What was the religion of Jesus?

afnospam wrote: If you read OT scripture you understand that sin is passesd on the patriarchial side. As Christ's father was God Himself, no sin was passed.

Composer responds: The Scriptures demonstrate otherwise -

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: {for sin: or, by a sacrifice for sin} (Rom. 8:3) KJS

NB. - God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, . . . (Rom. 8:3)

Diaglott Greek renders: God, having sent his own Son in a Form of the Flesh of Sin, even [by an offering] for Sin, . . . (Rom. 8:3)

If any try to claim that "likeness" somehow means "not like us" then that god is a liar, a deceiver and a fraud.

For we are exhorted to "follow Christ's steps", so unless "our flesh" is just the "same" as his flesh, then we can not do as the Scriptures demand that we do. (1 Pet. 2:21- 22)

Jesus was also tempted (Heb. 4:15)

God can not be tempted (James 1:13)

In order for a "legitimate" temptation to occur, the person tempted must be legitimately "open / susceptible" to that temptation, if not, then that person is a fraud and a false example. Jesus was only able to overcome his inherent sinful Adamic "cursed nature" that we "all" in the flesh inherently possess (Gen. 3:17; Rom. 3:23; Rom. 5:12), because God rewarded him with that power to resist it, because of Jesus' complete submission to God's Will, instead of Jesus following his own inherent sinful, self-will, as did Adam (Luke 22:42).

If there were no possibility for Jesus to have ever been tempted, then the Scriptures lie. (e. g. Heb. 4:15; Rom. 8:3)

I shall deal with your current misunderstandings One at a time.

Amen Composer.

Shabbat Shalom,
Tag

vajradhara said:

Namaste TWells,

if you perfer, i'll address you as Travis

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Thats fine.

ok... i agree with you so far... so the Church adopted these Creeds, which changed with time, for what reason? what would the effect be of saying the Creed or of not saying the Creed?

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Which doctrines would you be reffering to changed over time?

I think your misunderstanding my position on the creeds (and most protestants in general) I dont recite creeds or use them in worship or think they are essential to my faith. Like I said earlier they are helpful as a simplified statement of faith. Many of them such as the Nicene creed state very well ones position on the Trinity therefore it allows us to quickly tell where a persons stance is based on whether or not they agree with it. Creeds really arnt a big issue to me.

as for Pagels... i realize the implications of her accusations however, she does not appear to be incorrect. i will conceed that she is interpeting a set of facts in a certain way, but they are facts nonetheless.

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Im sorry but its very, very hard to take a sentionalist like Pagels seriously after reading Witherington, Wright, Sanders, Meier, Brown etc. Her grossly early dating of Thomas is a very minority position within New Testament scholarship. I would recommend reading "Hidden Gospels" by Phillip Jenkins, a non Christian who goes over many of her and others claims concerning the later Gospels like Thomas and Peter.

actually, i see nothing wrong with a simplified statement of faith... provided that the faith is simple. in a certain respect, Christianity is a simple religion.. however, it's Theology is quite complex... depending on the tradition that you adhere to.

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Yes, Christian theology can be complex but like you said its very simple as a child can understand the Gospel. Eventually though you move on from milk to meat. Honestly I dont really understand the preoccupation with the creeds they simply arnt a issue to most of us. If you dissagree with a doctrine I believe in, im not going to cite creeds, im going to cite scripture.

here's the thing... there are other passages that would, if read contextually, lead one to conclude that Jesus never said He was God and in fact told us to give all our worship and glory to God.. "He that sent me."

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Well, I believe that your quite simply wrong there. In fact reading the NT in its social and historical context makes even clearer Jesus's claims to deity (for example that He claimed He was Wisdom) Before you pass judgement you should read for instance the article I listed above and maybe some stuff by Ben Witherington III or N.T. Wright. The NT isnt a Sunday newspaper written for a westerner in 2003. Im sure being familiar with the differences in Eastern/Western mindsets your aware of this.

In Christ,

Travis

Jesus was also tempted (Heb. 4:15)

God can not be tempted (James 1:13)

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Jesus had a dual nature; fully man, and fully God. In LUke 4 the devil tried to tempt Jesus --- but Jesus declined every temptation. Furthermore, how did Jesus RESPOND to the devil suggesting that He "throw Himself down from the pinnacle so that the ANGELS would rescue Him"? How did Jesus respond? "It is written that YOU SHALL NOT TEMPT THE LORD THY GOD!"

