Problem w/The Pope...

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SSPX

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Originally posted by DEVIL STOMPER777
Yet Ive got a problem w/The Popes ecumenical endevours(esp today at Assis):Why would The Successor to Peter hold prayer meetings w/Moslems,Shintoists,Buddhists & other pagan leaders? There is no evangelization going on from his side,no talk of Christ or the Faith...just a PC common denominator god. I know I cant be the only Catholic out here who feels this isnt right!

No, you're not the only Catholic who feels that way. The Pope's ecumenical endeavors are an offense against the first commandment and only serve to weaken the Church's missionary spirit and destroy the faith of millions. The Freemasons always wanted the Church to proclaim religious liberty and ecumenism; they finally got their wish at Vatican II.

Here's what Bishop Fellay, superior general of the SSPX had to say:

Pope John Paul II is inviting all the major religions of the world, the Muslims in particular, to a great prayer meeting in Assisi, in the same spirit of the first meeting for peace that took place there in 1986. We are deeply distressed by this event and condemn it totally.

Because it offends God in His first commandment.

Because it denies the unity of the Church and Her mission of saving souls.

Because it can only lead the faithful into confusion and indifferentism.

Because it deceives the unfortunate unfaithful and members of other religions.

The problem does not lie in the object of the prayers -peace. To pray for peace and to seek to establish and strengthen peace between peoples and nations is a good thing in itself. The Catholic liturgy is full of beautiful prayers for peace. We pray these prayers with all our hearts. Moreover, given the fact that the angels announced, on the birth of Our Lord Jesus Christ, peace on earth to men of good will, it is totally fitting to ask the faithful to implore the One True God to grant us a gift of such great value at this stage in the year.

The reason for our indignation lies in the confusion, scandal and blasphemy that result from an invitation from the Vicar of Our Lord Jesus Christ, sole mediator between God and man, to other religions to come to Assisi to pray for peace.

It has been stated that to avoid any syncretism, those attending will not be praying "together", but that each religion will pray in separate rooms in the Franciscan convent at Assisi.. Cardinal Kasper went so far –and rightly so –to affirm that "Christians cannot pray with members of other religions." (Osservatore Romano, January 5, 2002). However, this affirmation is not enough to dissipate the dreadful uneasiness and confusion caused by the event; it cannot be denied that all kinds of religions will be praying "each in their own camp" to obtain from these prayers said at the same time, but in different locations, the same result: peace. The fact that all have been invited to pray, at the same time and in the same town, for the same intention is clear proof of the desire for unity. On the other hand, the fact that the prayers will be offered in separate locations betrays the contradictory and impossible nature of the project. In reality, the distinction is false, even though, thanks be to God, it avoids a direct communicatio in sacris. However, the syncretic nature of the operation is obvious to all. Recourse to deceitful words has made it possible to deny the painfully obvious reality. But words do not mean anything any more: we will be going to Assisi, not to pray together, we are going there together to pray … no syncretism, etc.

The establishment of civil (political) peace between nations by congresses, discussions, diplomacy, with the intervention of influential persons of different nations and religions, is one thing. It is another to claim to obtain the gift of peace from God by the prayer of all (false) religions. Such an initiative is completely inconsistent with the Catholic faith and goes against the first commandment.

This is not a question of individual prayer, that of one man, in his own particular relationship with God, whether as creator or sanctifier, but the prayer of different religions, as such, with their own particular rite addressed to their own particular divinity. Holy Scripture, (both the Old and the New Testaments) teach us that the only prayer pleasing to God is that of He, Whom He established as sole mediator between Himself and men, and that this prayer can only be found in the one true religion. God considers an abomination all other religions, especially idolatry, the summum of all superstitions.

Moreover, how can one hope to claim that religions that fail to recognize the one true God can possibly obtain anything from Him? Saint Paul assures us that these false gods are fallen angels and demons. "But the things which the heathens sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils and not to God. And I would not that you should be made partakers with devils. You cannot drink the chalice of the Lord, and the chalice of devils: you cannot be partakers of the table of the Lord, and of the table of devils." (I Cor. 10: 20-21)

Inviting these religions to pray is inviting them to make an act that God reproves, that he condemns in the first commandment, one God alone shall you adore. It is leading the members of such religions into error and condoning their ignorance and misfortune.

