing things like the 1619 Project from being taught as "history".

As a matter of principle, the government has no place for determining what constitutes a distortion of history.

 

[dogs4thewin]

This is an incorrect definition of equity.
It is access to the same opportunities.

that does not mean equality in outcomes. Moreover, I hate to tell people this, but in this fallen world there will NEVER be true equality that is just life and frankly there are some people and some things that equality is just impossible I am 4 11 there is no way I would make a basketball team or another example I have a moderate case of CP due to this I have various issues from seizures, to eyesight, to balance and motor skills that mean I cannot do certain things. These things include basic tasks such as driving and even living alone and managing a household Equality cannot happen in this world in all things.

 

[USincognito]

I assume that provision is aimed at preventing things like the 1619 Project from being taught as "history".

What about the 1619 Project is ahistorical?

 

[USincognito]

How does promoting equity (equality of outcomes)

Wait, do what now? Where's the evidence for the parenthetical comment?

 

[rambot]

that does not mean equality in outcomes.

You are correct. The purpose of it though, is to increase the chances of equality of outcomes for folks who are disadvantaged.
And I don't think that's a bad thing.

Moreover, I hate to tell people this, but in this fallen world there will NEVER be true equality that is just life and frankly there are some people and some things that equality is just impossible I am 4 11 there is no way I would make a basketball team or another example I have a moderate case of CP due to this I have various issues from seizures, to eyesight, to balance and motor skills that mean I cannot do certain things. These things include basic tasks such as driving and even living alone and managing a household Equality cannot happen in this world in all things.

I would argue it's not a good idea to say "since we'll never have true equality, we should not bother trying".

Equity is simple things like handicapped ramps to get into every public facitiliy.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

This is an incorrect definition of equity.
It is access to the same opportunities.

Some of the people promoting it seem to say otherwise.

GW University states the following on their DEI initiatives page:
Equality means each individual or group of people is given the same resources or opportunities. Equity recognizes that each person has different circumstances and allocates the exact resources and opportunities needed to reach an equal outcome.

A DEI consulting firm lists this is in their overview:
Diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) are often treated as a single monolithic objective, rather than separate but mutually reinforcing sets of actions—with diversity and inclusion being necessary prerequisites to achieve equitable outcomes. DEI progress has traditionally been measured based on activities and effort, often with little consideration for actual outcomes achieved. DEI actions should be in service of achieving equal outcomes in the workforce.

The United Way lists it on their DEI page as:
Equity, in its simplest terms as it relates to racial and social justice, means meeting communities where they are and allocating resources and opportunities as needed to create equal outcomes for all community members.

The International Women's Day organization says the following:
Equity recognizes that each person has different circumstances, and allocates the exact resources and opportunities needed to reach an equal outcome.

(I just realized that a lot of orgs must be sharing notes on the matter)

The Human Rights Campaign (HRC) says:
Equity is about everyone achieving equal outcomes. We all have the same value and deserve a good life, but we all start from a different place. We are also all wonderfully different and experience the world in our own unique way. It’s because of these differences that we sometimes need to be treated differently for us all to live safely, healthily, happily…and equally! This means that we need to look at what individual people and communities need in order to achieve equity.


So it would seem as if at least some prominent entities are suggesting that it's very much a "try to ensure equal outcomes" type of thing.

 

[rambot]

Some of the people promoting it seem to say otherwise.

GW University states the following on their DEI initiatives page:
Equality means each individual or group of people is given the same resources or opportunities. Equity recognizes that each person has different circumstances and allocates the exact resources and opportunities needed to reach an equal outcome.

A DEI consulting firm lists this is in their overview:
Diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) are often treated as a single monolithic objective, rather than separate but mutually reinforcing sets of actions—with diversity and inclusion being necessary prerequisites to achieve equitable outcomes. DEI progress has traditionally been measured based on activities and effort, often with little consideration for actual outcomes achieved. DEI actions should be in service of achieving equal outcomes in the workforce.