James 1 says "God is not tempted by evil things"; this does not deny that Jesus' fleshly side WAS tempted by the devil (evil PERSON rather than evil THING), but His divine nature was not really tempted. This is encouragement to us --- for if we walk in the FLESH, according to OUR fleshly nature, then temptation is a real danger; but if we walk in the SPIRIT, then temptation holds no power over us. Rom8:12-17

Throughout Scripture Jesus is EQUATED with God; Jesus Himself said, "You believe in God, believe also in Me." (Jn14) Paul says in Philip2, "Although Jesus existed inthe very FORM of God, did not regard EQUALITY with God to be ROBBERY; but laid aside His privileges, taking the form of bond-servent, being found in appearance as a man, became obedient even to death..."

I shall deal with your current misunderstandings One at a time.

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I look forward to joining in the responses...

Composer wrote: Jesus was also tempted (Heb. 4:15)

God can not be tempted (James 1:13)

So please inform us Ben Johnson, precisely where were the allegedly "godly" bits of Jesus hiding whilst the fleshy bits were being tempted?

Don't say it is a mystery of godliness.

Ben Johnson wrote: How did Jesus respond? "It is written that YOU SHALL NOT TEMPT THE LORD THY GOD!"

Composer writes: Jesus also said - I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

NB I can of mine own self DO NOTHING, yet you are claiming that God can do nothing of himself?

Jesus clearly did not have two wills that he could interchange, one mortal and one godly, but ONE will, his own.

Jesus did not state, because I seek not mine own wills . . .

Jesus is clear that he himself can do NOTHING.

And how did Jesus also respond when he was called GOOD -

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is], God. (Luke 18:19) KJS

If I were to say to you, "good Ben Johnson" and your response was "why are you calling me good, none is good except one (that is to say, that One being only), — GOD", then any rational person would conclude that you are saying that you Ben Johnson were not good, but only GOD is good, therefore you are admitting that you are not GOD.

That is common sense.

God is Perfect and can not contain a contradiction.

To suggest therefore that a Perfect God can reside in a mortal and corruptible fleshly and "sinful" body is absurd.

God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh . . (Rom. 8: 3) KJS

True that Jesus DID no SIN, but his body was certainly sinful - Proof: -

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: {for that: or, in whom} (Rom. 5:12) KJS

Jesus was a man, just like us (Acts 2:22) KJS

So how does a perfect God reside in an imperfect and inherently sinful fleshly body?

Ben johnson said:

Jesus had a dual nature; fully man, and fully God. In LUke 4 the devil tried to tempt Jesus --- but Jesus declined every temptation. Furthermore, how did Jesus RESPOND to the devil suggesting that He "throw Himself down from the pinnacle so that the ANGELS would rescue Him"? How did Jesus respond? "It is written that YOU SHALL NOT TEMPT THE LORD THY GOD!"

James 1 says "God is not tempted by evil things"; this does not deny that Jesus' fleshly side WAS tempted by the devil (evil PERSON rather than evil THING), but His divine nature was not really tempted. This is encouragement to us --- for if we walk in the FLESH, according to OUR fleshly nature, then temptation is a real danger; but if we walk in the SPIRIT, then temptation holds no power over us. Rom8:12-17

Throughout Scripture Jesus is EQUATED with God; Jesus Himself said, "You believe in God, believe also in Me." (Jn14) Paul says in Philip2, "Although Jesus existed inthe very FORM of God, did not regard EQUALITY with God to be ROBBERY; but laid aside His privileges, taking the form of bond-servent, being found in appearance as a man, became obedient even to death..."
I look forward to joining in the responses...

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http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=greeklexicon&isindex=3444
3444 morphe mor-fay' perhaps from the base of 3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts); shape; figuratively, nature:--form.

http://www.bible.org/netbible/index.htm
Philippians 2:5 You should have the same attitude toward one another that Christ Jesus had, 6 who though he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself by taking on the form of a slave, by looking like other men, and by sharing in human nature. 8 He humbled himself, by becoming obedient to the point of death —even death on a cross! 9 As a result God exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow —in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess to the glory of God the Father that Jesus Christ is Lord.


http://www.ebible.org/bible/hnv/
Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians
15:20 But now Messiah has been raised from the dead. He became the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since death came by man, the resurrection of the dead also came by man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Messiah all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Messiah the first fruits, then those who are Messiah's, at his coming.
24 Then the end comes, when he will deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he will have abolished all rule and all authority and power;
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For, "He put all things in subjection under his feet." But when he says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him.
28 When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.

