Gay Clergyman is one vote away from being a Bishop

the_malevolent_milk_man said:

Another related debate is is homosexuality a choice? I can't possibly fathom why I'd ever want to sleep with another man. However a homosexual wants to be with a woman as much as I want to be with a man, or to say not at all. The desire just isn't there for them, just as we have no desire to sleep with people of the same sex. It's almost like calling somebody a sinner because they like the color green instead of blue.

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Let's go with the scenerio that "I was born that way". According to the Bible, we are born into sin. And, because of this, we are all tempted. One Christian's temptation may be to steal. Another's lie. Yet, another fornication. Yet another inappropriate behavior with animals. And another pedofilia. And another homosexuality.

With that in mind, we are all sinners.

With that in mind, sometimes we succumb to these temptations and sin.

With that in mind, we are called by God to repent and place our faith in Jesus to save us from our sins.

Now, REPENT is an important word that this openly gay bishop has failed to do. In fact, I believe he is failing to even acknowledge that the acts of homosexuality are even a sin when it CLEARLY states so in the Bible.

Just because the pity that some have towards the downtroddened gays lead them to the desire to elevate the gays does not mean that rewrite scripture and place them into CHRISTIAN leadership.

Has this man repented of the sin??? How could he when he fails to acknowledge it. I would support the man if he said that his temptation was homosexuality and that he acknowledges the act as a sin and that he repents and struggles with the sin!!

But, he does not repent. Nor does he even acknowledge.

Yes, you can't imagine his temptation. But, what about you. If your temptation was inappropriate behavior with animals, would you want the church to rewrite the Law, teach you THEIR new law, and lead you down the road to destruction??? I pray that you would expect us to pressure you, in love, to change your ways so that you might REPENT and prevent yourself from eternal damnation.

the_malevolent_milk_man said:

So if they already have gay bishops and elect an openly gay bishop would that make their church unfit to lead people? Or is it a non issue since we're all sinners? I'm sure all those other bishops have some other sin that they repeat, we all do. Can you really not elect somebody because they sin differently than you?

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We are ALL sinners. But, the ones who are UNFIT to lead Christians in the necessity of repentance are those who WILL NOT repent of their sins when the sin is brought to their attention.

And ALSO, any leaders who choose other leaders that do not repent or acknowledge what is clearly a sin are unfit to lead themselves, IMHO. Let's change the laws of God to make the congregation FEEL good about themselves AND when they give more to the offering plate, then WE, the leaders, will FEEL good.

Firscherscherling said:

With the unanswered and unanswerable questions being who is doing the polluting, who are the true Christians, and how righteous are those who claim for themselves those things reserved in the theology as exclusively for Jesus and him alone?

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Wrong, Jesus gave the power to the Apostles and to those who will hold to the WORD of God. Judgement will come to me and them, this is true. But, I will not be judged negatively for supporting what scripture reveals as an abomination.

If you are an athiest, you may very well enjoy watching pollution spread with the Christian arena. Maybe even support and encourage its growth.

OK. Just found this Q & A from the Episc. church on the web that describes some of their doctrine. What are your thoughts about their actions in regards to their own doctrine? I think they are violating their own doctrine when I read this.


Q. What are we by nature?
A. We are part of God's creation, made in the image of God.

Q. What does it mean to be created in the image of God?
A. It means that we are free to make choices: to love, to create, to reason, and to live in harmony with creation and with God.

Q. Why then do we live apart from God and out of harmony with creation?
A. From the beginning, human beings have misused their freedom and made wrong choices.

Q. Why do we not use our freedom as we should?
A. Because we rebel against God, and we put ourselves in the place of God.

Q. What help is there for us?
A. Our help is in God.

Q. How did God first help us?
A. God first helped us by revealing himself and his will, through nature and history, through many seers and saints, and especially the prophets of Israel.

Q. What is our duty to God?
A. Our duty is to believe and trust in God;
I To love and obey God and to bring others to know him;
II To put nothing in the place of God;
III To show God respect in thought, word, and deed;
IV And to set aside regular times for worship, prayer, and the study of God's ways.

