CrossMovement
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CrossMovement said:Because there isn't a verse who says that Water Baptism is not for the remission of sins because it is. Nobody will come up to you and find something that says that
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Is baptism necessary to be saved?
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aggie03
Veritas Vos Liberabit
CrossMovement said:Because there isn't a verse who says that Water Baptism is not for the remission of sins because it is
This is interesting...
Let me go through this one point at a time to make sure that we're on the same page
.You don't believe that water baptism is necessary for your salvation...
You believe that we are to be baptized in water, by immersion for the remission of our sins...
You believe that salvation comes at the point of faith, before you have been baptized with water, and therefore also before your sins have been forgiven...
Is all of this right?
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CrossMovement
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aggie03 said:This is interesting...
Let me go through this one point at a time to make sure that we're on the same page
You don't believe that water baptism is necessary for your salvation...
You believe that we are to be baptized in water, by immersion for the remission of our sins...
You believe that salvation comes at the point of faith, before you have been baptized with water, and therefore also before your sins have been forgiven...
Is all of this right?
Ok let me get this straight because I'm very confused loll
1st : I believe that Water Baptism is necessary for Salvation
2nd: I don't believe that Salvation comes at the point of faith (Just if we can't be baptize ex: The thief on the cross) But after we have the faith , the first thing we should do is to go to get our Water Baptism to then have salvation.
when you say immersion are you stated , sprinkle by water ?? Sorry I'm french , try to understand héhéhé
If immersion is when your baby or when you are sprinkle then I don't agree with it.
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CrossMovement
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aggie03 said:Okay, I think that we are honing in on an understanding
You do believe that you have to be baptized in water, completely immersed, for the remission of sins in order to be saved?
Yes , but However if we can't get baptise ex: The thief on the cross. We can be saved if we really can't get baptise.
But we got to do both , Holy spirit and Water.
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CrossMovement
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CrossMovement said:
like Mar 16:16 says :He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned
We must believe first and then get baptize , it's 2 things
I think that we understand ourselves now
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aggie03
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The thief on the cross was still under the Old Covenant, which did not require baptism, so using that as an example doesn't work. We have to be baptized for the remission of our sins, that's what the Bible says.
Explain what you mean by we have to do both, Holy Spirit and water.
Explain what you mean by we have to do both, Holy Spirit and water.
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CrossMovement
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aggie03 said:
He did not require baptism ?? but Jesus did get baptism and was on the cross with him , so I don't know why your saying that.
Holy spirit is when you accept him as your personal savior . The baptism in the water is the proof that you have given your life to Christ.
You must really accept him and after that you must prove that you really want to accept him by beeing baptism in the water. No just go and get baptize just to be saved but you don't really care.
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CrossMovement
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CrossMovement said:
It is the immersion thing that bother me , I will ask this word to a guy who can say to me what it mean in french.
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Please show that verse that exactly says that baptism is proof that you are already saved. Please use a direct quote.
And with Mark 16:16, it shows that you must believe AND be baptized to be SAVED. Simple as that.
And with Mark 16:16, it shows that you must believe AND be baptized to be SAVED. Simple as that.
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A Brethren IN CHRIST
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CrossMovement said:like Mar 16:16 says :He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned
We must believe first and then get baptize , it's 2 things
I think that we understand ourselves now
what do you mean then get baptized
H.S. does the baptizing
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A Brethren IN CHRIST
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aggie03 said:Okay, I think that we are honing in on an understanding
You do believe that you have to be baptized in water, completely immersed, for the remission of sins in order to be saved?
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord[diety] Jesus[man] and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth because of righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
confess what............
John 16:8 And when He is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement....futher examplation in vs 9-11
1cor 15:2 By which we are saved if we keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also recieved, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 and that he was buried and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures.
what baptism except 1cor 12:13 which is being put into Christ at that moment of belief
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CrossMovement
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A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
No you don't get my point read this : Holy spirit is when you accept him as your personal savior . The baptism in the water is the proof that you have given your life to Christ.
You must first accept him and then get baptize in the water to gave hte proof that you have given your life to Christ. (It is a proof)
You can accept him as your personnal savior , however you must get baptize after to prove that you really want to gave you life to Christ , simply as that.
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sbbqb7n16
Veteran - Blue Bible Dude
Actually I have since learned that the theif died under the New Covenant.aggie03 said:
He died after Jesus did, and when Jesus died... that was when the veil of the temple was torn enabling all to come to the Father freely. The New Covenant had now come before the theif died.
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sbbqb7n16
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You didn't even read that post did you? Did you even look at the argument? Did you even consider my question? NO. All you looked for was which answer... and then judge me for it?dldjr86 said:
Gal*1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Gal*1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Here you go! Read your own verse for I preach to you a gospel of salvation through the death of Jesus Christ, and you preach a gospel of salvation through water immersion.
And next time... actually read the whole post and consider the argument for once. Go back and read that post again. And answer me the question I ask right after I posted the verse in question.
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sbbqb7n16
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Okay... here ya goCrossMovement said:
Person #1: The thief on the cross
Persons #we don't know how many:
Acts*2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
This verse clearly says that once you have forgiveness of your sins.. .then you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit, right? Well then what happened here if forgiveness of sins is through baptism?
Acts*10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
Acts*10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
Acts*10:45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Acts*10:46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
Acts*10:47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
Acts*10:48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days
Hmmm these people recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. Interesting... I thought you wanted me to believe that forgiveness came through baptism, and that the gift of the Holy Spirit came after forgiveness. That's what Acts 2:38 says anyways. But these people recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit and weren't baptised yet? Your theology makes that impossible.
So answer me this: how did these Gentiles recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE they recieved water baptism?
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aggie03
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sbbqb7n16 said:
How did you learn this, when did you learn it, what are the sources? I think that you can see the point I'm making
. I await your answer eagerly.I'm also interested in hearing about how the theif could have become a member of the church when it wasn't even established until pentecost when the Apostles were baptized with Holy Spirit and Peter preached the first gospel sermon.
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sbbqb7n16
Veteran - Blue Bible Dude
Hmmm that's very interesting... you can quote for us to read Acts 2:38 but you can't believe Acts 2:39....aggie03 said:
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
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aggie03
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sbbqb7n16 said:
I do hope that you realize the implications of the verse that you've quoted and then the example that you've provided. You are claiming that we are adding something to the gospel. This means that if you are preaching something different than us then you might just as well be taking away from the gospel of Christ.
Because we are preaching different things, this means that only one of us can then be correct...so I pray that we might search the scriptures together and learn the Truth that they teach.
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sbbqb7n16
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Actually learned it in church just this Wed. The purpose of the New Covenant is to allow us to come freely to God right? Well the veil was torn the moment that Christ died... therefore God was showing all His Presence was now available when the veil was torn. If you don't believe that I'd like to know why as wellaggie03 said:How did you learn this, when did you learn it, what are the sources? I think that you can see the point I'm making
I'm wondering why you think the first gospel sermon was in Acts....
Matt 11:5 the BLIND RECEIVE SIGHT and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM.
Luke 3:18 So with many other exhortations he preached the gospel to the people.
Luke 4:18 "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
Luke 9:6 Departing, they began going throughout the villages, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.
Luke 16:16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.
Luke 20:1 On one of the days while He was teaching the people in the temple and preaching the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes with the elders confronted Him,
[edited to add]Probably should answer the rest of it right lol Sorry
The church is just the body of believers in Christ.
Acts*5:14 And all the more believers in the Lord, multitudes of men and women, were constantly added to their number,
This doesn't say "the church" was growing but rather "more believers" and apparently this thief was a believer.
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