If you accepted Him as your Savior then why don't you believe you are saved already?CrossMovement said:No you don't get my point read this : Holy spirit is when you accept him as your personal savior . The baptism in the water is the proof that you have given your life to Christ.
You must first accept him and then get baptize in the water to gave hte proof that you have given your life to Christ. (It is a proof)
You can accept him as your personnal savior , however you must get baptize after to prove that you really want to gave you life to Christ , simply as that.
sbbqb7n16 said:Okay... here ya go
Person #1: The theif on the cross
Acts*2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
This verse clearly says that once you have forgiveness of your sins.. .then you can recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit, right? Well then what happened here if forgiveness of sins is through baptism?
Acts*10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
Acts*10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
Acts*10:45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Acts*10:46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
Acts*10:47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
Acts*10:48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days
Hmmm these people recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit before they were baptized
Interesting... I thought you wanted me to believe that forgiveness came through baptism, and that the gift of the Holy Spirit came after forgiveness.
That's what Acts 2:38 says anyways. But these people recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit and weren't baptised yet?
sbbqb7n16 said:Actually learned it in church just this Wed. The purpose of the New Covenant is to allow us to come freely to God right? Well the veil was torn the moment that Christ died... therefore God was showing all His Presence was now available when the veil was torn. If you don't believe that I'd like to know why as well
I'm wondering why you think the first gospel sermon was in Acts....
Matt 11:5 the BLIND RECEIVE SIGHT and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM.
Luke 3:18 So with many other exhortations he preached the gospel to the people.
Luke 4:18 "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
Luke 9:6 Departing, they began going throughout the villages, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.
Luke 16:16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.
Luke 20:1 On one of the days while He was teaching the people in the temple and preaching the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes with the elders confronted Him,
[edited to add]Probably should answer the rest of it right lol Sorry
The church is just the body of believers in Christ.
Acts*5:14 And all the more believers in the Lord, multitudes of men and women, were constantly added to their number,
This doesn't say "the church" was growing but rather "more believers" and apparently this thief was a believer.
sbbqb7n16 said:Okay... here ya go
Person #1: The thief on the cross
Persons #we don't know how many:
Acts*2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
This verse clearly says that once you have forgiveness of your sins.. .then you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit, right? Well then what happened here if forgiveness of sins is through baptism?
Acts*10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
Acts*10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
Acts*10:45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Acts*10:46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
Acts*10:47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
Acts*10:48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days
Hmmm these people recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. Interesting... I thought you wanted me to believe that forgiveness came through baptism, and that the gift of the Holy Spirit came after forgiveness. That's what Acts 2:38 says anyways. But these people recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit and weren't baptised yet? Your theology makes that impossible.
So answer me this: how did these Gentiles recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE they recieved water baptism?
John*19:31 Then the Jews, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.CrossMovement said:The thief on the cross said to Jesus : I believe in you and then Jesus said : You will be saved. He said that before Jesus died so you don't make many point of saying that Jesus died first.
They have been 1 person who has been stated who has been saved and it is the thief and this was to show that a person can be saved if he truly believe that christ is our savior and if he Can't have water baptism , because of real cirscontance.
No strong argument for the Acts thing , again you do not bring out all the context , because it is the entire bible that we knew to know , not just search in a website for a link and type for example , Holy spirit and then put out the verse to say that we are right (I don't say you did that but I don't base my belief on only some verse , I base my belief in all the bible.
sbbqb7n16 said:If you accepted Him as your Savior then why don't you believe you are saved already?
sbbqb7n16 said:John*19:31 Then the Jews, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
John*19:32 So the soldiers came, and broke the legs of the first man and of the other who was crucified with Him;
John*19:33 but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
Because Jesus was alive His legs weren't broken... because they were theirs were. They were alive after Christ had died. Therefore the thief died AFTER Christ' death AFTER the tearing of the veil and thus under the New Covenant. That is my point.
You obviously don't understand enough about what the Acts passage means, and you can't just pass it off for no reason. You wanted an example of people who were saved without baptism... so I gave you two Biblical examples of people saved in such manner. Just because you don't understand it, you can't write it off as meaningless. The people from the Acts passage were saved BEFORE baptism, and there is no way of getting around that. Baptism is not neccessary for salvation.
And you say you base your belief in all the Bible...yet you deny this passage. It is part of the Bible! If you don't believe this passage, then you apparently don't believe the whole Bible... just the parts you want to.
sbbqb7n16 said:John*19:31 Then the Jews, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
John*19:32 So the soldiers came, and broke the legs of the first man and of the other who was crucified with Him;
John*19:33 but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
Because Jesus was alive His legs weren't broken... because they were theirs were. They were alive after Christ had died. Therefore the thief died AFTER Christ' death AFTER the tearing of the veil and thus under the New Covenant. That is my point.