NOTE: the BIG LETTERED words are YHWH and the smaller BOLD lettered words are Yeshua.
Yeshua was given all authority by YHWH until Yeshua subjects everything in Heaven and Earth to Him and then He, Yeshua will be subjected to YHWH.
May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,

Tag

Composer said:

Ben Johnson wrote: How did Jesus respond? "It is written that YOU SHALL NOT TEMPT THE LORD THY GOD!"

Jesus was a man, just like us (Acts 2:22) KJS

So how does a perfect God reside in an imperfect and inherently sinful fleshly body?

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God can exist in flesh... try telling that to Christ himself when he returns, that would be amusing.

I mean, would you argue with Christ on this before judgement?

One thing though, Jesus lived as a human, I agree with you

however, Jesus as opposed to all other humans, is returning to live on earth over 1900 years after He left the Planet.

Are you sure He is just LIKE US?? THIS IS WHAT people totally forget.

When was the last time one OF US DIED RESURRECTED, APPEARED-DISAPPEARED and returned to live on Earth over 1950 years later??

Intriguing......

Oh, Christ spoke to Daniel as well in Daniel 10:5 He was active before He was born in Judea centuries later...

Just like us???

Composer wrote: Jesus was also tempted (Heb. 4:15)

God can not be tempted (James 1:13)

So please inform us Ben Johnson, precisely where were the allegedly "godly" bits of Jesus hiding whilst the fleshy bits were being tempted?

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Suppose I had billions and billions of dollars; suppose I prayed to God, "Father, if you will only take my two biggest competitors home (heart attacks or car wrecks or somethin'), I'll donate ten billion dollars to the needy and to Your churches." How will God respond? I think He is likely to say, "You SHALL NOT TEMPT God!"

...isn't this purty much what happened with JESUS? The devil said, "I'll give you all these things if you worship me; of you're really GOD then throw Yourself off that the angels will catch You." Jesus said, "You SHALL NOT TEMPT the LORD your GOD!"

I don't see the problem!

NB I can of mine own self DO NOTHING, yet you are claiming that God can do nothing of himself?

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Hmmm; didjya miss the Philip 2 passage? Jesus laid aside His priviliges, and became obedient, humbled HIMSELF. Do you remember GETHSEMANE? Jesus most certainly could have refused the CROSS --- but He was constrained (by Himself) to go forward.

Do you understand the idea of PERSONALITIES? Have you ever seen the movie, "SYBIL"? She had nine different personalities; and none could do everything that the others could, none knew everything the others did; yet they were all the same woman. SIMILARLY (don't get mad at me comparing God to a Human mental disfunction, we're only talking MECHANICS) God is ONE ENTITY, existing in THREE PERSONS. Thus "Jesus does not kinow everything the Father does" (Matt24:36), and yet Jesus is fully God (no beginning: Heb7:3, Thomas called Him God Jn20:28, Peter called HimGod 2:1:1, etc.). If Jesus is NOT God then He had a beginning, right? How then does Jn1:3 say "all things came into being Through Jesus, and apart from Jesus came nothing into being that has come into being"? Why does Rev3:14 call Jesus "the ORIGIN/SOURCE of all creation"? Make a choice --- either Jesus was CREATED, or Jesus was GOD. And here are verses that say "ALL THINGS were created THROUGH Him"...

All right, if you are STILL reluctant to recognize Jesus as God, then please read Luke 4:7; do you admit that only GOD may be worshipped? I can give you DOZENS of verses where Jesus accepted worship, willingly. (And I will, if you wish!)

Leaving you with only two choices:
2. Jesus was a BLASPHEMER...
1. Jesus was GOD...

Which will you choose? Number one, or number two; there is no spoon. ERRR, UHMMM, I mean, there is no number THREE!. (Yikes!)

Shalom Ben johnson,

YHWH a Raving lunatic? ROFLMBO. Reckon I am ONE with Yeshua on that one if it is true, I doubt it. Multiple personalities that don't know what the other is doing?

Explain this one please:
The Good News According to Matthew
24:36 But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
That is Yeshua speaking.

When Joseph was given the Authority of Pharaoh didn't all people worship him as if he was Pharaoh? Of course they did or their heads would be chopped off per se.

Tag

Shamash Of Yeshua said:

Shalom Ben johnson,

YHWH a Raving lunatic? ROFLMBO. Reckon I am ONE with Yeshua on that one if it is true, I doubt it. Multiple personalities that don't know what the other is doing?

