Thanks, I appreciate your perspective. Not sure if I agree as God is the same today, yesterday and forever. Gives me food for thought though
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I think we have to take into account the context of the time that scripture was written in comparison to today's world.
Making yourself penniless and homeless so as to give to others is not God's will. Give when you have bounty so that others may prosper when they have far less.
That's interesting. I've been thinking a lot lately about gold being tried in the fire. We often see trials as very negative but it can often be God refining us and pruning off those dead branches. Agree it can be painful though and don't really welcome it eitherbut it would be amazing if it makes us as pure as gold
Thanks, I appreciate your perspective. Not sure if I agree as God is the same today, yesterday and forever. Gives me food for thought though
Yeah exactly, I hear ya if only I could glory in them...
Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
What an amazing thing to say
I'll admit that is not mine yet (I'll be working on a tude adjustment)
God may be the same but our society certainly isn't the same. What God stands for won't have changed but the way we implement it in our society will have changed.
Back in the day the Scriptures were written there wouldn't have been anything like the welfare system we have in the west today. So today, in theory at least, nobody in the west should be literally starving to death. We still have relative levels of poverty, we just need to determine whether someone is "in poverty" in the sense that they can't keep even a basic roof over their head and basic food on the table, or "in poverty" in the far less meaningful sense of having 70% or less of the national median income.
I'm always very cynical of definitions such as the latter because they create a situation where my poverty or otherwise depends on the success of others. As it happens by such a definition my wife and I live "in poverty" because we chose to take a career break. In the eyes of national statisticians we're "below the poverty line" but the truth is we're better off than most of the people we know, we just don't have a very high income right at the moment.
When Christians go through tribulations they often feel that God is far from them and that He is not answering their prayers. Paul seems to describe the opposite and sees the outworkings of those tribulations. Wish I'd realised this when I was going through those wilderness periods in my life
In 2Cr 12:10 Is the "therefore"... in respects to taking pleasure in those things. And this after he prayed three times about his thorn till the answer come and he could take pleasure in them.
He tells of it, but we add to our faith experience too, and that was his. I love the assurance that come from God (alone) and makes you certain of a thing (in yourself)
It shows after Jesus prayed for his faith, he said when you are converted strengthen your brethren. Though even still Peter speaks of them being in heaviness during such times. But in Acts 14:12 shows them Confirming (strengthening) the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. Notice that? That's how they were strengthening the sould of the disciples. Because Jesus speaks of one who receives the word with joy but has not root in himself for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. Whereas Paul reminds them that no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. Seems to take you off guard if you haven't girded your mind up in a kind of readiness for it.
They had to be reminded of that. You would be really thrown into tailspin if someone promises you a walk in the park and any kind of tribulation or persecution come upon you wouldn't you?
That's a good study too on all those combined
God bless you sis
Right now I feel like the rich man that went away sorrowful after hearing Jesus say that to him. (Matt 19:21,22)
Although I’m not rich by western standards I am so filthy rich compared with so many millions of people in the world that have nothing. I just feel so blessed to be born in a rich country but I feel that I have a greater responsibility before God in how I live my life and how I spend my money.
‘..For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required..’ Luke 12:48
The thought of continuing to live a ‘normal,’ happy, prosperous life, buying new things, going on holiday, etc etc makes me feel ill inside because I feel such a great burden and responsibility. I hate what I see in this world like materialism, corruption, greed, selfishness and people being exploited. The poor are getting poorer and the rich are getting richer – I just hate it. Yet if I lived like those in a developing country I would be miserable because I would miss all the comforts that I currently have.
Jesus said sell all you have, give to the poor and come follow me. If Jesus was here in person I would drop everything without hesitation and follow Him. However I think (ye of little faith) that if I walked out the door right now with just the shirt on my back that I would just fall flat on my face and be among the thousands of other homeless poor people out there.
Please note I’m not just talking about one scripture here, the same messages of self denial, for example, ‘pick up your cross’ and ‘whoever shall lose his life shall find it’, and the rebukes to the rich are throughout the whole of the new testament. Most of Jesus teachings are not taught in churches because He gives a lot of warnings which are not popular feel good messages. So I’m not expecting many people to understand where I am coming from.
But please respond if you can relate to this?
