‘Go to Berkeley’: Ron DeSantis said students seeking ‘woke’ classes should study elsewhere

[ThatRobGuy]

‘Go to Berkeley’: Ron DeSantis said students seeking ‘woke’ classes should study elsewhere

'We want to focus on the classical mission of what a university is supposed to be.'

floridapolitics.com

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/15/politics/desantis-signs-dei-defunding-bill/index.html

“If you want to do things like gender ideology, go to (the University of California) Berkeley,” DeSantis added. “There’s nothing wrong with that, per se, but for us with our tax dollars, we want to focus on the classical mission of what a university is supposed to be.”

“What this does is reorient our universities back to their traditional mission and part of that traditional mission is to treat people as individuals, not to try to divvy them up based on any type of superficial characteristics,” DeSantis said.

The law also demands that general education courses “may not distort significant historical events or include a curriculum that teaches identity politics”


Some media outlets are framing this in a negative way, but I actually don't have a problem with this one. I say let the various states set their policies on taxpayer funding at universities, and we can all see the results in 4-8 years and judge for ourselves which ones are producing the most productive members of society.

Rather than the red states and the blue states all trying to "export their values" and foist them upon the other states, I think it'd be a good social experiment to leave them all to their own devices in terms of education policies, and see which one produces the best results and best members of society.

My hunch on this is that the "winning combination" on this would be a combination of some right leaning values and some left leaning ones (like I do on most things as something of a "radical centrist" defined by the JFK quote of "idealism without illusions"), but I'd be happy to see it play out in a real-world application.

 

[durangodawood]

Yes go to where they have some of the country's top programs in computer science, engineering, life sciences, physical sciences, math, law, business, and others. Not bad advice actually.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Yes go to where they have some of the country's top programs in computer science, engineering, life sciences, physical sciences, math, law, business, and others. Not bad advice actually.

I'm happy to see the social experiment play out...

Although, if they're going to Berkeley for those programs that you mentioned, then they would've been unimpacted by the proposal anyway.

For the programs you motioned, one could just as easily study at University of Florida, Florida State University, or University of Miami and get a decent education. (and for a fraction of the price)

...and does anyone even go to college for Computer Science anymore actually expecting it to add any gravitas to their resume? I figured I was the last of a dying breed by actually paying for a degree in that as in the last decade, more and more people are getting by with just certifications and vocation training for the field. If I were 7 years younger, I wouldn't have even bothered going to college for it.

 

[durangodawood]

.....
For the programs you motioned, one could just as easily study at University of Florida, Florida State University, or University of Miami and get a decent education. (and for a fraction of the price)
.....

Well yes, in-state FL tuition for FL people would be way cheaper than paying out-of-state to attend UC. So Im not sure the experiment makes sense if costs you tons more to try something different. If its a proper experiment, they will try both approaches within FL.

As for CS, isnt college still good for the high end theoretic stuff thats beyond your basic coding jobs?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Well yes, in-state FL tuition for FL people would be way cheaper that paying out-of-state to attend UC. So Im not sure the experiment makes sense if costs you tons more to try something different. If its a proper experiment, they will try both approaches within FL.

You don't need to have FL people going to CA and vice versa in order to see the results.

They can both try out what they see as "ideal curriculums", and we can see which is producing more "hirable" people in 8 years.

My hunch is that the FL kids would be lacking some "societal acumen" (in knowing how to be well-balanced and deal with a variety of people) and would be lacking in some of the areas of "soft sciences", and the CA kids would be lacking in some areas of prudence and pragmatism and would let their idealism trump practicality (and elevate sensitivity over truth on a number of facets) and have unreasonable expectations.

But, as I said, I'd like to see the experiment play out in terms of which type of person is more employable at the end.

 

[durangodawood]

You don't need to have FL people going to CA and vice versa in order to see the results.

They can both try out what they see as "ideal curriculums", and we can see which is producing more "hirable" people in 8 years.

My hunch is that the FL kids would be lacking some "societal acumen" (in knowing how to be well-balanced and deal with a variety of people) and would be lacking in some of the areas of "soft sciences", and the CA kids would be lacking in some areas of prudence and pragmatism and would let their idealism trump practicality (and elevate sensitivity over truth on a number of facets) and have unreasonable expectations.

But, as I said, I'd like to see the experiment play out in terms of which type of person is more employable at the end.

Hire-ability is all about what major you chose and if your school has a reputable program in that major.

There's nothing new to be learned from dropping various majors from one school or another. You can already see how attractive people with those majors are in the job market.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Hire-ability is all about what major you chose and if your school has a reputable program in that major.

