• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

An atheist faces death

Akita Suggagaki

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
11,603
8,098
71
Midwest
✟426,942.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Leaving the church is not the same as leaving Christ.
he is a "recovering evangelical". His parents were pretty strong conservative evangelicals and he feels damaged by that. Also, many years ago he lost a son to cancer. That was a curve ball he could not accept. So he turned his life towards bringing as much kindness and goodness into the world as he could.
 
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Under the Southern Cross I stand...
Aug 19, 2018
25,928
18,042
73
Bondi
✟443,295.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
It amazes me as to just how long folks here can remain ignorant of the stop signs. This is not a forum for debate. WAKE UP!
I think that refers to members who are struggling with belief and asking for help.
 
Upvote 0

d taylor

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2018
14,797
6,242
61
Mississippi
✟365,589.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Neither does the gentleman in question need anyone else's. And considering the number of years he's been here then a sudden death bed conversion is not likely. So is he going to decide that taking the possibility of eternal life is a good option if he's spent a lifetime being convinced that it doesn't exist?​

It's not possible for him to decide it's true if he's convinced it isn't.

I've been given none at all. Literally none. If I had then you could refer to them. You can't because they don't exist.
-

I did not realize this person was your good buddy and you know what he needs.

But beliefs can be changed especially when they are based off of lies like atheism and science, etc..
 
Upvote 0

Akita Suggagaki

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
11,603
8,098
71
Midwest
✟426,942.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I am very concerned for both of you. First for the man espousing atheism and then for you as someone called to officiate upon his death yet not being moved to implore him to reconsider the Gospel. I feel it is imperative you speak truth to him and if he won’t listen then to gracefully bow out of the officiating. Or do SOMETHING out of love and respect for the poor wayward soul.
As I said, he comes from an evangelical upbringing. He has heard of Jesus and the Gospel. For him it was mostly judgment and condemnation, I guess. I consider it an honor and a privilege to officiate a celebration of his life. What I am doing is listening to his him, hearing what has been important to him, what has given his life meaning and purpose, meaningful relationships.
 
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Under the Southern Cross I stand...
Aug 19, 2018
25,928
18,042
73
Bondi
✟443,295.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Jerry N.

Well-Known Member
Sep 25, 2024
1,453
823
70
Brzostek
✟92,314.00
Country
Poland
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
It amazes me as to just how long folks here can remain ignorant of the stop signs. This is not a forum for debate. WAKE UP!

I don’t understand what you want to stop.
 
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Under the Southern Cross I stand...
Aug 19, 2018
25,928
18,042
73
Bondi
✟443,295.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I did not realize this person was your good buddy and you know what he needs.​
You seem keen on telling us what you think he personally needs. I'm explaining what I think is not appropriate in a situation like this.

And to be honest, us discussing this gentleman's last days in this manner is probably not appropriate. Maybe we should conclude the discussion.
 
Upvote 0

Akita Suggagaki

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
11,603
8,098
71
Midwest
✟426,942.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Then it's possible that if people remain saved and can't lose it, it would explain why this "atheist" had peace.
I think possibilities are endless when it comes to God's mercy and compassion.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: PloverWing
Upvote 0

Akita Suggagaki

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
11,603
8,098
71
Midwest
✟426,942.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You seem keen on telling us what you think he personally needs. I'm explaining what I think is not appropriate in a situation like this.

And to be honest, us discussing this gentleman's last days in this manner is probably not appropriate. Maybe we should conclude the discussion.
I am actually edified by him. His life has been very pragmatic with kindness compassion, thoughtfulness, interest, love virtues. It seemed to me a foundational faith in the goodness of creation and life itself. And though there is darkness and disturbed people, our role in bringing light and peace is all the more important.

Perhaps he is one of whom Karl Rahner referred to as, "Anonymous Christian", individuals who, while not explicitly identifying as Christians, live in accordance with God's grace and moral truths. But that is a term that only Christians would need to come up with to make sense of such a life.
 
Upvote 0

Jerry N.

