What was the religion of Jesus?

[Wills]

He preserveth not the life of the wicked: but giveth right to the poor. {poor: or, afflicted} (Job 36: 6) KJS

So this alleged wicked being sure would not be tolerated for thousands of years, for God does not
contradict Himself.
------------------------

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAY GOD COMING DOWN TO KILL

1 COCAINE PRODUCERS AND DEALERS WHO MAKE BILLIONS AND LEAVE IN MANSIONS

2 SCIENTISTS WHO PEDDLE EVOLUTION AND INSULT GOD

3- HIT MEN AND MILLIONAIRE MOBSTERS

GOD HAS ALLOWED FREE WILL AND ALLOWS THE SUN TO SHINE ON ALL

It is totally unscriptural to lie that God contradicts himself when He has allowed people

to exercise free will and actually does not kill murderers, exploiters etc--- till judgement.

 

[nChrist]

Well 357 Magnum, you might blunder in with your magnum blazing but you offer absolutely NO Scriptures to support your claims.

You have only shot yourself in the foot, for your current opinion is therefore unfortunately worthless unless it is legitimately supported by sound Scriptures.

So if you wish to support your claims with said Scriptures, please do so?

I offer the entire Holy Bible, from cover to cover. It is an old book, but it contains much wisdom for anyone who takes the time to read it.

You will discover that Almighty God is a Holy Trinity, yet One God:

1. God, the Father.
2. God, the Son, Jesus Christ.
3. God, the Holy Spirit.

You will find prophesy in the Old Testament that foretells the reality of the Holy Trinity, but much of it remained a mystery to man until about 2,000 years ago. It is apparently still a mystery to some. Yes, Jesus Christ was and is very God. He was crucified on a cross for all, yet he arose from the dead and IS THE LORD AND SAVIOUR for all who accept HIM as THE LORD of their lives. Jesus is the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE, no man comes to the FATHER but by HIM. You'll have to start with that since I don't have time to quote the entire Holy Bible to you. You can also read the verses in my signature block.

Look down, I think there is a hole in your foot.

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Shalom WMD JK 357Magnum,

You can look at my signature but read from verse 20. Of course there is much more that shows that Yeshua is The SON of YHWH. For HE, YHWH had a SON through Mary. And also many times Yeshua speaks of YHWH as His Father and Ours as well. I need to add something else in thought. Remember Moses, well that was in Egypt as well, considering Joseph, well Moses was considered the Son of Pharaoh, Yet he chose not to be treated as a Son of Pharaoh. Same with Yeshua, He chose not to use His Deity that He received from YHWH to save Himself from Death to pay for MAN's SIN.


http://www.ebible.org/bible/hnv/
Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians
15:20 But now Messiah has been raised from the dead. He became the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since death came by man, the resurrection of the dead also came by man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Messiah all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Messiah the first fruits, then those who are Messiah's, at his coming.
24 Then the end comes, when he will deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he will have abolished all rule and all authority and power;
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For, "He put all things in subjection under his feet." But when he says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him.
28 When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.

NOTE: the BIG LETTERED words are YHWH and the smaller BOLD lettered words are Yeshua.
Yeshua was given all authority by YHWH until Yeshua subjects everything in Heaven and Earth to Him and then He, Yeshua will be subjected to YHWH.

May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,

Tag

 

[CrossMovement]

Jesus was a Jew. He clearly supported the Jewish scriptures, went to the Jewish temple, was born to Jewish parents, etc. Have you ever seen the bumper sticker saying, "My boss is a Jewish carpenter?" Yep, that's Jesus.

I didn't read all the post , I have just read the first one so sorry if i'm not in the context of the last page.

For the question.

Jesus was a Jew but I Don't like to say it that way so just read this thing and if you don't agree than just reply

Are we Christian , Baptist , Catholic , NO ... We are Believers of God and Christ , God does not see that we are christian , Baptist , ect ... He see that we love him or not. If we go to church and that we do nothing after and at the church , then the Baptist , Catholic or Adventist ect.. are not important in God Eyes.

So for Jesus it's the same thing for me , Jesus had the gave is Lord to us and to the Lord like we are trying to do. So for me the denomination thing are not important , it's the bible who his important , not the name , but yes we are the body of the church , but I know that the name should not be important because those name were made by the men so for Me I don't care about it. I go to church but after that I have 6 day to read my bible and in those 6 days my denomination doesn't count.


I know that it wasn't your real subject but I just wanted to elaborate on that to make you understand more by giving an example of real life

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

I didn't read all the post , I have just read the first one so sorry if i'm not in the context of the last page.

For the question.

Jesus was a Jew but I Don't like to say it that way so just read this thing and if you don't agree than just reply

Are we Christian , Baptist , Catholic , NO ... We are Believers of God and Christ , God does not see that we are christian , Baptist , ect ... He see that we love him or not. If we go to church and that we do nothing after and at the church , then the Baptist , Catholic or Adventist ect.. are not important in God Eyes.

So for Jesus it's the same thing for me , Jesus had the gave is Lord to us and to the Lord like we are trying to do. So for me the denomination thing are not important , it's the bible who his important , not the name , but yes we are the body of the church , but I know that the name should not be important because those name were made by the men so for Me I don't care about it. I go to church but after that I have 6 day to read my bible and in those 6 days my denomination doesn't count.