Worse still: this invitation implies that their prayers might be useful, or even necessary, in order to obtain peace. Almighty God made it perfectly clear what He thinks of this, via the words of his apostle Saint Paul: "Bear not the yoke with unbelievers. For what participation hath justice with injustice? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath the faithful with the unbeliever? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God; as God saith: ‘I will dwell in them, and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."(II Cor. 6: 14-16)

"We will never fully understand the struggle between the good and the wicked throughout history, as long as we do not see it as the personal and unyielding battle for all time between Satan and Jesus Christ." wrote Archbishop Lefebvre in all his wisdom. (Spiritual Journey, p. 37; available from Angelus Press for $7.95) This fundamental truth, as far as war and peace are concerned, would appear to have been totally forgotten in the thinking behind the initiative in Assisi.

At one point during the day, everyone will be gathered together. When, then, will the participants hear the cry of the first Pope, Saint Peter "Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12) The same Jesus Christ, sole Savior, is also the sole author of peace. But will anyone dare point out these elementary truths to guests who are strangers to Christianity? Fear of hurting their feelings will mean that this absolutely essential condition for true peace will be overlooked or reduced to a purely subjective belief ("for us Christians, Jesus Christ is God" etc.)

As we have just pointed out: Not only is there only one true God and "So that they are inexcusable." (Romans 1:20) but there is also only one mediator (I Tim 2, 5), one sole ambassador authorised by God, who intercedes ceaselessly on our behalf (Heb 7, 25). Religions which refuse to recognise His divinity explicitly, such as Judaism and Islam, have no chance of having their prayers answered, because of so fundamental an error. "Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son, hath the Father also." (I John 2:22-23)

Despite monotheistic appearances, we do not have the same God, we do not have the same mediator. Only the mystical bride of Christ (Eph 5, 32) has the prerogative of obtaining from God, in the name of, and through, Our Lord Jesus Christ, any favours, in particular that of peace. Such is the faith that the Church has taught and believed constantly, throughout the ages and from time immemorial. This is, by no means, a question of intolerance or of disdain for one’s neighbor, it is a question of an unchangeable truth. "No one comes to the Father but through me." (John 14,6)

To make gestures, or to get others to make them, that no longer express this, is to deceive oneself. It offends God, Our Lord Jesus Christ in whom He is well pleased and His Holy Church (Mt 16, 18). How can those who refuse this mediation -as do the Jews and Muslims explicitly, in refusing to recognize His divinity –possibly hope to have their prayers answered? The same goes for those who refuse to accept the Church’s role as mediator.

John Paul II has attempted to justify the prayer meetings in Assisi on several occasions. In fact, one of his arguments is founded on the definition of prayer. "All authentic prayer comes from the Holy Ghost who dwells mysteriously in every soul". Inasmuch as one attributes the correct meaning to the word "authentic", one could accept the first part of the sentence. But it is obvious that one cannot say that the prayer of a Buddhist, before an idol of Buddha, of that of a witchdoctor smoking the peace pipe, or that of an animist, is authentic.

The only authentic prayer is true prayer addressed to the true God. It is totally wrong to qualify a prayer addressed to the devil as authentic. Can the prayer of a fanatical terrorist, before crashing into the Manhattan tower: "Allah is great" be called authentic?

Wasn’t he convinced that he was doing the right thing, doesn’t that make him sincere? It is clear that a purely subjective way of looking at things is not sufficient to make a prayer authentic.

The second part of the sentence: "the Holy Ghost dwells mysteriously in every soul", or in every man, is certainly false. The word "mysteriously" can be misleading: in Catholic theology, as in Holy Scripture, the dwelling of the Holy Ghost is directly linked to the presence of sanctifying grace. One of the first formulae used in baptism consists of commanding the devil to leave the soul in order to let the Holy Ghost enter it. This demonstrates quite clearly that the Holy Ghost did not dwell in the soul before baptism. And so, the justification for the interdenominational day of prayer at Assisi is based on a false premise.

Those wishing to promote dialogue, which requires considering the other party in a highly positive light, argue that there is much good in other religions, and, given that God is the sole source of good, God is at work in other religions. This is pure sophistry, based on the lack of distinction between natural order and supernatural order. It goes without saying that, when one speaks of the action of God in a religion, one implies a work of salvation. This means God who saves by His grace. His supernatural grace. On the other hand, the good referred to in other religions, (non-Christian ones at any rate) is merely natural; in such cases, God is acting as creator, Who gives being to all things, and not as savior. The determination of the Vatican II Council to dispense with the distinction between the order of grace and natural order bears, in this respect, its most poisonous fruits. The result is the worst sort of confusion, that which leads people to think that any religion can finally obtain the greatest favors from God. This is a huge fraud, a ridiculous error.