Well-Known Member
Sep 25, 2024
1,453
823
70
Brzostek
✟92,314.00
Country
Poland
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
He's an atheist. That's not appropriate.
That is a strange thing to say, unless the atheist is in the room. I don’t believe that Mary can answer prayers herself. However, if my Catholic friends want to pray to Mary for me, I don’t see how it should make me unhappy. They mean it as a kindness.
 
Upvote 0

Bradskii

Under the Southern Cross I stand...
Aug 19, 2018
25,928
18,042
73
Bondi
✟443,295.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
That is a strange thing to say, unless the atheist is in the room. I don’t believe that Mary can answer prayers herself. However, if my Catholic friends want to pray to Mary for me, I don’t see how it should make me unhappy. They mean it as a kindness.
I agree. I took it to mean would it be ok to pray together.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jerry N.
Upvote 0

Jerry N.

Well-Known Member
Sep 25, 2024
1,453
823
70
Brzostek
✟92,314.00
Country
Poland
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
I am actually edified by him. His life has been very pragmatic with kindness compassion, thoughtfulness, interest, love virtues. It seemed to me a foundational faith in the goodness of creation and life itself. And though there is darkness and disturbed people, our role in bringing light and peace is all the more important.

Perhaps he is one of whom Karl Rahner referred to as, "Anonymous Christian", individuals who, while not explicitly identifying as Christians, live in accordance with God's grace and moral truths. But that is a term that only Christians would need to come up with to make sense of such a life.
To proclaim that you believe in God and the salvation offered by Christ is not a small thing, if you really think about what you are proclaiming. Some people might treat it as a little higher than ordering a pizza, but if you really understand what it means, it is no small matter. Hesitation is understandable. I thought a long time about what the “I do” meant at my wedding, and I nearly fainted doing it. (It was a good choice.)
 
Upvote 0

d taylor

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2018
14,797
6,242
61
Mississippi
✟365,589.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
You seem keen on telling us what you think he personally needs. I'm explaining what I think is not appropriate in a situation like this.

And to be honest, us discussing this gentleman's last days in this manner is probably not appropriate. Maybe we should conclude the discussion.
-
My first post in this thread, in no way stated what I think this person personally needs.

I simply stated from The Bible what Jesus stated in The Bible. Which is how to receive Eternal Life and what awaits the person who does not believe what Jesus states.
 
Upvote 0

throughfierytrial

Truth-Lover
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
3,108
893
Leesburg
✟743,697.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That would be thoughtful.

He's an atheist. That's not appropriate.
Those are conversation openers. An unbeliever or ex believer has often built up a stubborn ego against God and yet has some deep private doubts and fears that he may actually be wrong-headed. Maybe however he has a latent seed of faith which needs to be watered.

This unbeliever seems to realize his friend is a believer and will measure his sincerity by his actions. No action, no words would serve to make this unbeliever feel secure in his ways should the OP not at least open that conversation.

My own brother had turned away from the church and relied on his own goodness. Facing death in the hospital a chaplain visited him for a friendly hello . Days later while on hospice at his home that same chaplain came to my brother unannounced finding him weak and outside. The chaplain asked if he could pray with my brother and my brother hesitantly said ok. When finished with the prayer my brother remarked… that wasn’t so bad after all. :)

Stubbornness exists. God calls us to make the most of every opportunity as that chaplain did indeed. My sister-in-law relayed the story. I had been praying fervently for his change of heart. My brother did not inform friends, relatives or family of his illness which had plagued him beginning a year prior. All a surprise to us until his death notification by his wife.

I know of at least several such people. So I know as I Corinthians 13 states… love always, among other characteristics, Hopes. And Romans says … and Hope shall not disappoint us.

In Acts God tells Apostle Paul… these too shall be given you… so God has mercy on those who pray for the unbeliever we will address and the unbeliever and can bring success to the mission.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jerry N.
Upvote 0

throughfierytrial

Truth-Lover
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
3,108
893
Leesburg
✟743,697.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As I said, he comes from an evangelical upbringing. He has heard of Jesus and the Gospel. For him it was mostly judgment and condemnation, I guess. I consider it an honor and a privilege to officiate a celebration of his life. What I am doing is listening to his him, hearing what has been important to him, what has given his life meaning and purpose, meaningful relationships.
Peter needed to be reinstated. Jesus did it in a loving manner.