Explain this one please:
The Good News According to Matthew
24:36 But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
That is Yeshua speaking.

When Joseph was given the Authority of Pharaoh didn't all people worship him as if he was Pharaoh? Of course they did or their heads would be chopped off per se.

Tag

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Very easy. Jesus in human form would divulge information that befit his human form especially regarding events that would happen centuries after all the disciples would be dead anyway. He did not need to tell them anything for they would ALL BE DEAD by the end and NATIONS LIKE USA, BRITAIN , nuclear wars, jet fighters, AIDS, space craft, Star Wars etc would mean nothing to the likes of the disciples.....
Jesus's role requires a lot of wisdom to understand.

In human form, His number one priority was to teach, not to tell of issues from His Godly point of view, that no human could hope to understand. Yes, He was God in fllesh but His aim was to teach humbleness due to the foolish pride in common mortals.

Jesus at the right time then gives the end time Revelations to John.
Hence when the disciples asked him, in his wisdom, he told them that no one knew ( again Jesus was speaking as a brother, NOT AS THEIR CREATOR--- you need to understand the wisdom of his role.

Thanks for your remarks:

You wrote: ...isn't this purty much what happened with JESUS? The devil said, "I'll give you all these things if you worship me; of you're really GOD then throw Yourself off that the angels will catch You." Jesus said, "You SHALL NOT TEMPT the LORD your GOD!"

I don't see the problem!

Composer responds: Let us examine the Original Greek Text -

And he brought him to Jerusalem, and placed him on the wing of the temple; and said to him: If a son thou art of the God, cast thyself from this place down. (Luke 4: 9) Diaglott NT Interlinear.

Now for a start, it is stated that the temptations were in the Wilderness / desert, but here it is stated that Jesus was taken to the City of Jerusalem?

The Scriptures do NOT contradict themselves.

The temptations can NOT be in the city and in the wilderness, for that is a contradiction.

Jesus "was in all points tempted like as we are" (Heb. 4:15), but who today is ever engaged in discussion by a fallen angel devil?
A temptation, to be a temptation, must be plausible, but if a fallen angel offered to Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, Jesus would know he were a fake. God, "the most High, {not a fallen angel}, ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will." (Dan. 4:32). Jesus knew his Old Testament.

This alleged devil could legitimately offer Jesus NOTHING, for God controls who has what and when.

Indeed, this alleged devil / Satan does not even own the "souls" that Orthodoxy teaches that it is allegedly interested in - Proof: -

[As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have [occasion] any more to use this proverb in Israel. 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezek. 18:3 - 4) KJS

So this alleged Orthodox alleged devil / Satan has NOTHING, at any time.

There is considerable evidence that the temptations were subjective, (i.e., that the conflicts within Jesus are presented in the narratives as if there was a dialogue between Jesus and Satan, when in effect Satan is only a personification1 of the pull of the desires of Jesus. - (cf. James 1:13-15).

Satan is simply a Hebrew word / metaphor meaning an ADVERSARY / OPPOSER.

What does the Bible state is God's GREATEST ADVERSARY / Satan / OPPOSER that Jesus came to deal with (Heb. 2:14), is it this alleged fallen heavenly angel?

Scriptures please?

(You will discover that it is NOT!) but I welcome your efforts to claim otherwise?

That will suffice for now else the Posts become too lengthy.

Just to clarify a major point and misunderstanding you appear to have, you wrote: -

Jesus at the right time then gives the end time Revelations to John.

Composer responds: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: (Rev. 1: 1) KJS

So you see that the information was initiated from God, who then gave it to Jesus, who then gave it to the angel who then gave it to John.

Now if Jesus were God as claimed, then why did God need to give it to Jesus?

Jesus Christ didn't have a religion, nor did he need one. Jesus Christ was and is VERY GOD, the LORD OF HOSTS, ALMIGHTY GOD, OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR, and THE LORD OF ALL.

Well 357 Magnum, you might blunder in with your magnum blazing but you offer absolutely NO Scriptures to support your claims.

You have only shot yourself in the foot, for your current opinion is therefore unfortunately worthless unless it is legitimately supported by sound Scriptures.

So if you wish to support your claims with said Scriptures, please do so?

Composer said:

Just to clarify a major point and misunderstanding you appear to have, you wrote: -

Jesus at the right time then gives the end time Revelations to John.

Composer responds: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: (Rev. 1: 1) KJS

So you see that the information was initiated from God, who then gave it to Jesus, who then gave it to the angel who then gave it to John.