It is in keeping with the masonic plot to establish a grand temple of universal brotherhood above all religions and beliefs, "Unity in diversity" a concept so dear to the New Age and to globalization. "We were excommunicated by Clement XI in 1738 because of our interdenominational principles. But the Church was definitely in error, if it is true that, on 27th October 1986, the present Pope gathered together men of all religious confessions in Assisi to pray for peace. What else are our brothers looking for when they gather together in temples, than love between men, tolerance, solidarity, defense of the dignity of the human-being, considering themselves equal, above political and religious beliefs and the color of their skin?" (Grand Master Armando Corona, of the Grand Lodge of the Spring Equinox, Hiram –voice of the Grand Orient of Italy –April 1987)

One thing is certain: there is no better way to provoke the anger of God.

This is why, despite our strong desire for the peace of God, we will have absolutely nothing to do with this day of prayer on 24th January, in Assisi. Nullam partem.

+Bernard Fellay
 
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Steadfast

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The views of Marcel Lefebvre and The Society of Saint Pius X are not those of all Catholics loyal to the current teachings of the Catholic Church. Their website equates the current Mass as, "LITURGY FOR A MODERNIST RELIGION which would marry the Church and the world, Catholicism and Protestantism, light and darkness." While they have the right to believe as they like, these beliefs reflect a rebellion against changes made in the post Vatican II era. see link, http://www.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q5_novusordo.htm
 
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SSPX

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"The views of Marcel Lefebvre and The Society of Saint Pius X are not those of all Catholics loyal to the current teachings of the Catholic Church. "

As if Church teaching can change... but you're right, the Society of St. Pius X rejects the novelty of Vatican II, which no Catholic is obliged to accept.

I have a question. What is that loaf of rye bread doing next to the chalice in your little picture? Please don't tell me that is supposed to symbolize the eucharist.
 
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Shane Roach

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Originally posted by SSPX


The establishment of civil (political) peace between nations by congresses, discussions, diplomacy, with the intervention of influential persons of different nations and religions, is one thing. It is another to claim to obtain the gift of peace from God by the prayer of all (false) religions. Such an initiative is completely inconsistent with the Catholic faith and goes against the first commandment.


+Bernard Fellay

As a huge political force in the world, it might just be ok that the Catholic church make overtures of peace in ways that do not conflict directly with spiritual truths.

We in the protestant community routinely pray with the unsaved at evangelical events. Sometimes this prayer is for their salvation, sometimes they are just wanting prayer as a sort of emotional boost. I don't see how praying alongside or with someone not of the faith is a sin so long as the praying Christian is clear about to whom they themsleves are praying.

I find that the struggle to seek and to save the lost is not synonymous with provoking and enraging those who will not be saved, even as I take quite seriously the verse you quote regarding the knowledge of Christ and the nature of Antichrist.

Do you also equate praying with a protestant as praying with someone who is praying to the devil? I will assure you beforehand that I will not take the opportunity to pick a fight over this if you say yes, but I do want to understand exactly what prompts your obviously very strong objection here.
 
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Steadfast

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Originally posted by SSPX
"The views of Marcel Lefebvre and The Society of Saint Pius X are not those of all Catholics loyal to the current teachings of the Catholic Church. "

As if Church teaching can change... but you're right, the Society of St. Pius X rejects the novelty of Vatican II, which no Catholic is obliged to accept.

I have a question. What is that loaf of rye bread doing next to the chalice in your little picture? Please don't tell me that is supposed to symbolize the eucharist.

:rolleyes: Surely you know He is the Bread of Life? The traditional gifts brought to the alter are bread and wine. It seems that I'm more traditional than you are. It's wheat bread with a touch of honey bty. :(
 
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SSPX

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We in the protestant community routinely pray with the unsaved at evangelical events. Sometimes this prayer is for their salvation, sometimes they are just wanting prayer as a sort of emotional boost.

OK, but you wouldn't bother asking a hindu (knowing he/she is going to pray to some false deity) to pray for you, right? This is the problem of Assisi. Pagans were invited to pray for peace.

Do you also equate praying with a protestant as praying with someone who is praying to the devil?

First off, just to make things clear... I didn't write that letter, Bishop Fellay did. But anyway, I wouldn't equate praying with a protestant as praying with someone who is praying to the devil. The problem with what went on in Assisi is that the Pope invited representatives of the world's major religions to pray for peace, each in their own way, to their own gods. It seems nice that all these people are getting together, but it gives the impression that prayers to Buddha or some other false god can bring about peace. It implicitely denies the fact that buddhism, hindoism etc. are not the way to true peace; Jesus Christ is the only way to true peace. This whole event promotes the idea that all religions are more or less good and praiseworthy (indifferentism).

