Using the term "rapture" incorrectly

JulieB67 · Tuesday at 3:21 AM

Douggg said:
as He returns to heaven.

Not scriptural. Again, it states he's coming. It doesn't state he returns to heaven. We can't add to God's Word.

Aussie52 · Tuesday at 4:26 AM

Douggg said:
Air in that verse is referring to the earth's atmosphere. From there, Jesus will bring the resurrected in Christ and the raptured in Christ with Him as He returns to heaven.

The 'meet' in 1 Thes 4:15 is apantesis in the Greek. The word has reference to civic officials going out to meet a VIP and returning with him to the city.
This means that Christ meets His people in the air and they then return to earth with Christ. 1 Thes 4 is speaking of a post-tribulation coming of Christ as does Mt 24.

keras · Tuesday at 4:26 AM

Spiritual Jew said:
He said it will happen "at the last trumpet". I equate that with the last prophetic trumpet in the book of Revelation which is the seventh trumpet.

How can this idea possibly be right? There comes the 7 Bowls [Vials], after the Seventh Trumpet.
Will every trumpet get thrown into the metal crusher after the Seventh Trumpet?

Spiritual Jew said:
I don't delete the thousand years altogether, I see it as symbolizing the time period that began with the resurrection of Jesus Christ

The plainly stated - five times in Rev 20, of a thousand years, does not symbolise two thousand years.

Aussie52 · Tuesday at 5:52 AM

keras said:
How can this idea possibly be right? There comes the 7 Bowls [Vials], after the Seventh Trumpet.
Will every trumpet get thrown into the metal crusher after the Seventh Trumpet?

The plainly stated - five times in Rev 20, of a thousand years, does not symbolise two thousand years.

In apocalyptic genre, numbers are usually symbolic, so I for one would not be dogmatic about it actually being 1000 years

Ed Parenteau · Tuesday at 10:44 AM

Douggg said:
The rapture is about the sudden change, transformation, of our bodies into eternal life bodies, and being caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and taken to heaven. A sudden disappearance from this earth.

Jesus literally prayed that the believer never be taken out of he world. He didn't use a disclaimer like "until".

Douggg said:
1Corinthians15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

You'll notice that the change is simultaneous with the resurrection. No time difference.
Secondly, Paul had just finished telling us that "the body that is sown is not the body that will be" and that "this perishable can not inherit the imperishable".

Douggg said:
1Thessalonians 4:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Here there is a time difference. Here the resurrection happens first. "Then" -sometime after that- Paul uses the first person plural pronoun while speaking to the Thessalonians and says "we which are alive and remain/survive" Paul uses present participles for living and remaining and not future participles-then uses a future indicative verb-shall be caught up together...-sometime future to the resurrection.
Then Paul shows that whether alive or dead they would live together with Him.-in chapter 5:9For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him.
In Romans, Paul reiterates this. Romans 14:8If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9For this reason Christ died and returned to life, that He might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Douggg · Tuesday at 11:45 AM

JulieB67 said:
Not scriptural. Again, it states he's coming. It doesn't state he returns to heaven. We can't add to God's Word.

Julie, in Revelation 19, the bride of Christ comes with Jesus from heaven. So the saints who make up the bride of Christ must be in heaven before Jesus returns. They will be in heaven as a result of the resurrection/rapture event.

Douggg · Tuesday at 12:18 PM

@Ed Parenteau

The earth spins counterclockwise on its axis.

When Jesus comes for the resurrection rapture event, He will circle the earth resurrecting and rapturing as He goes.

Spiritual Jew · Tuesday at 12:36 PM

keras said:
How can this idea possibly be right?

How can it possibly be wrong?

keras said:
There comes the 7 Bowls [Vials], after the Seventh Trumpet.

Nope. You don't understand the structure and format of the book of Revelation. It is a series of parallel visions or recapitulations that each end in a description of the second coming of Christ from different angles. It's not a telling of events in chronological order throughout. For example, the birth and ascension of Christ are referenced after the seventh trumpet is referenced (compare Revelation 12:5 to Revelation 11:15-18).