The United Way lists it on their DEI page as:
Equity, in its simplest terms as it relates to racial and social justice, means meeting communities where they are and allocating resources and opportunities as needed to create equal outcomes for all community members.

The International Women's Day organization says the following:
Equity recognizes that each person has different circumstances, and allocates the exact resources and opportunities needed to reach an equal outcome.

(I just realized that a lot of orgs must be sharing notes on the matter)

The Human Rights Campaign (HRC) says:
Equity is about everyone achieving equal outcomes. We all have the same value and deserve a good life, but we all start from a different place. We are also all wonderfully different and experience the world in our own unique way. It’s because of these differences that we sometimes need to be treated differently for us all to live safely, healthily, happily…and equally! This means that we need to look at what individual people and communities need in order to achieve equity.


So it would seem as if at least some prominent entities are suggesting that it's very much a "try to ensure equal outcomes" type of thing.

It's what you strive for. But you do that by providing equitable supports depending on need.

 

[dogs4thewin]

You are correct. The purpose of it though, is to increase the chances of equality of outcomes for folks who are disadvantaged.
And I don't think that's a bad thing.



I would argue it's not a good idea to say "since we'll never have true equality, we should not bother trying".

Equity is simple things like handicapped ramps to get into every public facitiliy.

As someone who spends the vast majority of her time in public in a wheelchair I am here to tell you that ramp does NOT equal accessible learned that a LONG time ago to the point I would almost whether a place out right tell me a place is not accessible than get there and realize that it is not and be very disappointed because I really wanted to do something at that particular place.

 

[durangodawood]

I think there's a difference between "taking a gender studies class" (on the journey to getting a degree in something more practical, just to get a little variety in there) is different than paying $70k for a graduate degree in Gender Studies.

If that's something that's important to someone, there's plenty of private colleges that I'm sure will still offer degrees in those programs. However, with regards to institutions that are funded in part by state level taxes, those are supposed to be something of an investment for everyone who's chipping in.

One can make a strong practical argument for saying we need nurses, we need teachers, we need engineers, we need doctors & lawyers, accountants, etc... It'd be a little harder to make similar justifications for someone who's graduating with a degree in a niche field with a sub-par job placement rate that doesn't really offer any sort of public good.

And given the subject matter taught in some of those courses, I can understand why conservative parents in Florida may not be crazy about funding those programs. From their perspective, it's "I'm paying money, involuntarily, to help fund programs that are teaching the next generation that I'm terrible"

And the same would be true for the inverse... if there were California publicly funded colleges teaching courses in "Traditional Marriage Studies" or courses glorifying Supply-side economics, I would totally understand why liberal parents in California would object to having to chip in for that.

If there's some value in taking the courses, as you seem open to, then we want the programs, which means graduate level degrees to produce professors etc.

College has always offered non-professional majors. In fact thats what it mostly used to do, especially in the era when the natural sciences was more knowledge for its own sake rather than means to various ends. I probably share some of your skepticism about the specifics of various social science and humanities courses. But Id hate to see those departments eliminated as we make universities into glorified vocational programs. Here's to the age old idea of a liberal education!

 

[ThatRobGuy]

What about the 1619 Project is ahistorical?

Here are a few articles from left-leaning sources that give a more balanced take on the dispute regarding the historians that signed a letter and were asking for corrections to be made (as opposed to the right wing critiques that simply use the letter from the historians as a means of trying to "dunk on the left").

I Helped Fact-Check the 1619 Project. The Times Ignored Me.

The paper’s series on slavery made avoidable mistakes. But the attacks from its critics are much more dangerous.

www.politico.com

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/12/historians-clash-1619-project/604093/

The reaction to the project was not universally enthusiastic. Several weeks ago, the Princeton historian Sean Wilentz, who had criticized the 1619 Project’s “cynicism” in a lecture in November, began quietly circulating a letter objecting to the project, and some of Hannah-Jones’s work in particular. The letter acquired four signatories—James McPherson, Gordon Wood, Victoria Bynum, and James Oakes, all leading scholars in their field. They sent their letter to three top Times editors and the publisher, A. G. Sulzberger, on December 4.

