Using the term "rapture" incorrectly

keras · Thursday at 8:39 PM

Douggg said:
keras, as each martyred in Christ is killed, where does their soul go to ?

Revelation 6:
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Explain Luke 19:40.
Is Jesus saying that stones can speak, or is He giving an example of Gods power to make anything preach or praise Him?

I regard Rev 6:10 , as simply allegorical and whatever it is; it surely does not support your false r/r theory.

Douggg · Thursday at 9:43 PM

keras said:
This idea is another violation of scripture.
We are told that ALL the dead 'sleep' in their graves until they stand before God - after the Millennium. Samuel, Moses, David, Lazarus, Stephen and Billy Graham, all await that time.
Your idea of 'all' Christians, makes no recognition of the pre Christian believers in God.

Regarding the pre-Christian believers in God., when Jesus died, His soul descended into hell, the place of the dead to preach the gospel message of salvation.

Then Jesus lead captivity captive and they ascended to heaven with Jesus.

Douggg · Thursday at 9:47 PM

keras said:
I regard Rev 6:10 , as simply allegorical and whatever it is; it surely does not support your false r/r theory.

Revelation 6::9-10 an allegory ?

No, their souls are in heaven. Which shows your position that no man goes to heaven wrong.

JulieB67 · Thursday at 11:13 PM

keras said:
Verse 14 is confusing

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

It doesn't seem confusing at all.

Verse 13 is already talking about those that have already passed on and the next verse promises that Christ will return with them.

JulieB67 · Thursday at 11:15 PM

Douggg said:
ulie, 1Thessalonians4:14-18 is not about Jesus's return, but about the resurrection/rapture event

It most certainly is about his return.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise them which are asleep."

keras · Friday at 12:09 AM

Douggg said:
Regarding the pre-Christian believers in God., when Jesus died, His soul descended into hell, the place of the dead to preach the gospel message of salvation.

Then Jesus lead captivity captive and they ascended to heaven with Jesus.

Can't see how you get that out of 1 Peter 3:19
More fanciful dreams and wild assumptions.

Douggg said:
No, their souls are in heaven. Which shows your position that no man goes to heaven wrong.

My position is that no living person can go to heaven and to live there.

If you want your soul to go there and be kept under the Altar; get your head chopped off.

JulieB67 said:
Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

It doesn't seem confusing at all.

Verse 13 is already talking about those that have already passed on and the next verse promises that Christ will return with them.

God is not coming with Jesus, He does not come to us until after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7 THEN God will raise all the people from Adam to then, to stand in Judgement. ONLY Then will anyone receive Eternal Life.
Do you not realize there has to be a Judgement before anyone qualifies for Eternal life? Even those GT martyrs are raised only back to mortal life.
Are you quite happy to ignore Revelation 20:4-6?

Douggg · Friday at 12:34 AM

keras said:
My position is that no living person can go to heaven and to live there.

So you are admitting that the soul of a Christian when he dies goes to heaven ?

Douggg · Friday at 12:40 AM

JulieB67 said:
It most certainly is about his return.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise them which are asleep."

The coming of the Lord is not referring to His Second Coming to be present on the earth. But His coming for the resurrection/rapture event. Which the resurrected/raptured in Christ go to heaven with Jesus and then later return with Jesus at His bride in Revelation 19.

Julie, the resurrection/rapture event will take place before God's wrath begins. 1Thessalonians5:9-11.

keras · Friday at 2:04 AM

Douggg said:
So you are admitting that the soul of a Christian when he dies goes to heaven ?

A dead persons soul returns to Him who made it. Eccl 12:7 Only the souls of those martyred for God, from Abel to today, are special and kept under the Altar in heaven.
What never goes to heaven is a living human. No scripture says this and to promote it is serious error.

Douggg said:
The coming of the Lord is not referring to His Second Coming to be present on the earth. But His coming for the resurrection/rapture event. Which the resurrected/raptured in Christ go to heaven with Jesus and then later return with Jesus at His bride in Revelation 19.

Totally unscriptural and just impossible fables.
1 Thess 4:16-18, is about the glorious Return, proved by how those faithful, will be gathered to Him, Matthew 24:30-31, in Jerusalem; Zechariah 14:4

Douggg · Friday at 3:57 AM

keras said:
Totally unscriptural and just impossible fables.

keras, 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 says when the resurrection/rapture event will happen. Before God's wrath begins.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Douggg · Friday at 4:02 AM

keras said:
A dead persons soul returns to Him who made it. Eccl 12:7

That verse is referring to the spirit of life - not the person's soul.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Where a person's soul goes after death depends upon whether they are saved of not. A saved person's soul goes to heaven to be with Jesus who is in heaven.

JulieB67 · Friday at 6:35 AM

keras said:
1 Thess 4:16-18, is about the glorious Return

You state this but totally separate these verses when the original subject was about those who had passed away in Christ?

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise them which are asleep."

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

JulieB67 · Friday at 6:49 AM

Douggg said:
The coming of the Lord is not referring to His Second Coming to be present on the earth. But His coming for the resurrection/rapture event. Which the resurrected/raptured in Christ go to heaven with Jesus and then later return with Jesus at His bride in Revelation 19.

Julie, the resurrection/rapture event will take place before God's wrath begins. 1Thessalonians5:9-11.

You're leaving out a lot of verses. And we can't separate his Second "coming" into two events. It's not scriptural at all. You act as if God can't protect his own during wrath.