I know that it wasn't your real subject but I just wanted to elaborate on that to make you understand more by giving an example of real life

We must check everything someone is teaching or else we will be swayed by every wind and doctrine. If we just sit back and just learn what some Preacher, teacher or whom ever without reading and praying ourselves, then how are we to know if the Preacher is feeding us Millk or Meat? Milk is for babies, yet if you are grown in YHWH then you are ready for Meat.

Paul's Letter to the Colossians
4:2 Continue steadfastly in prayer, watching therein with thanksgiving; 3 praying together for us also, that God may open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Messiah, for which I am also in bonds; 4 that I may reveal it as I ought to speak. 5 Walk in wisdom toward those who are outside, redeeming the time. 6 Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.

Paul's Second Letter to Timothy
4:1 I solemnly urge you therefore before God and the Lord Yeshua the Messiah, who will judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his Kingdom: 2 proclaim the word; be urgent in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with all patience and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but, having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts; 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside to fables. 5 But you be sober in all things, suffer hardship, do the work of an evangelist, and fulfill your ministry.

Paul's First Letter to Timothy
4:1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 through the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron; 3 forbidding marriage and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with thanksgiving. 5 For it is sanctified through the word of God and prayer. 6 If you instruct the brothers of these things, you will be a good servant of Messiah Yeshua, nourished in the words of the faith, and of the good doctrine which you have followed. 7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables. Exercise yourself toward godliness. 8 For bodily exercise has some value, but godliness has value in all things, having the promise of the life which is now, and of that which is to come. 9 This saying is faithful and worthy of all acceptance. 10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we have set our trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 11 Command and teach these things.

So in a sense a particular name of Faith does matter. Yet which one is what you must find if you wish to fellowship with like-minded Followers of YHWH. Of course Yeshua is Our LORD who YHWH has given all authority on Earth and in Heaven. Of course we can't seperate ourselves from the world and must live in it. We aren't of the World and so now that I think of it, maybe you should stay in the congregation you are in even if it is teaching false doctrines, so as to be a witness to those who are lost in it. But be sure when you start showing the High Council of that Church their faults they will more then likely KICK you OUT. But then again be careful you don't get caught up in the false doctrines what ever church you might be in or for that matter Assembly. For believe me there are many false doctrines in this world. Remember Satan has used Lies with Truth to Eve and he has been doing that since then to MAN.

May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,

Tag

 

[CrossMovement]

We must check everything someone is teaching or else we will be swayed by every wind and doctrine. If we just sit back and just learn what some Preacher, teacher or whom ever without reading and praying ourselves, then how are we to know if the Preacher is feeding us Millk or Meat? Milk is for babies, yet if you are grown in YHWH then you are ready for Meat.

Paul's Letter to the Colossians
4:2 Continue steadfastly in prayer, watching therein with thanksgiving; 3 praying together for us also, that God may open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Messiah, for which I am also in bonds; 4 that I may reveal it as I ought to speak. 5 Walk in wisdom toward those who are outside, redeeming the time. 6 Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.
Paul's Second Letter to Timothy
4:1 I solemnly urge you therefore before God and the Lord Yeshua the Messiah, who will judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his Kingdom: 2 proclaim the word; be urgent in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with all patience and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but, having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts; 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside to fables. 5 But you be sober in all things, suffer hardship, do the work of an evangelist, and fulfill your ministry.
Paul's First Letter to Timothy
4:1 But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 through the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron; 3 forbidding marriage and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with thanksgiving. 5 For it is sanctified through the word of God and prayer. 6 If you instruct the brothers of these things, you will be a good servant of Messiah Yeshua, nourished in the words of the faith, and of the good doctrine which you have followed. 7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables. Exercise yourself toward godliness. 8 For bodily exercise has some value, but godliness has value in all things, having the promise of the life which is now, and of that which is to come. 9 This saying is faithful and worthy of all acceptance. 10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we have set our trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 11 Command and teach these things.

So in a sense a particular name of Faith does matter. Yet which one is what you must find if you wish to fellowship with like-minded Followers of YHWH. Of course Yeshua is Our LORD who YHWH has given all authority on Earth and in Heaven. Of course we can't seperate ourselves from the world and must live in it. We aren't of the World and so now that I think of it, maybe you should stay in the congregation you are in even if it is teaching false doctrines, so as to be a witness to those who are lost in it. But be sure when you start showing the High Council of that Church their faults they will more then likely KICK you OUT. But then again be careful you don't get caught up in the false doctrines what ever church you might be in or for that matter Assembly. For believe me there are many false doctrines in this world. Remember Satan has used Lies with Truth to Eve and he has been doing that since then to MAN.

May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,

Tag

Did I said that I believe in all the preacher said ?? No , I said that I am reading my bible too so If I found that if what they are teaching is false , then I'll changed my way of thinking , but for now , the bible is right about that. And I am praying too so don't "worry" because I Don't go to any false doctrine. The name of the religion is not important for me and the so called "Status" of the preacher is not something that I care. I am a follower of the bible teaching and Christ , I am not a Denomination. God did not say to us that we are Catholic , Adventist ect ... I'm not ignorant

I know the false prophets thing and all that

To finish , I'll like to say to you that I don't eat pork and I do my Sabbath on Saturday and not on Sunday , so make your conclusion with that , cuz I don't know what "denomination" you are but you seem a Judaism.