Now if Jesus were God as claimed, then why did God need to give it to Jesus?

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That was was written to maintain the relationship taught to Earthlings

that is Christ appearing with a Revelation from God. That is the understanding given to mortals and that will suffice the mortal.

It does not imply Jesus did not know the Revelation.. the implied separation is to simply draw from the 1st advent example which is still presented to humans even at that latter stage.
Again, think about the fact that you cannot ask Christ this directly when He appears since His word is final.

There is considerable evidence that the temptations were subjective, (i.e., that the conflicts within Jesus are presented in the narratives as if there was a dialogue between Jesus and Satan, when in effect Satan is only a personification1 of the pull of the desires of Jesus. - (cf. James 1:13-15).

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So Jesus, the One who KNEW NO SIN (2Cor5:1) was lusting and pining after things, struggling within Himself over the possession of lands and material things??? That's how you see it?

And there IS no devil? The devil will be mighty pleased if you really believe that; we cannot defend against that which we do not believe exists. If the devil IS REAL, then "I don't exist" is very much his most useful weapon. What of verses like 1Pet5:8-9 ("The devil stalks as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour; but resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that your brothers also suffer...") --- and how about James 4:7-8 ("Submit therefore to God; resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.") --- you don't really believe in a coinscious, sentient, personal devil???

This alleged devil could legitimately offer Jesus NOTHING, for God controls who has what and when.
So this alleged Orthodox alleged devil / Satan has NOTHING, at any time.

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Technically, true; yet read Luke4:6: "And the devil said to Him, 'I will give you all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish". So we see that the devil, albeit by guile and trickery and lies and deceit, has been GIVEN the lands by witless man (witless man to whom God had given the lands FIRST!); thus satan DID have the authority to offer them to Jesus; mankind had signed OVER that authority TO the devil. Do you see?

The temptations can NOT be in the city and in the wilderness, for that is a contradiction.

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The devil is a hyperdimensional being. He exists in FIVE-SPACE; while we exist in four (three spatial dimensions and time). The devil can travel from point to point in an instant. Have you ever read, "The Satan Seller"? A satanist priest was relaxing in his living room when a girl "popped out of the air in front of him and delivered a message, then vanished in the same method." It doesn't matter whether or not you believe this, and you likely won't (because you don't seem to believe in a conscious devil); but it would have been no problem at all for an angel to have carried Jesus to the exact places described...

(Do you believe in GOOD angels?)

but who today is ever engaged in discussion by a fallen angel devil?

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It actually happens more often than you think. What would be the draw of satanism if not for the presence of real, conscious, sentient demons?

Please read Eph6; it says, "we battle not against flesh and blood, but..." and then it describes, DEMONS. So we are to "put on the full armor of God". And yet, it is critical that we be cautious of our focus; as Jesus said in Luke 10:17-20, "I have given you authority over serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy (the seventy had joyfully seen they had power over even demons), and NOTHING shall hurt you; nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the SPIRITS (the ones you don't believe in, Composer) are subject to you; rejoice instead that your names are written in Heaven." So it is no big deal that demons are subject to us, but our focus is Heaven!

If you think about it, those who follow demons are arguably the most STUPID creatures in the Universe; following the NEXT most stupid creatures, the ones who HAD Heaven, and threw it AWAY!

Jesus, the first Catholic.

Thanks for your comments.

There is considerable evidence that the temptations were subjective, (i.e., that the conflicts within Jesus are presented in the narratives as if there was a dialogue between Jesus and Satan, when in effect Satan is only a personification1 of the pull of the desires of Jesus. - (cf. James 1:13-15).

BJ wrote: So Jesus, the One who KNEW NO SIN (2Cor5:1) was lusting and pining after things, struggling within Himself over the possession of lands and material things??? That's how you see it?

Composer responds: Not at all. Jesus was indeed tempted as we all in the flesh are (Heb. 4:15) KJS, but he never succumbed to that temptation. That is the whole point?

BJ wrote: And there IS no devil? The devil will be mighty pleased if you really believe that; we cannot defend against that which we do not believe exists. If the devil IS REAL, then "I don't exist" is very much his most useful weapon. What of verses like 1Pet5:8-9 ("The devil stalks as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour; but resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that your brothers also suffer...")

Composer responds: Of course the devil is merely a word that describes an ungodly type of person. The Original Greek renders -

Be you sober, be you watchful; the opponent of you an accuser, like a lion roaring, walks about seeking whom he may gulp down, ( 1pet. 5: 8) Diaglott NT Original Greek Text Interlinear.