You, being a Christian would be showing more love, care and concern for your friend by doing the same as Jesus. Make the most of every opportunity sir!

People turn away and develop cold, callous hearts. You can try to break down that barrier he’s built up by asking him if he’d join you in a prayer for himself since in that way he could return you a favor which is just dear as you are to me…or a similar message. If he states he has no faith then you may reply… then I shall have to have faith for both of us… embark upon your short and encouraging prayer. You could pray.. Dear Lord I pray for my dear friend that you have mercy on him and to once again restore his faith that he may see your face in heaven where there will be great joy when he enters your presence.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jerry N.
Upvote 0

throughfierytrial

Truth-Lover
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
3,108
893
Leesburg
✟743,697.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
O
I am actually edified by him. His life has been very pragmatic with kindness compassion, thoughtfulness, interest, love virtues. It seemed to me a foundational faith in the goodness of creation and life itself. And though there is darkness and disturbed people, our role in bringing light and peace is all the more important.

Perhaps he is one of whom Karl Rahner referred to as, "Anonymous Christian", individuals who, while not explicitly identifying as Christians, live in accordance with God's grace and moral truths. But that is a term that only Christians would need to come up with to make sense of such a lifeNope…
I am actually edified by him. His life has been very pragmatic with kindness compassion, thoughtfulness, interest, love virtues. It seemed to me a foundational faith in the goodness of creation and life itself. And though there is darkness and disturbed people, our role in bringing light and peace is all the more important.

Perhaps he is one of whom Karl Rahner referred to as, "Anonymous Christian", individuals who, while not explicitly identifying as Christians, live in accordance with God's grace and moral truths. But that is a term that only Christians would need to come up with to make sense of such a life.
Nope.
see Romans… when gentiles do the things required by the Law they show they are a law unto themselves for God has written it on their hearts. They have no excuse.
 
Upvote 0

throughfierytrial

Truth-Lover
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
3,108
893
Leesburg
✟743,697.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Nope.
see Romans… when gentiles do the things required by the Law they show they are a law unto themselves for God has written it on their hearts. They have no excuse.
 
Upvote 0

throughfierytrial

Truth-Lover
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
3,108
893
Leesburg
✟743,697.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
-
There is no eternal life return policy with God. So this atheist identifying person, very well at some point in his life could have been a second soil believer.
Your comment I believe is based on your OSAS beliefs. I hold no such beliefs… Timothy states… if we disown Him, He will disown us.
On the other hand… it also states if we are faithless, He will remain faithful, for He cannot disown Himself.
One, in mercy, may hope this “atheist” is really a product of faithlessness due to his own unfortunate circumstances or something.
Or, is an unbeliever at heart and will convert.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jerry N.
Upvote 0

Akita Suggagaki

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
11,603
8,098
71
Midwest
✟426,942.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
People turn away and develop cold, callous hearts.
I wouldn't describe him that way, "cold" "callous heart". Just the opposite. I think his world view has widened beyond the narrow Biblically defined God he was brought up believing in and wounded by. In spite of that he has managed to grow into a kind, compassionate and caring person. I do not feel a need to project my theology and beliefs on to him. It is enough to journey with him, be present to him, mediate Christ's presence and love as best I can. I am aware some may see that as a failure on my part, not explicit enough with Bible verses and "You need to come to Jesus".

I see God as bigger than that. we all ultimately have to let go, even of our own understandings, and rest in the truth in the Big mystery. He has had enough evangelism, and it brought him to atheism, or at least agnosticism. I actually think his faith is very deep. It does not depend on some formula or rational cognitive articles of faith. If his peace is authentic and not just a mask, and that is not my judgment to make, then he has found an existential foundation to face the end of his time on earth. What happens beyond that is a matter of belief for all of us. And we often argue about all that. I simply try to help him discover what is most sacred to him.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: 2PhiloVoid
Upvote 0