I think that I am heading in the right direction for my young age. I've been a Catholic first and I've decided personnally to change (Personnal decision). Maybe I am heading in the wrong way , i'm still young and I don't have the perfect true. But at least i'm trying to seek the truht.

I don't live with the tradition of the men and Men have changed what the bible and God say in their own. So do we want to follow the tradition of the men of God ?? That's a question that I have ask to myself in the beginning of my changes of view.

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

CrossMovement,
Did I say you did? No. I was adding a statement upon your statement of a Name of a Faith doesn't matter when in fact it does. Many say they believe in God. But which one is the question.
I am happy that you know the false prophets thing and all that. The post I made is for those who don't know or are asleep.

I try not to be ignorant as well

Shalom,
Tag

 

[CrossMovement]

CrossMovement,
Did I say you did? No. I was adding a statement upon your statement of a Name of a Faith doesn't matter when in fact it does. Many say they believe in God. But which one is the question.
I am happy that you know the false prophets thing and all that. The post I made is for those who don't know or are asleep.

I try not to be ignorant as well

Shalom,
Tag

Ok really sorry , I didn't well understand you at first I though that if you have took my post that you were directlty saying your things to me . I made a mistake héhé





Can you tell me if am wrong with that question. At that time that the Sabbath have been changed , Sunday was for the God of the Sun , Monday was for the God of the Moon and ect So they were worshipping the Sun if they were doing the Sabbath Sunday right ? Also at the Encyclopédia of Catholic at page 806 i think , they clearly stated that the delibery changed the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday , So this is a tradition. Sunday is a tradition , God did not say to change Saturday to Sunday , No the men did it. God is not a God who changed is opinion and Sabbath as been created for God and By god it has not been created for the Men.

Am I right ?? Reply to me if you want to add your thought





Question :Tradition of the men or the bible ? Hum , I'll take the bible over the tradition of the men

 

[Composer]

To Wills,

You are equating the principles of carnal man with that of God's Holy angels.

God appointed His own Holy angels to represent Him for eternity, if any rebel then that god is a fallible fool who is incapable of even judging his alleged own angels worthy.

What a fallible god you have devised?

 

[Composer]

To Magnum 357

I see that you give your wild opinion but fail to support it with a single Scriptural reference.

Just stating - "I present the whole Bible" is no legitimate answer, for clearly you currently have little correct understanding of its content.

For example, I believe I have asked others to present some Scriptures that state that your alleged fallen angels create evil, when the Scriptures state that it is God who creates ALL evil.

I am still__ waiting.

I also present a Post by a leading Trinitarian -

THE TRINITY ADMITTED NOT TO BE A SCRIPTURAL DOCTRINE

In view of these repeated and consistent statements and inferences of the subordinate position of Jesus one can understand why most Trinitarians admit that their doctrine of God cannot be found in the Bible. The late Dr. W R Matthews, Dean of St Paul's Cathedral, wrote:

"It must be admitted by everyone who has the rudiments of an historical sense that the doctrine of the Trinity, as a doctrine, formed no part of the original message. St Paul knew it not, and would have been unable to understand the meaning of the terms used in the theological formula on which the Church ultimately agreed". (27)

Or more recently:

"In order to understand the doctrine of the Trinity it is necessary to understand that the doctrine is a development, and why it developed. ... It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament". (28)

27. "God in Christian Thought and Experience", p.180

28. A & R Hanson: "Reasonable Belief, A survey of the Christian Faith, p.171-173,1980,

So you can see, that a leading Trinitarian Scholar admits that there is NO legitimate Scriptural evidence to support the man made - development of the trinity.

So you are firing all blanks after all.

 

[TWells]

Hey Composer

To Magnum 357

For example, I believe I have asked others to present some Scriptures that state that your alleged fallen angels create evil, when the Scriptures state that it is God who creates ALL evil.

I am still__ waiting.

I wouldnt agree with Magnum on the point of the angels as evil or sin comes from man willfull choosing not to do the will of God. Could you also give scripture for your assertion that God is responsible for evil? Or did you mean something else?

I also present a Post by a leading Trinitarian -

THE TRINITY ADMITTED NOT TO BE A SCRIPTURAL DOCTRINE

In view of these repeated and consistent statements and inferences of the subordinate position of Jesus one can understand why most Trinitarians admit that their doctrine of God cannot be found in the Bible. The late Dr. W R Matthews, Dean of St Paul's Cathedral, wrote:

"It must be admitted by everyone who has the rudiments of an historical sense that the doctrine of the Trinity, as a doctrine, formed no part of the original message. St Paul knew it not, and would have been unable to understand the meaning of the terms used in the theological formula on which the Church ultimately agreed". (27)

Or more recently:

"In order to understand the doctrine of the Trinity it is necessary to understand that the doctrine is a development, and why it developed. ... It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament". (28)

27. "God in Christian Thought and Experience", p.180

28. A & R Hanson: "Reasonable Belief, A survey of the Christian Faith, p.171-173,1980,

So you can see, that a leading Trinitarian Scholar admits that there is NO legitimate Scriptural evidence to support the man made - development of the trinity.