Joe
 
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Shane Roach

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Originally posted by SSPX


...but you wouldn't bother asking a hindu (knowing he/she is going to pray to some false deity) to pray for you, right? This is the problem of Assisi. Pagans were invited to pray for peace.

Joe

No I guess I wouldn't. :) But, the situation is a little more involved. What I might do, if I were in a situation where I was in a community with many pagans, some of whom violently persecute the Church, is I might strategically pick times and places where it would be prudent not to press the issue of the unique truth of Christ in the face of people who obviously have no interest in Him. I can see a situation here where, for the sake of relative peace in the secular world, one might participate in such a group.

On the other hand, I understand the concern you have I think a little better today, for whatever reason. I was just thinking of Daniel in the Lion's Den and thinking this situation has some interesting parallels. There is something to be said for steadfast refusal to accomodate the expectations of those who have no faith in Christ.

I don't know, my initial knee-jerk reaction though was to wonder why anyone would be upset by such a thing. Also I was reminded of Mark 9:38-41, where even though a man was not of the disciples, he was casting out demons in Christ's name, and Christ says to leave him to it.

Sometimes it is hard for me to discern who is and who isn't praying to Christ. Antichrist works both in and out of the church, likewise I believe the Holy Spirit works outside the church as well as in. It's an interesting and difficult question as to how the official church should act regarding other religions.

Now as far as folk being indifferent, there is a problem I have with certain flavors of evangelicals, and that is that the mission is to go and preach Christ risen, seeka dn save the lost. Christ assures us that no one given to His charge will ever be completely lost. "Those He foreknew He also predestined..." and "whom He predestined, He also called, ..." And somewhere in the Gospels, "My sheep know my voice." In any event, there is room for not pressing the issue of exclusivity without necessarily being indifferent to seeking our Brethren to save them from a life seperated from their spiritual family here on Earth. We are allowed, indeed commanded, to do what we can to avoid unecessary confrontation with the enemy's servants "Do not cast your pearls before swine, lest they turn and rend you.." Matthew something...

Difficult subject to me.
 
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Steadfast

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Originally posted by AlphaPhi
In the Catholic Church the host is not brought out in the form of a loaf of bread, but as unleavened bread wafers. In fact, I don't believe you could use leavened bread in a Western Rite Catholic Mass.

You're quite right. It is unleavened bread that is use in Mass. :) My point to SSPX's dig against my icon is that any kind of bread can be symbolic of the Eucharist and that symbolic meaning should be respected. (Rye bread indeed) :( I simply like this icon. I am on the lookout for an icon of an elevated Host but I haven't seen any that appeal to me yet. ;) At my parish there is a bread ministry. At Christmas and Easter the bread ministers bake unleavened wheat bread that is offered on the alter. It's a nice tradition, and yes there is honey in the recipe. ;)
 
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VOW

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Originally posted by Steadfast
At my parish there is a bread ministry. At Christmas and Easter the bread ministers bake unleavened wheat bread that is offered on the alter. It's a nice tradition, and yes there is honey in the recipe. ;)

Hey, that sounds really NICE!

I've read that some truly Orthodox Jews in the US actually import handmade matzohs from Israel to use during Passover. I always thought it would quite befitting to use those same matzohs at Good Friday.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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SSPX

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Originally posted by Shane Roach
I can see a situation here where, for the sake of relative peace in the secular world, one might participate in such a group.

Yes, in some instances its a necessity for people of different religions to get together to work for peace. The middle east is a good example of where this needs to be done. As bishop Fellay said:

"The establishment of civil (political) peace between nations by congresses, discussions, diplomacy, with the intervention of influential persons of different nations and religions, is one thing. It is another to claim to obtain the gift of peace from God by the prayer of all (false) religions. Such an initiative is completely inconsistent with the Catholic faith and goes against the first commandment."

From Pope John Paul II's address to the representatives of the worlds religions at Assisi: "1. We have come to Assisi on a pilgrimage of peace. We are here, as representatives of different religions, to examine ourselves before God concerning our commitment to peace, to ask him for this gift, to bear witness to our shared longing for a world of greater justice and solidarity."

He is asking Jews and Muslims who explicitely reject Jesus Christ as the Son of God to pray to God for peace. Now, remember, he's not just asking a whole bunch of people, some of whom happen to not be Christian, to pray for peace, rather he's asking certain people who were chosen to represent their false religions to pray for peace. See the difference? If God hears the prayers of a muslim, its not because he's a muslim, but inspite of it, so to ask representatives of false religions to pray for peace, he is asking for prayers which by their nature are displeasing to God, and cannot be answered.