Once Paul has comforted the Thessalonians about the passed away loved ones in Christ he continues with the the subject then being about his coming. Verses you continue to omit-

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape

I Thessalonians 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

This tells us that we most certainly be here during that day but it will not overtake us. Why? Because one should be on watch. We watch for the signs laid out that Christ gave us. He tells us in the gospels and Paul also tells us.

I Thessalonians 5:5 "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

I Thessalonians 5:6 "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

I Thessalonians 5:8 "But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation."

I Thessalonians 5:9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

I Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together in Him."

I Thessalonians 5:11 "Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another even as also you do."

Matthew 24:42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Matthew 24:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

Matthew 24:44 "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

Same event, same warnings, same "thief in the night analogies" about his coming.

Douggg · Friday at 7:25 AM

JulieB67 said:
You act as if God can't protect his own during wrath.

He does protect His own. By taking them out of the world before His wrath begins.

JulieB67 said:
And we can't separate his Second "coming" into two events.

There is only one Second Coming of Jesus to be present upon this earth. Which will be at the end of the great tribulation. We agree on that, right ?

Differently, the coming of Jesus in 1Thessalonians4:14-18 is not His Second Coming, but His coming for the resurrection/rapture event, before God's wrath begins.

Spiritual Jew · Friday at 9:06 AM

JulieB67 said:
It most certainly is about his return.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise them which are asleep."

I agree 100%. It's mind boggling that anyone can deny that verse is about Jesus's return. It's just unbelievable to me.

Spiritual Jew · Friday at 9:13 AM

Douggg said:
The coming of the Lord is not referring to His Second Coming to be present on the earth. But His coming for the resurrection/rapture event. Which the resurrected/raptured in Christ go to heaven with Jesus and then later return with Jesus at His bride in Revelation 19.

Julie, the resurrection/rapture event will take place before God's wrath begins. 1Thessalonians5:9-11.

You are not looking at the context of the wrath that 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is talking about. You are conveniently skipping from the end of 1 Thessalonians 4 to 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 as if 1 Thessalonians 5:1-8 is not referring to the same event. That's a dishonest way of dealing with scripture. The wrath in 1 Thess 5:9 is referring to the "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "shall not escape" that will occur when Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3). It's not referring to wrath that takes place over a number of years, it's talking about the wrath that will occur on the day Jesus returns. We will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air on that day and on that same day He will take vengeance on all unbelievers. Just as Paul described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 and also here...

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

This passage is basically a brief summary of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11. It's all one event. Verse 10 above is clearly referring to what will happen when the rapture occurs and Paul makes it clear that on that same day Jesus will take vengeance on unbelievers and it will be in the form of "sudden destruction" from which they "shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3).

Spiritual Jew · Friday at 9:22 AM

keras said:
Explain Luke 19:40.
Is Jesus saying that stones can speak, or is He giving an example of Gods power to make anything preach or praise Him?

I regard Rev 6:10 , as simply allegorical and whatever it is; it surely does not support your false r/r theory.

You are absolutely wrong about this. Soul sleep is a false doctrine that typically is only believed by the cults like Jehovah's Witnesses or by fringe Christian groups like Seventh-day Adventists.

Paul made it very clear that when he physically died, he fully expected to then go to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

You deny that when someone is physically dead that they can then be present with the Lord, yet, that is exactly what Paul taught above.

He taught that here as well...

Philippians 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.

Can you see here how Paul was torn between deciding whether he wanted to physically die and then "be with Christ, which is far better" or to "remain in the flesh" in order to continue ministering to those who needed him?

Ed Parenteau · Friday at 11:54 AM

Douggg said:
@Ed Parenteau

The earth spins counterclockwise on its axis.

View attachment 381160

When Jesus comes for the resurrection rapture event, He will circle the earth resurrecting and rapturing as He goes.

View attachment 381161

Paul raises 2 questions that would be asked: 1 Cor 15:35But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?”
His answer: 36:You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37:And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.

So then, is Paul really going to turn right around and say that some lucky group of people thousands or millions of years from then won't have to die after all? This from the same person who tells us the church age has no end.
Ephesians 3:
20Now to Him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to His power that is at work within us, 21to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Besides, the whole earth until the new heavens and earth are the 70 nations of Genesis 10. Map of Genesis 10 whole earth: map of genesis 10 at DuckDuckGo
Map of New Testament world: map of new testament world at DuckDuckGo

That's how He gathers His elect from the 4 corners of the earth.

JulieB67 · Friday at 3:02 PM

Spiritual Jew said:
The wrath in 1 Thess 5:9 is referring to the "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "shall not escape" that will occur when Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3)

Exactly,.

It's just unbelievable to me.

For me as well. I know many of us have different beliefs but it's still hard not to see that 1) It is about his return/coming and 2) all of those following verses are about the same event. Many believe Paul is stating some new thing when in reality he is a another witness to Christ's teachings.

keras · Friday at 4:24 PM

Spiritual Jew said:
Can you see here how Paul was torn between deciding whether he wanted to physically die and then "be with Christ, which is far better" or to "remain in the flesh" in order to continue ministering to those who needed him?

None of your quotes say when Paul expected to be with Christ. The Bible , in Revelation 20:11-15, gives us that information.
However; I guess it nice for most people to think they will go to heaven when they die. And in fact, that is virtually what does happen, as dead people have no cognisance of passing time.

As for the 'rapture to heaven' believers, they are deceived and the Lord has locked them into their delusions. No amount of scriptural proof and logical common sense, changes their stance. They're going to heaven and nobody ain't gonna stop them!
Very sad, really, as when they remain stuck to the earth as disasters fall around them, they may renounce their faith.

Using the term "rapture" incorrectly

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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