So you are firing all blanks after all.

Composer you posted this earlier and I still dont understand why it makes any difference?? The fact that you found 1 theologian that doesnt agree with the Trinity you believe its a argument that furthers your case?? How about if I started posting articles by people who DO believe in the Trinity would that mean to you that your wrong?? Im sorry but its pointless to post those.

You also never responded to my post earlier of Jesus's claim and the Apostles claim that He was the divine personification of Gods Wisdom found in OT and Intertestamental literature. I stated earlier:

In the Gospels we find that Jesus viewed Himself as assuming the role of Wisdom and thus divinity. Making obvious allusions to and quoting Wisdom literature (Matthew 11:29-30 - Sirach 6:19-31 51:26)

NT writers made it obvious they were claiming Jesus to be the divine personified Wisdom of God: John 1:1-Wisdom of Solomon 9:9, John 1:4-Proverbs 8:35, John 1:11-1 Enoch 42:2, John 1:14-Sirach 24:8, John 6:27-Wisdom of Solomon 16:26, John 14:15-Wisdom of Solomon 16:18)

JP Holding notes more:
The Word was in the beginning (John 1:1)
Wisdom was in the beginning (Prov. 8:22-23, Sir. 1:4, Wis. 9:9)
The Word was with God (John 1:1)
Wisdom was with God (Prov. 8:30, Sir. 1:1, Wis. 9:4)
The Word was cocreator (John 1:1-3)
Wisdom was cocreator (Prov. 3:19, 8:25; Is. 7:21, 9:1-2)
The Word provides light (John 1:4, 9)
Wisdom provides light (Prov. 8:22, Wis. 7:26, 8:13; Sir. 4:12)
Word as light in contrast to darkness (John 1:5)
Wisdom as light in contrast to darkness (Wis. 7:29-30)
The Word was in the world (John 1:10)
Wisdom was in the world (Wis. 8:1, Sir. 24:6)
The Word was rejected by its own (John 1:11)
Wisdom was rejected by its own (Sir. 15:7)
The Word was received by the faithful (John 1:12)
Wisdom was received by the faithful (Wis. 7:27)
Christ is the bread of life (John 6:35)
Wisdom is the bread or substance of life (Prov. 9:5, Sir. 15:3, 24:21, 29:21; Wis. 11:4)
Christ is the light of the world (John 8:12)
Wisdom is light (Wis. 7:26-30, 18:3-4)
Christ is the door of the sheep and the good shepherd (John 10:7, 11, 14)
Wisdom is the door and the good shepherd (Prov. 8:34-5, Wis. 7:25-7, 8:2-16; Sir. 24:19-22)
Christ is life (John 11:25)
Wisdom brings life (Prov. 3:16, 8:35, 9:11; Wis. 8:13)
Christ is the way to truth (John 14:6)
Wisdom is the way (Prov. 3:17, 8:32-34; Sir. 6:26)
More in Pauls letters: 1 Corinthians 1:24, 30 Jesus is "the power of God and the wisdom of God."

Wisdom 1:4: Wisdom existed before all things....
1 Corinthians 2:7: ...wisdom that God predestined before the ages....
Wisdom 1:6: To whom has the root of wisdom been revealed?
1 Corinthians 2:10: God revealed these things to us....
Wisdom 1:10: ...he has given [wisdom] to those who love him.
1 Corinthians 2:9: ...which God has prepared for those who love him.
Wisdom 1:15: [Wisdom] has built an eternal foundation among men....
1 Corinthians 3:10: ...as a wise architect I laid down a foundation....
Wisdom 2:5: Gold is tested in the fire....
1 Corinthians 3:12-13: And if any man builds upon the foundation with gold or silver or precious stones..., it is to be revealed in fire.

Jesus also claimed to be the "Son of Man" a divine figure from Daniel 7 that would share God's throne. There is also the evidence of Jesus claiming the divine name of "I AM, John chapter 1 etc. There are many more individual evidences if you would like to disscuss them.

By the way, so we can understand where your coming from more, are you a Jehovah's Witness, if not is there a label you fall under?

In Christ,
Travis

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Ok really sorry , I didn't well understand you at first I though that if you have took my post that you were directlty saying your things to me . I made a mistake héhé

I worry about causing others to stumble and therefore try to have a basis in scripture or even history to support what I am saying but that doesn't always happen. The support that is, so we have to be careful in what and how we say things to people or we might cause them to stumble. If they stumble, I hope they stumble to the false doctrine they learned and come to the knowledge of Truth that only the Ruach(Spirit of YHWH) can give and I hope the Ruach is speaking through my words.

Can you tell me if am wrong with that question. At that time that the Sabbath have been changed , Sunday was for the God of the Sun , Monday was for the God of the Moon and ect So they were worshipping the Sun if they were doing the Sabbath Sunday right ? Also at the Encyclopédia of Catholic at page 806 i think , they clearly stated that the delibery changed the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday , So this is a tradition. Sunday is a tradition , God did not say to change Saturday to Sunday , No the men did it. God is not a God who changed is opinion and Sabbath as been created for God and By god it has not been created for the Men.