Now I don't see a devil supernatural being here, do you?

BJ wrote: --- and how about James 4:7-8 ("Submit therefore to God; resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.") --- you don't really believe in a coinscious, sentient, personal devil???

Composer responds: Ok, let us again examine the original Greek Text -

James 4: 7 Be you subject therefore to the God; be opposed to the accuser, and he will flee from you;

James 4:8 draw you near to the God, and he will draw near to you; cleanse you hands, sinners, and purify you hearts, two-souled ones.

So you see, again we have a simple "diabolos" = accuser, no sign of a fallen heavenly angel supernatural being?


Composer wrote: This alleged devil could legitimately offer Jesus NOTHING, for God controls who has what and when.
So this alleged Orthodox alleged devil / Satan has NOTHING, at any time.

BJ wrote: echnically, true; yet read Luke4:6: "And the devil said to Him, 'I will give you all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish".

Composer responds: Let us examine the Original Greek again, what does it say this time? - And said to him the accuser: To thee I will give the authority this all, and the glory of them; that to me it has been prepared, and to whoever I will, I give her; (Luke 4: 6) Diaglott

BJ wrote: So we see that the devil, albeit by guile and trickery and lies and deceit, has been GIVEN the lands by witless man (witless man to whom God had given the lands FIRST!);

Composer responds: Now I thought that this alleged satan / devil being was only interested in our alleged "souls"?


BJ wrote: thus satan DID have the authority to offer them to Jesus; mankind had signed OVER that authority TO the devil. Do you see?

Composer responds: For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. 22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth , and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. {rooted: or, plucked up} (Prov. 2:21 - 22) KJS

So do you now see that your hypothesis is flawed, for God would certainly NOT contradict Himself and give this alleged devil being the authority of the earth, in fact the opposite, the "wicked shall be cut off from it". Now please don't say that it will eventually, for that is absurd also for the following reasons -

But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong [his] days, [which are] as a shadow; because he feareth not before God. (Eccl. 8:13) KJS

He preserveth not the life of the wicked: but giveth right to the poor. {poor: or, afflicted} (Job 36: 6) KJS

So this alleged wicked being sure would not be tolerated for thousands of years, for God does not contradict Himself.

Composer wrote: The temptations can NOT be in the city and in the wilderness, for that is a contradiction.

BJ wrote:The devil is a hyperdimensional being. He exists in FIVE-SPACE; while we exist in four (three spatial dimensions and time). The devil can travel from point to point in an instant. Have you ever read, "The Satan Seller"? A satanist priest was relaxing in his living room when a girl "popped out of the air in front of him and delivered a message, then vanished in the same method." It doesn't matter whether or not you believe this, and you likely won't (because you don't seem to believe in a conscious devil); but it would have been no problem at all for an angel to have carried Jesus to the exact places described...

Composer responds: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (1 Tim. 4: 1) KJS

And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables . (2 Tim. 4: 4) KJS

God forewarns us about those who tell such unfounded stories and fables BJ. Take warning that you are in that category.

BJ wrote: (Do you believe in GOOD angels?)

Composer responds: ALL heavenly angels are good and there are NO fallen angels Proof: -

1. The wages of Sin is death (Rom. 6:23) KJS
2. Heavenly angels NEVER DIE (Luke 20:36) KJS

If you can never die, then you can never sin (Cyclic reasoning)

Result = No fallen angels, no supernatural devil being, no Satan being etc.

Composer wrote: but who today is ever engaged in discussion by a fallen angel devil?


BJ wrote: It actually happens more often than you think. What would be the draw of satanism if not for the presence of real, conscious, sentient demons?

Please read Eph6; it says, "we battle not against flesh and blood, but..." and then it describes, DEMONS. So we are to "put on the full armor of God". And yet, it is critical that we be cautious of our focus; as Jesus said in Luke 10:17-20, "I have given you authority over serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy (the seventy had joyfully seen they had power over even demons), and NOTHING shall hurt you; nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the SPIRITS (the ones you don't believe in, Composer) are subject to you; rejoice instead that your names are written in Heaven." So it is no big deal that demons are subject to us, but our focus is Heaven!

If you think about it, those who follow demons are arguably the most STUPID creatures in the Universe; following the NEXT most stupid creatures, the ones who HAD Heaven, and threw it AWAY!

Composer responds: Baseless conjecture. Cyclic reasoning and the Scriptures demonstrate your current misunderstandings.

Thanks for your input.