Q. What is our duty to our neighbors?
A. Our duty to our neighbors is to love them as ourselves, and to do to other people as we wish them to do to us;
V To love, honor, and help our parents and family; to honor those in authority, and to meet their just demands;
VI To show respect for the life God has given us; to work and pray for peace; to bear no malice, prejudice, or hatred in our hearts; and to be kind to all the creatures of God;
VII To use our bodily desires as God intended;
VIII To be honest and fair in our dealings; to seek justice, freedom, and the necessities of life for all people; and to use our talents and possessions as ones who must answer for them to God;
IX To speak the truth, and not to mislead others by our silence;
X To resist temptations to envy, greed, and jealousy; to rejoice in other people's gifts and graces; and to do our duty for the love of God, who has called us into fellowship with him.

Q. How is the Holy Spirit revealed in the New Covenant?
A. The Holy Spirit is revealed as the Lord who leads us into all truth and enables us to grow in the likeness of Christ.

Q. How do we recognize the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives?
A. We recognize the presence of the Holy Spirit when we confess Jesus Christ as Lord and are brought into love and harmony with God, with ourselves, with our neighbors, and with all creation.

Q. How do we recognize the truths taught by the Holy Spirit?
A. We recognize truths to be taught by the Holy Spirit when they are in accord with the Scriptures.

Q. What is the ministry of a bishop?
A. The ministry of a bishop is to represent Christ and his Church, particularly as apostle, chief priest, and pastor of a diocese; to guard the faith, unity, and discipline of the whole Church; to proclaim the Word of God; to act in Christ's name for the reconciliation of the world and the building up of the Church; and to ordain others to continue Christ's ministry.

Q. What is penitence?
A. In penitence, we confess our sins and make restitution where possible, with the intention to amend our lives.

the_malevolent_milk_man said:

This just in... Robinson cleared of allegations

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And the 9th of AV begins at 10:32 AM eastern time tomorrow.

the_malevolent_milk_man said:

Heard it's official he got elected. Let's play a game now. I'll post a bible quote on why women shouldn't be allowed into the ministry and you post a bible quote why homosexuals shouldn't. First side to run out of quotes loses! I'll start it off

1 Corinthians

"14:34
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

14:35
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church"

Deuteronomy

"22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."


Oh hey look, there's that word ABOMINATION again! I've heard that one tossed around alot in regards to homosexuality. Should pants suits, jeans, t shirts, button up shirts, boxers, etc be considered a sin? Quick! somebody save those women from sin!

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Nothing like being inflammatory AND baiting, huh?

Start a new thread and we'll discuss the merits of females in lead roles in the church.

Just finished reading all 13 pages of this thread.

What stands out to me is those who are for the acceptance of homosexuality have a very low view of the Bible as the word of God. Those who are not accepting of gay lifestyle as legitimate, site the bible as the reason for that position they are taking.

So it really comes down to believing that the Bible IS the word of God and has the authority to be "the final say".

Now there are some just plain mean Christian folks who say and do some pretty nasty stuff, and for them I apologize on their behalf.

We are to speak the truth, but it is to spoken with LOVE. Sometimes truth isn't always pleasant. On the other side of the coin Love without truth is empty.

Truth in Love.

Jack

I hope the Episcopal church does not allow this to go through. It is clearly against the teachings of the Bible and the apostles. It will be another sign of how far many have strayed and the apostacy that was predicted to occur shortly before the Lord's return (so maybe it's a good thing after all, if it's a sign the Lord's return is nearer)

the_malevolent_milk_man said:

This really is one of the "You're either with us or against us" things for christians. I can see why christians think it's wrong since it says so in the Bible. What I can't grasp is why it's wrong, other than it's in the bible. I guess I'm not a christian anymore because there were just to many of those questions and I can't accept "Because it's in the bible".

Another related debate is is homosexuality a choice? I can't possibly fathom why I'd ever want to sleep with another man. However a homosexual wants to be with a woman as much as I want to be with a man, or to say not at all. The desire just isn't there for them, just as we have no desire to sleep with people of the same sex. It's almost like calling somebody a sinner because they like the color green instead of blue.


So if they already have gay bishops and elect an openly gay bishop would that make their church unfit to lead people? Or is it a non issue since we're all sinners? I'm sure all those other bishops have some other sin that they repeat, we all do. Can you really not elect somebody because they sin differently than you?

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Its wrong for the simple fact of design. Relationships and sex were not designed in a gay fashion. When gay thoughts arise, a flag should rise to, saying that something is wrong. Just because you feel like doing it doesn't make it right. I used to destroy my toys as a kid when I got mad, was it because I was chemicaly imbalanced? Nope, it was because of my stinking thinking. I soon realized the problem and adjusted it.