Am I right ?? Reply to me if you want to add your thought

Question :Tradition of the men or the bible ? Hum , I'll take the bible over the tradition of the men

I believe what you say is correct in that the Emporer of Rome outlawed the Sabbath and Circumcision. That is true of the days of the week. If the Emporer did actually have Faith in Yeshua then why didn't he keep the days of the week with the names to worship gods on those days? And why did he throw out the Hebrewness of the Faith? Even Yeshua said "Salvation came from the Jews" Yes, the Traditions of MAN has over-ridden what YHWH and Yeshua have instructed.

May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,

Tag

 

[Joseph E.]

Jesus is the Lord from GLORY!

 

[Composer]

Thanks TWells / Travis for your comments, you Posted: -

Hey Composer
Originally Posted By: Composer

To Magnum 357

For example, I believe I have asked others to present some Scriptures that state that your alleged fallen angels create evil, when the Scriptures state that it is God who creates ALL evil.

I am still__ waiting.


Your response: I wouldnt agree with Magnum on the point of the angels as evil or sin comes from man willfull choosing not to do the will of God.

Composer responds: I do not understand this?

You wrote: Could you also give scripture for your assertion that God is responsible for evil? Or did you mean something else?

Composer responds: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [ things ] (Isaiah 45: 7) KJS


Composer posted: -

I also present a Post by a leading Trinitarian -

THE TRINITY ADMITTED NOT TO BE A SCRIPTURAL DOCTRINE

In view of these repeated and consistent statements and inferences of the subordinate position of Jesus one can understand why most Trinitarians admit that their doctrine of God cannot be found in the Bible. The late Dr. W R Matthews, Dean of St Paul's Cathedral, wrote:

"It must be admitted by everyone who has the rudiments of an historical sense that the doctrine of the Trinity, as a doctrine, formed no part of the original message. St Paul knew it not, and would have been unable to understand the meaning of the terms used in the theological formula on which the Church ultimately agreed". (27)

Or more recently:

"In order to understand the doctrine of the Trinity it is necessary to understand that the doctrine is a development, and why it developed. ... It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament". (28)

27. "God in Christian Thought and Experience", p.180

28. A & R Hanson: "Reasonable Belief, A survey of the Christian Faith, p.171-173,1980,

So you can see, that a leading Trinitarian Scholar admits that there is NO legitimate Scriptural evidence to support the man made - development of the trinity.

So you are firing all blanks after all.


TWells wrote: Composer you posted this earlier and I still dont understand why it makes any difference?? The fact that you found 1 theologian that doesnt agree with the Trinity you believe its a argument that furthers your case?? How about if I started posting articles by people who DO believe in the Trinity would that mean to you that your wrong?? Im sorry but its pointless to post those.

Composer responds: The whole point is that there is a major division even amongst trinitarians themselves and many scholars admit that the trinity was a development and Jesus and the Disciples did NOT even comprehend such a concept, let alone teach it?

TWells wrote: You also never responded to my post earlier of Jesus's claim and the Apostles claim that He was the divine personification of Gods Wisdom found in OT and Intertestamental literature. I stated earlier:
In the Gospels we find that Jesus viewed Himself as assuming the role of Wisdom and thus divinity. Making obvious allusions to and quoting Wisdom literature (Matthew 11:29-30 - Sirach 6:19-31 51:26)

NT writers made it obvious they were claiming Jesus to be the divine personified Wisdom of God: John 1:1-Wisdom of Solomon 9:9, John 1:4-Proverbs 8:35, John 1:11-1 Enoch 42:2, John 1:14-Sirach 24:8, John 6:27-Wisdom of Solomon 16:26, John 14:15-Wisdom of Solomon 16:18)

JP Holding notes more:
The Word was in the beginning (John 1:1)
Wisdom was in the beginning (Prov. 8:22-23, Sir. 1:4, Wis. 9:9)
The Word was with God (John 1:1)
Wisdom was with God (Prov. 8:30, Sir. 1:1, Wis. 9:4)
The Word was cocreator (John 1:1-3)
Wisdom was cocreator (Prov. 3:19, 8:25; Is. 7:21, 9:1-2)
The Word provides light (John 1:4, 9)
Wisdom provides light (Prov. 8:22, Wis. 7:26, 8:13; Sir. 4:12)
Word as light in contrast to darkness (John 1:5)
Wisdom as light in contrast to darkness (Wis. 7:29-30)
The Word was in the world (John 1:10)
Wisdom was in the world (Wis. 8:1, Sir. 24:6)
The Word was rejected by its own (John 1:11)
Wisdom was rejected by its own (Sir. 15:7)
The Word was received by the faithful (John 1:12)
Wisdom was received by the faithful (Wis. 7:27)
Christ is the bread of life (John 6:35)
Wisdom is the bread or substance of life (Prov. 9:5, Sir. 15:3, 24:21, 29:21; Wis. 11:4)
Christ is the light of the world (John 8:12)
Wisdom is light (Wis. 7:26-30, 18:3-4)
Christ is the door of the sheep and the good shepherd (John 10:7, 11, 14)
Wisdom is the door and the good shepherd (Prov. 8:34-5, Wis. 7:25-7, 8:2-16; Sir. 24:19-22)
Christ is life (John 11:25)
Wisdom brings life (Prov. 3:16, 8:35, 9:11; Wis. 8:13)
Christ is the way to truth (John 14:6)
Wisdom is the way (Prov. 3:17, 8:32-34; Sir. 6:26)
More in Pauls letters: 1 Corinthians 1:24, 30 Jesus is "the power of God and the wisdom of God."