There's nothing new to be learned from dropping various majors from one school or another. You can already see how attractive people with those majors are in the job market.

So by that logic, then DeSantis is making a good decision by not funneling tax payer money toward fields of study that are unlikely to produce any marketable skills?

I'm of the mindset that certain classes (that may not help someone 'rake in the dough' so to speak) can still offer some value if made part of a more comprehensive program in the actual thing they want to pursue. However, when those extraneous learning aspects start to trump the actual "meat & potatoes" of what's supposed to be the subject matter, that's when people start to scrutinize where their tax money is going.

 

[durangodawood]

So by that logic, then DeSantis is making a good decision by not funneling tax payer money toward fields of study that are unlikely to produce any marketable skills?

I was contesting your idea that this was an "experiment" to see what the market value of the various majors might be. I think we dispensed with that notion. This makes no sense as an experiment. I dont think Desantis is even that dumb. He simply rejects certain avenues of inquiry on ideological grounds.

I havent yet proposed "my logic" about whether the full value of various arenas of study tracks solely to job market prospects. My sense is a good education includes various studies that dont in themselves show salary returns upon graduation, but instead advance that old fashioned notion of the well rounded citizen whos learned how to look at issues from various perspectives.

I'm of the mindset that certain classes (that may not help someone 'rake in the dough' so to speak) can still offer some value if made part of a more comprehensive program in the actual thing they want to pursue. However, when those extraneous learning aspects start to trump the actual "meat & potatoes" of what's supposed to be the subject matter, that's when people start to scrutinize where their tax money is going.

Sounds like we agree on this. And so why would we dismantle departments just because they dont produce majors as marketable as, say, STEM?

 

[keith99]

Yes go to where they have some of the country's top programs in computer science, engineering, life sciences, physical sciences, math, law, business, and others. Not bad advice actually.

Perhaps, but rather useless for students educated the way DeSantis wants. They would have almost no chance of getting admitted to any of the University of California schools.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

It's odd that red states don't want kids, teens and grown-ups to be educated. Also, DeSantis wants to be president and force this on everyone. Woke is nothing but true education, that right wing people are trying to scare people with.

 

[ZephBonkerer]

It's odd that red states don't want kids, teens and grown-ups to be educated. Also, DeSantis wants to be president and force this on everyone. Woke is nothing but true education, that right wing people are trying to scare people with.

Many people on a forum like this would regard "woke" as a pejorative, especially as it pertains to life not being fair to persons of a particular demographic. How would you define "woke" education vs the non-woke kind?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

‘Go to Berkeley’: Ron DeSantis said students seeking ‘woke’ classes should study elsewhere

'We want to focus on the classical mission of what a university is supposed to be.'

floridapolitics.com

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/15/politics/desantis-signs-dei-defunding-bill/index.html

“If you want to do things like gender ideology, go to (the University of California) Berkeley,” DeSantis added. “There’s nothing wrong with that, per se, but for us with our tax dollars, we want to focus on the classical mission of what a university is supposed to be.”

“What this does is reorient our universities back to their traditional mission and part of that traditional mission is to treat people as individuals, not to try to divvy them up based on any type of superficial characteristics,” DeSantis said.

The law also demands that general education courses “may not distort significant historical events or include a curriculum that teaches identity politics”


Some media outlets are framing this in a negative way, but I actually don't have a problem with this one. I say let the various states set their policies on taxpayer funding at universities, and we can all see the results in 4-8 years and judge for ourselves which ones are producing the most productive members of society.

Rather than the red states and the blue states all trying to "export their values" and foist them upon the other states, I think it'd be a good social experiment to leave them all to their own devices in terms of education policies, and see which one produces the best results and best members of society.

My hunch on this is that the "winning combination" on this would be a combination of some right leaning values and some left leaning ones (like I do on most things as something of a "radical centrist" defined by the JFK quote of "idealism without illusions"), but I'd be happy to see it play out in a real-world application.

Eliminating diversity, equity and inclusion is certainly classical sectarianism. Who said this was a good thing? This man aims to bring back ignorance.
Blessings.

 

[wing2000]

The law also demands that general education courses “may not distort significant historical events or include a curriculum that teaches identity politics”

Who in the state of Florida determines if a course "distorts" significant historical events?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Sounds like we agree on this. And so why would we dismantle departments just because they dont produce majors as marketable as, say, STEM?

I think there's a difference between "taking a gender studies class" (on the journey to getting a degree in something more practical, just to get a little variety in there) is different than paying $70k for a graduate degree in Gender Studies.