You obviously don't understand enough about what the Acts passage means, and you can't just pass it off for no reason. You wanted an example of people who were saved without baptism... so I gave you two Biblical examples of people saved in such manner. Just because you don't understand it, you can't write it off as meaningless. The people from the Acts passage were saved BEFORE baptism, and there is no way of getting around that. Baptism is not neccessary for salvation.
And you say you base your belief in all the Bible...yet you deny this passage. It is part of the Bible! If you don't believe this passage, then you apparently don't believe the whole Bible... just the parts you want to.
sbbqb7n16 said:Okay... here ya go
Person #1: The thief on the cross
Persons #we don't know how many:
Acts*2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
This verse clearly says that once you have forgiveness of your sins.. .then you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit, right? Well then what happened here if forgiveness of sins is through baptism?
Acts*10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
Acts*10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
Acts*10:45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Acts*10:46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
Acts*10:47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
Acts*10:48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days
Hmmm these people recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. Interesting... I thought you wanted me to believe that forgiveness came through baptism, and that the gift of the Holy Spirit came after forgiveness. That's what Acts 2:38 says anyways. But these people recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit and weren't baptised yet? Your theology makes that impossible.
So answer me this: how did these Gentiles recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE they recieved water baptism?
Actually the Holy Spirit's presence is the proof that you have given your life to Christ.CrossMovement said:Holy spirit is first and I have always said that , but water baptism is the PROOF that you have given your life to christ after the Holy spirit. You have misunderstood me I think
sbbqb7n16 said:John*19:31 Then the Jews, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
John*19:32 So the soldiers came, and broke the legs of the first man and of the other who was crucified with Him;
John*19:33 but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
Because Jesus was alive His legs weren't broken... because they were theirs were. They were alive after Christ had died. Therefore the thief died AFTER Christ' death AFTER the tearing of the veil and thus under the New Covenant. That is my point.
You obviously don't understand enough about what the Acts passage means, and you can't just pass it off for no reason. You wanted an example of people who were saved without baptism... so I gave you two Biblical examples of people saved in such manner. Just because you don't understand it, you can't write it off as meaningless. The people from the Acts passage were saved BEFORE baptism, and there is no way of getting around that. Baptism is not neccessary for salvation.
And you say you base your belief in all the Bible...yet you deny this passage. It is part of the Bible! If you don't believe this passage, then you apparently don't believe the whole Bible... just the parts you want to.
sbbqb7n16 said:Okay you want context: Read Acts 10 and 11... I posted the last line of Peter's sermon and the events the Bible records as happening up until the end of chapter 10... but you want the rest of it here for you so here goes:
Acts*10:30 Cornelius said, "Four days ago to this hour, I was praying in my house during the ninth hour; and behold, a man stood before me in shining garments,
Acts*10:31 and he *said, 'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God.
Acts*10:32 'Therefore send to Joppa and invite Simon, who is also called Peter, to come to you; he is staying at the house of Simon the tanner by the sea.'
Acts*10:33 "So I sent for you immediately, and you have been kind enough to come. Now then, we are all here present before God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord."
Acts*10:34 Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
Acts*10:35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
Acts*10:36 "The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)--
Acts*10:37 you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed.
Acts*10:38 "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
Acts*10:39 "We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross.
Acts*10:40 "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
Acts*10:41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
Acts*10:42 "And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
Acts*10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
Acts*10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
Acts*10:45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Acts*10:46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
Acts*10:47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
Acts*10:48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
sbbqb7n16 said:Okay you want context: Read Acts 10 and 11... I posted the last line of Peter's sermon and the events the Bible records as happening up until the end of chapter 10... but you want the rest of it here for you so here goes:
Acts*10:30 Cornelius said, "Four days ago to this hour, I was praying in my house during the ninth hour; and behold, a man stood before me in shining garments,
Acts*10:31 and he *said, 'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God.
Acts*10:32 'Therefore send to Joppa and invite Simon, who is also called Peter, to come to you; he is staying at the house of Simon the tanner by the sea.'
Acts*10:33 "So I sent for you immediately, and you have been kind enough to come. Now then, we are all here present before God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord."
Acts*10:34 Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
Acts*10:35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
Acts*10:36 "The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)--
Acts*10:37 you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed.
Acts*10:38 "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
Acts*10:39 "We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross.
Acts*10:40 "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
Acts*10:41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
Acts*10:42 "And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
Acts*10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
Acts*10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
Acts*10:45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Acts*10:46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
Acts*10:47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
Acts*10:48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
That translation is the New American Standard (NASB - found here http://www.studybibleforum.com/ with all the Greek and Hebrew words too) but irregardless...CrossMovement said:By the way , what is that translation of the bible?????????? this is not my translation and my bible does not says trhat and I have try 3 other bible translation too.
Acts 10 : 47Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."
the context is not the same , what is your bible ??