People are not born gay, they become someone who participates in a gay lifestyle. If this lifestyle is excepted there will be trouble for those who realize that the lifestyle is wrong, but at the same time have feelings for it.
If it was never on tv, no gay bars, no magazines of it, a person that has this problem would deal with it. But if they have the problem and all of this stuff is going on, it could mean ending marriages with broken hearts of kids and spouse. And don't give me that "well they were denying thereselves" becuase the fact is they had kids, something must have been working properly for that to happen.

Gayness is not genetically proven, unless something was in the news in the last few days that I have missed.

Does this clergyman believe the gay lifestyle is ok and exceptable? Does he have a partner of this lifestyle?

Yes, he has a partner.

I have a serious problem with this, and only partly because he's gay. Would you, as a churchgoer, be willing to follow a minister who's living with another person, in a sexual relationship, as his leader? Heh, keep in mind, my fiancee and I live together, and we're not married yet, so I don't have a particular problem with it. And, while I don't support homosexuality, I don't condemn the person either. However.......

Your church leaders are in a position where they have to help members with tough issues. While this man says he won't promote the gay community in his job, how can he not? If someone comes to him saying, Father, I'm having feelings toward another person of my sex, and I know that the Bible says this is wrong, how do I deal with it? I find it hard to believe that he won't say that it's not wrong, and to follow your feelings.

I also have no respect for a man who claims to love the church, but in the same breath continues to follow a path that will very likely lead to the splitting and devastation of his denomination....that's not a man who loves his church, is it?

Heffie,

Remember, it is the members and people of the church who have chosen him as a leader. This man feels called to the position. Would it be right for him to deny that call and deny the wishes of the people who want to have him lead them?

They apparently have a great deal of respect for this man. He loves his church a great deal. Why else would he go through this?

New Hampshire has decided to let a gay, unrepentant, scripture-changing, divorced man lead their children and future generations down the path of righteousness, despite the New Testament rules governing such appointments.

Despite what the Bible says, the committee that approved his nomination will not DENY the christians of New Hampshire from freely being led by the Holy Spirit in regards to decisions that are made when they are led by the Holy Spirit.

Basically, the committee is like Pontius Pilate. They have washed their hands of the decision and have allowed the christians of New Hampshire to be led by the Holy Spirit. They have allowed New Hampshire to act upon their SPIRITUAL desires.

Now, even though the Holy Spirit in New Hampshire may lead this group to do something in direct contrast to written scripture (which is of lesser value, since churches in the early church may have been guided by the Holy Spirit to do one thing and another church another), the committee will still step aside and give the people (of New Hampshire) what THEY want. Because, again, to them, the Holy Spirit takes precedence over the written word, which may be polluted and geared to Christians in need of different spiritual guidance from God.

Seems like the perfect church for unrepentant sinners and those who disagree with the God and apostles of the Bible.

SUNSTONE said:

Does this clergyman believe the gay lifestyle is ok and exceptable? Does he have a partner of this lifestyle?

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We don't have a lifestyle we have lives.

Quoted from www.fallwell.com a site not affiliated with Jerry Falwell but against his hatred towards homosexuals.

"The thing that drives me crazy...

Millions of people the world over believe things that defy common sense and logic. It's not as uncommon as one might think. Fundamentalists are certainly not immune from this propensity. In fact, they are often more inclined toward it than their non-legalistic counterparts.

Some fundamentalists have been preaching of late that "having a gay orientation is not a sin, but doing something about it is." As a gay man, I find that incredibly insulting and cruel. Allow me to explain why. What they are REALLY saying is, "...in order for you to live a moral life, you can never have sexual relations and you must live a life devoid of true romantic love. You have to give up on your dreams of finding your soul mate."

Of course, when your interpretation of the Bible is so wrought with problems of logic and suffers from the absence of even the most basic scholarship, such malignancies in thought are bound to develop. How unfortunate that fundamentalists have such hardened hearts that one of their major goals is to prevent a certain group of people from loving each other.

'Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.' Matthew 7:15"

If homosexuality is a choice, when did all of you choose to be straight?

If homosexuality is not a choice then how is it that some people turn away from that lifestyle?