Wisdom 1:4: Wisdom existed before all things....
1 Corinthians 2:7: ...wisdom that God predestined before the ages....
Wisdom 1:6: To whom has the root of wisdom been revealed?
1 Corinthians 2:10: God revealed these things to us....
Wisdom 1:10: ...he has given [wisdom] to those who love him.
1 Corinthians 2:9: ...which God has prepared for those who love him.
Wisdom 1:15: [Wisdom] has built an eternal foundation among men....
1 Corinthians 3:10: ...as a wise architect I laid down a foundation....
Wisdom 2:5: Gold is tested in the fire....
1 Corinthians 3:12-13: And if any man builds upon the foundation with gold or silver or precious stones..., it is to be revealed in fire.


Jesus also claimed to be the "Son of Man" a divine figure from Daniel 7 that would share God's throne. There is also the evidence of Jesus claiming the divine name of "I AM, John chapter 1 etc. There are many more individual evidences if you would like to discuss them.

I would be most happy to discuss all of them.
Could you please be more specific each time and also give your source. As you may know, I use the King James Standard Version / KJV/ KJS and the Original Diaglott NT Greek Text.

Let us look at the following for a start: -

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am . (John 8:58) KJS

Christ's reference to Abraham is to affirm his (Christ's) pre-eminence, not pre-existence.

The Jews had claimed that Abraham was their father (vs. 39) and so Christ establishes his pre-eminence in the divine purpose by stating that before Abraham was, "I am". He did not say "before Abraham was, I was" as it is frequently misread. But the Jews, like modern-day trinitarians, misunderstood Jesus. He was not claiming to be literally older in years than Abraham. This is indicated by his prior remark: "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." (vs. 56). Abraham, to whom the gospel was preached (Gal. 3:8), "saw" the day of Christ through the eye of faith. Christ was "foreordained before the foundation of the world, but manifest in these last times". (1 Peter 1:20). He was foreordained in the divine purpose, but not formed. Similarly in the divine purpose he was the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8) but literally he was not slain until his crucifixion in the time of Pilate.

There is no proof that Christ alludes to the divine name (imperfectly rendered by the A.V., "I am that I am"). Jesus simply uses the present tense of the verb "to be". Even if this verse were intended to be read as an allusion to the divine name, this is not proof that Christ was claiming to be "Very God". The divine name declared, "I will be what I will be". (Exod. 3:14 R.S.V. mg.). The name was a prophetic declaration of the divine purpose. Jesus Christ was "God manifest in the flesh" (1 Tim. 3:16), "the word" (Greek: logos) "made flesh." (John 1:14). As such, he was the expression of the divine character, "full of grace and truth" (John 1:14 cf. Exod. 33:19), and became the "firstborn among many brethren". (Rom. 8:29). Christ was the result of the word made flesh, not the originator of the divine plan. As he himself said, "I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42). (Extract from Wrested Scriptures by Ron Abel)


TWells wrote: By the way, so we can understand where your coming from more, are you a Jehovah's Witness, if not is there a label you fall under?

In Christ,
Travis

Composer responds: J. W's believe in fallen heavenly angels, I do not. I am NOT a J. W. nor anything else, I belong to NO man made Organisation.

If you really must type cast me, the closest thing would be the Christadelphians but I have some problems with them also, mainly in their interpretations of more Human problems such as Marriage & Divorce issues.

I study mainly on my own and run a small Bible class.

 

[Ben johnson]

Composer responds: Of course the devil is merely a word that describes an ungodly type of person.

REALLY! Let's see --- there was a man who had DEMONS; several of them, for the lead demon said: "LEGION; for we are MANY". Jesus cast the demons into the swine, and the swine ran into the sea. Mk5:12 And it speaks of "demon-possessed-people" in Matt8:16,9:32. In Acts 19:15-16 an evil spirit did not recognize the Jews' authority and pounced on them; but you say "It's just all ATTITUDE, not REAL SPIRIT; those pigs were not REALLY controlled by demons, the MAN was just mentally deranged, the PIGS were coincidental and there's no such thing as real demons". I seeee....

Composer responds: Now I thought that this alleged satan / devil being was only interested in our alleged "souls"?

Put YOURSELF in the devil's place --- do you think you have NO NEED for material things? With what will you tempt mankind towards evil, unless you have wealth? If YOU were commanding an "anti-God-campaign", I submit that you would pursue GREAT wealth. Remember, the Bible speaks of a ONE-WORLD-GOVERNMENT; it is therefore to your advantage to control the greatest wealths in the world --- that you may corrupt entire governments and pursue the "antichrist-ruling-the-world".

Composer wrote: The temptations can NOT be in the city and in the wilderness, for that is a contradiction.

It is only a contradiction in YOUR eyes, because you don't believe in BAD-ANGELS who can FLY...