The letter sent to the Times says, “We applaud all efforts to address the foundational centrality of slavery and racism to our history,” but then veers into harsh criticism of the 1619 Project. The letter refers to “matters of verifiable fact” that “cannot be described as interpretation or ‘framing’” and says the project reflected “a displacement of historical understanding by ideology.” Wilentz and his fellow signatories didn’t just dispute the Times Magazine’s interpretation of past events, but demanded corrections.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

If there's some value in taking the courses, as you seem open to, then we want the programs, which means graduate level degrees to produce professors etc.

College has always offered non-professional majors. In fact thats what it mostly used to do, especially in the era when the natural sciences was more knowledge for its own sake rather than means to various ends. I probably share some of your skepticism about the specifics of various social science and humanities courses. But Id hate to see those departments eliminated as we make universities into glorified vocational programs. Here's to the age old idea of a liberal education!

I don't think anyone is saying they have to be eliminated, they can still operate...they'd just have to do it based on tuition alone and not get taxpayer funding (if I'm understanding FL's proposal correctly)

I don't think the objections are rooted strictly in the "whether or not it's marketable" (For instance, visual & performing arts and journalism are two of the biggest "long-shot" majors out there by the numbers, but I'm not aware of them being impacted by this.)


....as much as they are in what I mentioned earlier. Which is that people are having to involuntarily fund something that's going to end up creating a generation of people who will hate them -- or at the very least, actively vote against them. (or at least that's how they see it)


And when you look at the numbers, that notion isn't completely unfounded.

From 1994 and beyond, there's a pretty clear growing trend showing "the longer you stay in college, the more liberal you get". And while I know that a lot of people would like to believe it's a simple case of "the more educated you are, the more the liberal policies make sense to you" (as a way to imply "liberals are smarter", I don't think that explains all of it.

For certain fields, sure...for instance, a person who goes into college a climate denier is going to have a rough time maintaining that ideology if they go through an Earth Science program and get a better understanding of the data. However, for others political topics, I think there is some merit to the notion that some of that is coming from academic elites promulgating their viewpoints, and less because of "some newly learned objective facts"

 

[public hermit]

Culture wars panic is to maintain votes. Votes enable them to expand policies that favor the upward flow of money.

I still wonder if this kind of thing is going to make a dent. That's a significant monetary loss for Florida, and it could get worse.

Disney canceled plans for a billion-dollar project in Florida following feud with governor Ron DeSantis

Disney announced it was abandoning plans to to build a $1 billion office complex near Disney World in Florida on Thursday (May 18), after months of building tension between the company and the state’s governor Ron DeSantis.

finance.yahoo.com

 

[Brihaha]

I still wonder if this kind of thing is going to make a dent. That's a significant monetary loss for Florida, and it could get worse.

Disney canceled plans for a billion-dollar project in Florida following feud with governor Ron DeSantis

Disney announced it was abandoning plans to to build a $1 billion office complex near Disney World in Florida on Thursday (May 18), after months of building tension between the company and the state’s governor Ron DeSantis.

finance.yahoo.com

I am hoping a persuasive spokesman from Virginia can sell Disney on our wonderful commonwealth! We have an excellent workforce and a welcoming climate. Ron seems to be past the point of diminishing returns in his culture wars now.

 

[zippy2006]

I was contesting your idea that this was an "experiment" to see what the market value of the various majors might be. I think we dispensed with that notion. This makes no sense as an experiment. I dont think Desantis is even that dumb.

No, your counterargument fails, and badly. Rob said he approves of this as a social experiment to see which state "produces the best results and best members of society." You responded by saying that since we know the demand for each major, the hire-ability of graduates is already known even without the experiment.

Your failure, even granting your premise, is that you have erroneously reduced "the best results and the best members of society" to the one-dimensional notion of "hire-ability." The other failure is that the premise cannot be granted, namely the premise which says that hire-ability is fully related to major and unrelated to university.