And again:

"7. Brothers and Sisters gathered here from different parts of the world! Shortly we shall go to the arranged places in order to beg from God the gift of peace for all humanity. Let us ask that we be given the gift of recognizing the path of peace, of right relationship with God and among ourselves. Let us ask God to open people’s hearts to the truth about himself and the truth about man. We have a single goal and a shared intention, but we will pray in different ways, respecting one another’s religious traditions. "

I think the Pope is a bit too optimistic. "Let us ask God to open people's hearts to the truth" How exactly is a voodoo priest (yes, there was one there) or an animist smoking his peace pipe, or a Buddhist monk capable of asking God to "open people's hearts to the truth"? Their religions are obsticles to having their prayers answered.

YOu can read more about the day of prayer for peace and see pictures of it at:
http://www.vatican.va/special/assisi_20020124_en.html
Joe
 
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Steadfast

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SSPX,

LOL Ok, That is the most legalistic and silly thing you've said yet! Jesus is not a recipe. The Consecration is a Miracle that can not be spoiled by a bit of honey. The recipe for the bread is approved by the Church in fact. Yes the Post Vatican II Church! God bless you and I hope you do return to the Catholic Church one day.

(Steadfast shakes the dust of this thread from his feet and vow's never to waste time like this again.)
 
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nyj

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Originally posted by Steadfast

Consecration is a Miracle that can not be spoiled by a bit of honey. The recipe for the bread is approved by the Church in fact. Yes the Post Vatican II Church!

Actually, the addition of honey would invalidate that bread from being used legitimately as the Eucharist. You are correct that there is indeed a recipe that calls for bread, rather than the wafers that most of us grew up with, but it is purely wheat and water. The recipe has been published by the Archdiocese of Chicago and has been approved by the Vatican, but it has no additives other than the wheat and water. It is the recipe we use at our own parish and I can assure you, nothing but that wheat and water is added.
 
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nyj

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A RECIPE FOR EUCHARISTIC BREAD

'Bread Recipe,' by Dennis Krouse. Reprinted from Liturgy 80, October 1986, page 12. A publication of the Archdiocese of Chicago, OFFICE OF DIVINE WORSHIP. Used With Permission.

The following "Bread Recipe" is unleavened and contains no additives. When baked according to instructions given, it is soft, easy to break and easily consumed.

1.FOR SEVENTY COMMUNICANTS, use 1/3 cup whole-wheat flour to 3 cup unbleached white flour. The mixture of flour should be kept in an airtight container in the freezer and used while cold. (The cold flour helps prevent a separate crust from forming.)

2. Use one cup of the flour mixture to approximately 1/2 cup of spring water (Perrier is good). The water should be refrigerator cold.

3. Quickly mix the flour and water together with a fork until all the flour is moist. Form dough into a smooth ball. Usually more flour needs to be sprinkled on the surface of the dough to prevent stickiness.

4. Gently flatten the ball of dough into a circular loaf about 1/2 to 3/4 inch thick. If necessary, turn any uneven edges underneath.

5. Place the unscored loaf on a lightly oiled baking sheet (suggest using Pam; wipe off any excess).

6. Place in a preheated oven at 425 degrees.

7. After approximately twelve to fifteen minutes the top crust should have raised slightly. Prick the crust with a toothpick in several places, turn the loaf over and continue to bake about five minutes. (This gives evenness to the top of the loaf.)

8. Turn loaf right side up again and continue to bake until the crust is very lightly browned, about ten to fifteen minutes more for a total of twenty-five to thirty minutes. Baking time when using more than 1 1/2 cups of flour needs to be extended.

9. Place the loaf on a rack for cooling. (It is helpful to slice the bottom crust off to check for any rawness.)

10. Bread is best when made fresh the day of the liturgy. However, after cooling it can be tightly wrapped and frozen for later use.
 
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Wolseley

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I am on the lookout for an icon of an elevated Host but I haven't seen any that appeal to me yet.
Try this site:

http://www.webclipart.about.com/cs/catholic/index.htm.

You might find something you like. :) (Be advised--the site has a lot of annoying pop-up advertisments.)
No, only pure wheat bread is valid matter... adding honey invalidates it, which means you aint gettin your Jesus.
Of course, one might say the same thing about hosts consecrated by schismatic priests/bishops, invalidly ordained....



.
 
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SSPX

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Of course, one might say the same thing about hosts consecrated by schismatic priests/bishops, invalidly ordained....

If they are invalidly ordained, than of course they cannot cosecrate the eucharist, but being schismatic does not make ordination invalid. All thats required for the validity of any sacrament is valid matter, proper form and intention. Thats why the Catholic Church has always considered the sacraments of the Eastern Orthodox schismatics valid, they have preserved all three of these requirements.
 
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