Amazing stuff, thanks!I spoke to my sister one day about persecution and she replied 'Thank God we don't live in a country where Christians are persecuted.' She didn't really understand where I was coming from because I thought as Christians we should all expect persecutions and tribulations to happen in our lives if we are truly following Christ. After all a servant is no greater than his master (John 15:18-25). So if we are living a great, happy life full of prosperity and everyone around us thinks we are just wonderful isn't that when alarm bells should ring?
She didn't really understand where I was coming from because I thought as Christians we should all expect persecutions and tribulations to happen in our lives if we are truly following Christ. After all a servant is no greater than his master (John 15:18-25).
So if we are living a great, happy life full of prosperity and everyone around us thinks we are just wonderful isn't that when alarm bells should ring?
Solomon said whenever you see injustice, remember there are officials that can take care of it.
This is a priestly answer and it is wise.
I'm leaning towards this sentiment too.
Jesus is very clear in Matthew 6:19
It supports the command to deny ourselves, give to the poor. The more we deny ourselves, the more we can give to the poor or to those in distress.
How we treat the least is how you treat God also. If one cannot follow this simple commands of Jesus shows they do not love God with all their heart, mind, strength, and soul.
Without genuine love, one cannot do these extraordinary acts of faith.
That is true. Although you'll still be persecuted even in developed Christian countries like Australia if you preach and live the hard teachings of Jesus that is rarely heard or taken seriously in churches.
The persecution usually comes in the loss of most friends, loss of the love of most relatives, and obviously, lost opportunities for things like career, etc worse would be emotional or even physical abuse from those who don't share your beliefs even from Christians.
That is true. Most Christians today live in a manner quite unlike Jesus and His 12 disciples. I don't think these verses say it's alright to live that way. Far from alright, these verses accuse many Christians today of hypocrisy and even spreading lies that a Christian can live in a manner unlike that of Christ.
1 John 2:3-6
We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, I know him, but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
Jesus is certainly not materially rich/wealthy even by the standards of His time. In fact this verse says he is poor by the worldly standards of their time.
Luke 9:58
Jesus replied, "Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."
I could go on and on with many more verses showing how Jesus taught that riches and wealth are as good as garbage - literally and how Jesus lived everything He taught...
...Yet today, only few Christians live as Jesus do. Many rejects the life that Jesus lived and actually follow worldly(evil) desires.
What you said is true BUT, does the officials who can take care of injustice actually put any significant effort in taking care of injustice?
If we use the wisdom of Jesus, we know what Solomon said said in that instance is not wise. What Solomon said is limited in application - perhaps today, it only applies to Switzerland and maybe Japan. Not every official who can take care of injustice in all countries take care of injustice. And quite many injustice in the world goes all the way to the grave.
What Jesus taught would supersede that of Solomon and is far superior. Jesus said we should do it ourselves in taking care of injustice by taking care of those who are in poverty, oppressed, in jails. Because in some countries, if we apply what Solomon said, who will ever take care of poor, oppressed, and those who got jailed for the sake of the Truth?
Many things in the Old Testament have been done away with else, we would still be sacrificing animals to atone of sins even today.
So true. The new covenant in the NT actually describes a more difficult way even though we have grace. e.g. when Jesus said about keeping the ten commandments and said 'even if you are angry at your brother you commit murder.' Some Christians, like the adventists, are attempting to live their lives in 2 different covenants.
That is true.
Not everything in the Bible should be treated as a divine revelation some are just rantings like those from King David when he got himself into trouble and some are just worldly wisdom like those in Proverbs.
For example in Proverbs 21:20:
The wise store up choice food and olive oil, but fools gulp theirs down.
But in Matthew 6:19:
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
It could not have been figurative because all the money in the world today comes from the poor - profits made off their cheap labor. Profit off the cheap labor of those who mine the raw materials for the products we use, cheap labor of those who build our cities, garments, assemble our gadgets.
The world profits from the gross inequality and injustice we impose upon the poor that's why Jesus said the world and its works are evil! (John 7:7) And that's why even though developing nations' economies improve, the living conditions of the poor among them doesn't improve!
Money is evil mostly. The only good it serves is giving it back to where it came from!
Our achievements in life like educational attainment, industrial expertise/skills doesn't justify the reason to deny the poor which our money came from.