 

[Ben johnson]

Are we ...Baptist , Catholic , NO ... We are Believers of God and Christ , God does not see that we are ...Baptist , ect ... He sees that we love him or not. If we go to church and then we do nothing after and at the church , then being Baptist , Catholic or Adventist ect.. are not important in God Eyes.

Very good!

Composer responds: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [ things ] (Isaiah 45: 7) KJS

Hmmm; when we look up the word for "evil", we see "ra' "; which also means "adversity, distress, trouble". IOW, "calamity". Create EVIL? God has a NATURE; and by His perfect nature, He CANNOT[/] do evil. This is why Paul writes in 1Tim1, "God DOES NOT tempt anyone"...

You know, Composer, to discuss theology on a Christian message board, it is useful (essential really) to have a common foundation; but we don't, do we? You do not believe Jesus is God, you do not believe even in demons and the devil; so to discuss passages like Eph6 ("we battle not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places" --- you deny that there ARE "spiritual forces of wickedness in heavenly places"!

I study mainly on my own and run a small Bible class.

Now THAT is an interesting concept! One who teaches from the Bible, but who rejects the fundamental things OF the Bible! I wonder what kind of weak unlearned people would follow such a leader? But, then, I guess there are many leaders of diverse and strange philosophies. And many followers.

It is indeed a battle we are in, a battle for the souls of mankind...

 

[Composer]

Composer responds: Of course the devil is merely a word that describes an ungodly type of person.


BJ wrote: REALLY! Let's see --- there was a man who had DEMONS; several of them, for the lead demon said: "LEGION; for we are MANY". Jesus cast the demons into the swine, and the swine ran into the sea.

Composer responds: Oh and please tell me what point it was to put demons into swine, do demons drown?

The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23) not a reprieve to go and possess others all over again. Until you or any others can demonstrate that heavenly angels fall and also become demons you have nothing except a fanciful story to tell.

BJ wrote: Mk5:12 And it speaks of "demon-possessed-people" in Matt8:16,9:32. In Acts 19:15-16 an evil spirit did not recognize the Jews' authority and pounced on them; but you say "It's just all ATTITUDE, not REAL SPIRIT; those pigs were not REALLY controlled by demons, the MAN was just mentally deranged, the PIGS were coincidental and there's no such thing as real demons". I seeee....

Composer responds: That's right, for many believed on demons / daimonion. Including some disciples (Luke 24:37) KJS

Demons means mini gods / inferior gods both GOOD and BAD. Oh I upset one of the gods so it has sent me a disease or oh! the gods are pleased with me, so I won Lotto etc. etc. The Sadducees DID NOT believe in demons or demon possession.

Composer responds: Now I thought that this alleged satan / devil being was only interested in our alleged "souls"?

BJ wrote: Put YOURSELF in the devil's place --- do you think you have NO NEED for material things? With what will you tempt mankind towards evil, unless you have wealth? If YOU were commanding an "anti-God-campaign", I submit that you would pursue GREAT wealth. Remember, the Bible speaks of a ONE-WORLD-GOVERNMENT; it is therefore to your advantage to control the greatest wealths in the world --- that you may corrupt entire governments and pursue the "antichrist-ruling-the-world".

Composer responds: Well if that were so, when this alleged satan promised everything to Jesus there would be nothing left to tempt others with would there?

You do come out with such stories?


Composer wrote: The temptations can NOT be in the city and in the wilderness, for that is a contradiction.


It is only a contradiction in YOUR eyes, because you don't believe in BAD-ANGELS who can FLY...

Composer responds: I am STILL______ waiting for your alleged evidence that such things actually exist except in your wild imagination?

 

[Composer]

Composer responds: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [ things ] (Isaiah 45: 7) KJS


BJ wrote: Hmmm; when we look up the word for "evil", we see "ra' "; which also means "adversity, distress, trouble". IOW, "calamity". Create EVIL? God has a NATURE; and by His perfect nature, He CANNOT[/] do evil. This is why Paul writes in 1Tim1, "God DOES NOT tempt anyone"...

Composer responds: The evil that God creates is the repercussions / consequences of our disobedient actions.

BJ wrote: You know, Composer, to discuss theology on a Christian message board, it is useful (essential really) to have a common foundation; but we don't, do we?

Composer responds: I see, so when Jesus came with his teachings people like you would have rejected him outright because he was different and not a Pagan. The similarities with your attitude is exactly the same. They were wrong and Jesus came to correct them.


BJ wrote: You do not believe Jesus is God, you do not believe even in demons and the devil; so to discuss passages like Eph6 ("we battle not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places" --- you deny that there ARE "spiritual forces of wickedness in heavenly places"!

Composer responds: Not at all. The spiritual wickedness in HEAVENLY PLACES is talking about the "mindset / ungodly / corrupt attitudes of those mortals in the Political / Religious High Places of authority on earth, who follow their greed and carnal lusts whilst "pretending" to be men of God.

Just like the Pharisees of old.