 

[wing2000]

I still wonder if this kind of thing is going to make a dent. That's a significant monetary loss for Florida, and it could get worse.

Disney canceled plans for a billion-dollar project in Florida following feud with governor Ron DeSantis

Disney announced it was abandoning plans to to build a $1 billion office complex near Disney World in Florida on Thursday (May 18), after months of building tension between the company and the state’s governor Ron DeSantis.

finance.yahoo.com

...if DeSantis persists with his "culture war", other companies will think twice before investing in Florida.

 

[durangodawood]

No, your counterargument fails, and badly. Rob said he approves of this as a social experiment to see which state "produces the best results and best members of society." You responded by saying that since we know the demand for each major, the hire-ability of graduates is already known even without the experiment.

Your failure, even granting your premise, is that you have erroneously reduced "the best results and the best members of society" to the one-dimensional notion of "hire-ability."

Youre wrong there.
Before we got to your quote of mine, Rob had proceeded to this, below, which I was responding to:

.....But, as I said, I'd like to see the experiment play out in terms of which type of person is more employable at the end.

So there you have it. You jumped in before looking for rocks.

The other failure is that the premise cannot be granted, namely the premise which says that hire-ability is fully related to major and unrelated to university.

Oh dear. You could not even be bothered to finish my short sentence on this, which went:
Hire-ability is all about what major you chose and if your school has a reputable program in that major.

 

[zippy2006]

Youre wrong there.

Before we got to your quote of mine, Rob had proceeded to this, below, which I was responding to.

Fair enough, but that line also included a number of shifts, first redefining "employability" as "hire-ability" and then redefining it as "market value." And unless Rob's "as I said" referred to something other than the OP, my original point stands. The OP, and the crucial phrase, "the best results and best members of society," is what grounds Rob's argument, and it is a fine argument.

(Note, too, that you are simply mistaken when you claim that Ron attributed the experiment to DeSantis.)

Oh dear. You could not even be bothered to finish my short sentence on this, which went:
Hire-ability is all about what major you chose and if your school has a reputable program in that major.

I was working from your conclusion, which I assumed was valid. It turns out to be invalid, then. That additional premise negates your claim that nothing new could be learned.

 

[durangodawood]

Fair enough, but that line also included a number of shifts, first redefining "employability" as "hire-ability" and then redefining it as "market value." And unless Rob's "as I said" referred to something other than the OP, my original point stands. The OP, and the crucial phrase, "the best results and best members of society," is what grounds Rob's argument, and it is a fine argument.

(Note, too, that you are simply mistaken when you claim that Ron attributed the experiment to DeSantis.)


I was working from your conclusion, which I assumed was valid. It turns out to be invalid, then. That additional premise negates your claim that nothing new could be learned.

FL vs CA! ......its on! Im sure we'll have no trouble at all determining who are the "best members of society" and how the presence of a gender studies program etc in their states U system forged them - or didnt - into who they are. At any rate I was responding to the specific idea presented to me there in the text I was responding to and I wasnt going to fix the obvious disharmony with the back reference - He could have bought it back on track if we he felt he'd misdirected me from his own intent.

Also note, I edited my post above above to address my "other failure".

(Yes I see now that Desantis didnt mention an experiment)

 

[zippy2006]

FL vs CA! ......its on! Im sure we'll have no trouble at all determining who are the "best members of society" and how a gender studies program happening in their states U system forged them - or didnt - into who they are.

There really is no strawman you could resist.

 

[durangodawood]

I was working from your conclusion, which I assumed was valid. It turns out to be invalid, then. That additional premise negates your claim that nothing new could be learned.

You stated my premise wrong by omitting half of it, and then flat out claiming I didnt say the omitted half, when you critiqued it.

As for the rest above, it sounds like youve got an argument in mind. But youre not presenting it, which is fine. Its my bedtime. Good night Zippy!