1 John 2:16 (NLT)
For the world offers only a craving for physical pleasure, a craving for everything we see, and pride in our achievements and possessions. These are not from the Father, but are from this world.
However, I'm only stating real world consequences of the economic system which many exalt but are actually incredibly corrupt and how it makes money so evil as strongly supported by the teachings of Christ....
...But we must always do what Jesus commands out of our love for Him, not out of guilt.
I agree, the corruption, exploitation and injustice makes me feel sick inside. Yet I am part of its system, every time I use the internet, shop at these multinational companies, use my car, watch tv, listen to music, use my phone and sit in my nice house. I feel trapped like a rat on the wheel of modern life, unable to get out.
You said Jesus wants us to act out of love and not of guilt. Yet I feel tremendous guilt even though I don't have excessive material possessions and I don't 'upgrade' what I have but just replace what breaks and cant be fixed. I really hate living like this, but I guess I don't hate it enough to give it all away and live in poverty so that makes me feel even more guilty.
I find it interesting that you don't believe everything in the bible should be treated as divine revelation. Although I don't agree with you in this point of time, Revelation 22:18,19 suggests that it could be possible. But the more I read the bible, the things that seemed like contradictions before seem to make more sense.
There's no reason why you shouldn't change small things at a time. It's very easy to get overwhelmed thinking we're trapped in some kind of system we hate but a lot of things people like to claim they are "forced" to do are entirely optional.
As you've said you replace things that break rather than endlessly upgrading. You could go ahead and sell absolutely everything and live on the streets, but before you do that consider whether the words Jesus spoke to the rich young man were an instruction to everyone who lived since the words were written down, or an instruction to that man in that situation.
If we go too far down the specific route we could argue that the Bible is irrelevant today as all the teachings applied to the people of the day and those days are gone. If we go too far down the universal route we end up with all sorts of silly things elevated to universal rules. John 21:6 and 2Tim 4:13 come to mind as obvious examples.
Even if the Bible is 100% divine revelation (and passages like 2Tim 4:13-15 suggest that the letters are just that, letters, however sound the teaching is), that doesn't mean that every word of it is 100% relevant to us today.
Trying to figure what does still apply and what doesn't can be a tricky thing to do, for example we don't worry about wearing clothes of mixed fibres (in violation of Lev 19:19), we don't worry about trimming the edges of our beards (Lev 19:27), we don't stone children who curse their parents (Lev 20:9) and so on.
With things like the gift of prophecy in today's world, sometimes a prophetic word is for a particular person in a particular situation, sometimes it is for a church, sometimes it is for a wider body still. But if, theoretically speaking, someone came to you with a prophetic word that God was calling you into a ministry with children, trying to apply that word universally would make no sense at all. The fact the word came directly from God doesn't change the fact it was intended for you and not the person next to you.
You are right, its easy to feel overwhelmed. I agree that a way forward to to change small things however its not always easy as everything I own also belongs to my husband. But I'm sure God will show me step by step things that I can change.
I'm still not convinced that everything in the bible is not relevant for us. Even scriptures that don't appear directly relevant can still give us a picture of the character of God - the bible to me is like pieces of a puzzle, bit by bit we get a bigger picture of who God is but the pieces on their own often don't make sense or seem relevant.
The OT is way over my head in many ways, my only understanding is that its a very graphic picture of what God requires of us and it prophetically shows Jesus as the ultimate sacrifice. It is impossible for us to follow all those laws and requirements so He had to end that covenant by sending Jesus with the new covenant. So although the old covenant is no longer relevant to us it still gives us wider aspect of who God is and what His purposes are.
Maybe you have true prophets in your church but I haven't come across any so far. The only prophecies I've heard are along the lines of 'God is going to bless you, He is going to do amazing things in your life, you are going to prosper and be great in His kingdom.' The prophets in the bible were persecuted because of what they said, they actually brought words of correction and rebuke but I don't see that today.
@ the OP, I've given up on all of my worldly goods, which are sometimes taken from me without my giving but when I try to give away any heavenly wealth it seems that nobody wants it. Those things that I once loved I'm now learning to hate, and those things that I once hated I'm learning to love.
The world says: "To know me is to love me"
Our Lord says: "To Love Me is to Know Me"
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