The following notes from the Original Greek explains further -

HEAVEN. The Jews spoke of three heavens ; — (1.) The atmosphere, or lower region of the air, in which birds and vapors fly. Job xxxv. 11 ; Matt. xvi. 1. (2.) The expanse above, in which the stars are disposed, and which they seem to have thought was a solid concave. Matt. xxiv. 29. (3.) The habitation of God, where his power and glory are more immediately and fully manifested. Heaven is always the symbol of government ; the higher places in the political universe. The "kingdom of heaven," is the same as the kingdom of God,

There is heaven, and the Kingdom of Heaven. A HUGE difference.

So my point is proven beyond doubt.


Composer responds: I study mainly on my own and run a small Bible class.

BJ wrote: Now THAT is an interesting concept! One who teaches from the Bible, but who rejects the fundamental things OF the Bible! I wonder what kind of weak unlearned people would follow such a leader? But, then, I guess there are many leaders of diverse and strange philosophies. And many followers.

Composer responds: Weak and unlearned people you say? The contrary is the Truth.

I am not a leader, God is the leader. I reject nothing of the Bible, it is false teachers for example that suggest that the serpent was not soley responsible when the Bible states that it was, so people like YOU are rejecting the Bible from the very beginning of it.

You say, oh it was NOT the Serpent like the Bible states, the Bible is confused you claim, it was really a fallen heavenly angel that is NOT EVEN MENTIONED in the narrative that was allegedly responsible. (If you intend using the Book of Revelation as a defence then go for it, it will not help you. We shall address that depending on your response?)

 

[Ben johnson]

Composer responds: Oh and please tell me what point it was to put demons into swine, do demons drown?

The purpose? I don't know; but I related the story because it shows that something happened to the pigs. It shows Jesus talking to an intelligence that claimed to be OTHER than the man; it shows the intelligence claiming to be MANY. This against your idea of "THERE ARE NO DEMONS".

The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23) not a reprieve to go and possess others all over again.

This was written to HUMANS; it presents two alternatives, "wages-sin-death", and "God's-gift-eternal-life-through-Jesus". What choice does a fallen angel have? Can he be redeemed through Jesus? No such offer was made; he has already been judged, and is beyond salvation. He WILL receive death, when the devil and the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the LAKE, and the lake IS called the "second death" (Rev20). But angels do not die physically, for they are not physically alive (not flesh and blood --- they are spirits). I do not know why demons have been released upon the Earth; God has His reasons. But I do know they must operate within boundaries. Not every demon still runs free --- there are some bound in a place called "the Pit". Ever hear of the Pit, Composer?

Until you or any others can demonstrate that heavenly angels fall and also become demons you have nothing except a fanciful story to tell.

"And the seventy returned with joy, saying 'Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.' And Jesus said to them, 'I saw satan fall from heaven like lightning; behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you. Nevertheless, do not rejoice that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice instead that your names are written in Heaven." Lk10?17-20 So the seventy had authority over demons (that you don't believe in), and Jesus saw satan fall (which you also don't believe in). Tell me, Composer--- what is the standard with which you read the Bible, that decides which you ACCEPT and which parts you REJECT?

Composer responds: Well if that were so, when this alleged satan promised everything to Jesus there would be nothing left to tempt others with would there?

Do you think satan showed Jesus ALL of his holding? Not likely. And too --- if Jesus HAD worshipped satan, then satan would have owned Jesus --- and thus still claimed ownership over possessions given to Jesus...

You do come out with such stories?

Well, actually, not I; I simply read themin the Bible...

The temptations can NOT be in the city and in the wilderness, for that is a contradiction.

"The devil took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on a pinnacle of the temple..." "The devil took Him to a very high mountain..." I ask you again, Composer --- what is the mechanism that allows you to REJECT certain passages of the Bible? What is the standard, how do you measure or weigh what is "right" and what is "myth"?

I see, so when Jesus came with his teachings people like you would have rejected him outright because he was different and not a Pagan. The similarities with your attitude is exactly the same. They were wrong and Jesus came to correct them.

Jesus came with the expectation that they would RECEIVE Him, recognize His GODHOOD. They already understood that spirits were real. Ya' know, those that Jesus ministered to had MORE of a foundation than you do???

Not at all. The spiritual wickedness in HEAVENLY PLACES is talking about the "mindset / ungodly / corrupt attitudes of those mortals in the Political / Religious High Places of authority on earth, who follow their greed and carnal lusts whilst "pretending" to be men of God.

I see. So Jesus cast NOTHING into the pigs (and they ran into the water ...BECAUSSSSE... ???) Jesus did NOT see satan fall like lightning from Heaven (Jesus was LYING? Exagerating? NO, exageration means SOMETHING happened and He overstates; you say "it never HAPPENED", so it HAD to be a lie...)

So my point is proven beyond doubt.

Hmmm; but I do still doubt your point; (although I think I might have a hat that will fit you...) (in the spirit of good-natured-teasing)

I am not a leader, God is the leader. I reject nothing of the Bible,

Then I will be very interested in hearing how you respond to the Scriptures I posted.... (There are more, too...)

 

[TScott]

You know, Composer, to discuss theology on a Christian message board, it is useful (essential really) to have a common foundation; but we don't, do we?

....It is indeed a battle we are in, a battle for the souls of mankind...

I think it would be nice if this thread could somehow get back on topic without some kind of devine intervention.

The religion of Yeshua ben Yusef is the subject of this thread. Not Theology. That is why Theology is only discussed in Christian only section of these here parts.