If that's something that's important to someone, there's plenty of private colleges that I'm sure will still offer degrees in those programs. However, with regards to institutions that are funded in part by state level taxes, those are supposed to be something of an investment for everyone who's chipping in.

One can make a strong practical argument for saying we need nurses, we need teachers, we need engineers, we need doctors & lawyers, accountants, etc... It'd be a little harder to make similar justifications for someone who's graduating with a degree in a niche field with a sub-par job placement rate that doesn't really offer any sort of public good.

And given the subject matter taught in some of those courses, I can understand why conservative parents in Florida may not be crazy about funding those programs. From their perspective, it's "I'm paying money, involuntarily, to help fund programs that are teaching the next generation that I'm terrible"

And the same would be true for the inverse... if there were California publicly funded colleges teaching courses in "Traditional Marriage Studies" or courses glorifying Supply-side economics, I would totally understand why liberal parents in California would object to having to chip in for that.

 

[jayem]

For the programs you motioned, one could just as easily study at University of Florida, Florida State University, or University of Miami and get a decent education. (and for a fraction of the price)

Just for the record, the Univ. of Miami is a private school. It wouldn't be subject to the governor's curriculum restrictions. And I'm sure its tuition is comparable to other private southern universities, like Vanderbilt, Emory, Duke., Tulane, etc.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Who in the state of Florida determines if a course "distorts" significant historical events?

I'm not sure who be appointed as the "misinformation czar" in that regard. I would hope it'd be someone neutral, but given Ron's propensity in engaging in the culture war issues, I wouldn't bet money on it...

But I assume that provision is aimed at preventing things like the 1619 Project from being taught as "history".

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Eliminating diversity, equity and inclusion is certainly classical sectarianism. Who said this was a good thing? This man aims to bring back ignorance.
Blessings.

How does promoting equity (equality of outcomes) impact how ignorant (or not ignorant) a person is?

The initiatives surrounding this used to be labelled "D&I"... the "E" for equity didn't really show up on there until around 2015.

Evolution of Diversity in the Workplace

Diversity and inclusion, now with the addition of equity, (D&I or DEI) has morphed, grown and changed significantly over time. It’s been a true evolution, and a long-time focus for most large US companies, yet we still see only 25% of women in C-suite positions among the top 1,000 US companies (by r

www.linkedin.com

How does not publicly funding the current iteration of something that was radically altered 7 years ago equate to taking us back to the dark ages?

 

[dogs4thewin]

It's odd that red states don't want kids, teens and grown-ups to be educated. Also, DeSantis wants to be president and force this on everyone. Woke is nothing but true education, that right wing people are trying to scare people with.

I tend to disagree about "woke", but as to DeSantis wanting to be president and forcing these ideas on people maybe or maybe not. What if he told the states as many have in the past and states have told local government this as well. We will not pay for X Y Z, but if the state or local government in cases where the state says this ( as was the case with public education several years ago in GA) wishes and can afford to make up the difference with their own tax base then they may do so. A number of years ago when I was in high school ( graduated 13 years ago this year) the state of GA cut the education budget removing I think it was 10 days from teacher contracts, BUT if a county or district wanted to and could afford to do it they were welcome to keep those ten days in the contract. You could even put things like that to a vote ( in some cases) depending on how pressing the issue was or if you did not or could not put it to a vote before hand if enough people were not pleased with that choice they could either vote them out at the next election or depending on the office and the issue maybe even recall the person; though this would take some serious misconduct.

 

[rambot]

Rather than the red states and the blue states all trying to "export their values" and foist them upon the other states, I think it'd be a good social experiment to leave them all to their own devices in terms of education policies, and see which one produces the best results and best members of society.

My hunch on this is that the "winning combination" on this would be a combination of some right leaning values and some left leaning ones (like I do on most things as something of a "radical centrist" defined by the JFK quote of "idealism without illusions"), but I'd be happy to see it play out in a real-world application.

Well, in that sense, red states are already absymally behind and perhaps shouldn't be in a position to cast aspersions.

Also, I'm not exactly sure that's fair since Blue states have MOST of the top rates unis in the US right? So they'd have the options of still training those folks in the "leftists" whatever and ALSO still be successful "right leanings outcomes" too.

Seriously. NONE of this is about "productive members of society". This is just about trying to limit identity politics....THAT THEY DON'T like.

 

[rambot]

How does promoting equity (equality of outcomes) impact how ignorant (or not ignorant) a person is?

This is an incorrect definition of equity.
It is access to the same opportunities.