Just look at what it says the seventh trumpet signals. That the kingdom(s) of the world have become the kingdom(s) of God the Father and Son. That it's time to destroy those who destroy the earth. Time to judge the dead and reward God's people. How can the 7 vials all occur after the kingdoms of the world have already become the kingdoms of God? It's time for the dead to be judged once the seventh trumpet sounds and that is described in Revelation 20:11-15 as occurring AFTER the thousand years. You are not paying attention to the details here.

keras said:
The plainly stated - five times in Rev 20, of a thousand years, does not symbolise two thousand years.

Will you never stop using this weak argument? The beast is mentioned over 30 times in the book of Revelation. Does that make it a literal beast?

Spiritual Jew · Tuesday at 12:39 PM

Douggg said:
Air in that verse is referring to the earth's atmosphere. From there, Jesus will bring the resurrected in Christ and the raptured in Christ with Him as He returns to heaven.

Show us the scripture that describes the utter chaos, confusion, despair and destruction that would occur after Christians around the world (supposedly) suddenly disappear, leaving everyone else to deal with all the consequences of that.

keras · Tuesday at 4:48 PM

Aussie52 said:
In apocalyptic genre, numbers are usually symbolic, so I for one would not be dogmatic about it actually being 1000 years

I am dogmatic about Gods Plan of 7000 years for mankind.
Using scriptures and known Historical dates, it can be proved that there was exactly 2000 years from Adam to Abram. Then 2000 years Abraham to Jesus. Then almost another 2000 years of this Church age. Finally, the one thousand years of King Jesus on earth.
Then the Judgment and Spiritual Eternity, for those whose name is found in the Book of Life.

keras · Tuesday at 5:08 PM

Spiritual Jew said:
Just look at what it says the seventh trumpet signals. That the kingdom(s) of the world have become the kingdom(s) of God the Father and Son. That it's time to destroy those who destroy the earth. Time to judge the dead and reward God's people. How can the 7 vials all occur after the kingdoms of the world have already become the kingdoms of God? It's time for the dead to be judged once the seventh trumpet sounds and that is described in Revelation 20:11-15 as occurring AFTER the thousand years. You are not paying attention to the details here.

I read Rev 11:15-19 again. I note that it is the 24 Elders who say; Now is the time.........
However, Revelation 12 goes on to say; After that......... all about Satan being cast down and the 2 groups of the Christian peoples. Then we are told abot the 42 months of world Satanic control. Rev 13
Then comes the Seven Bowls and with them the wrath of God is competed. Revelation 15:1, and the Sixth & Seventh Bowl is about Armageddon, which takes place when Jesus Returns.

So; the Seventh Trumpet is not and cannot be the Last Trumpet. That will be blown to raise all the dead for Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.

Spiritual Jew · Tuesday at 5:54 PM

keras said:
I read Rev 11:15-19 again. I note that it is the 24 Elders who say; Now is the time.........
However, Revelation 12 goes on to say; After that......... all about Satan being cast down and the 2 groups of the Christian peoples.

Christ's resurrection and ascension is mentioned in Revelation 12:5, so you can't claim that Revelation 12 picks up where the end of Revelation 11 left off. You do not understand how the book of Revelation is structured and that's why you misinterpret almost the entire book, as all futurists do. Having such a narrow scope for the book and missing the parallels in the book is a problem for preterists, also.

Douggg · Tuesday at 8:08 PM

Aussie52 said:
The 'meet' in 1 Thes 4:15 is apantesis in the Greek. The word has reference to civic officials going out to meet a VIP and returning with him to the city.
This means that Christ meets His people in the air and they then return to earth with Christ. 1 Thes 4 is speaking of a post-tribulation coming of Christ as does Mt 24.

In Revelation 19, the bride of Christ comes with Jesus from heaven. So the saints who make up the bride of Christ must be in heaven before Jesus returns. They will be in heaven as a result of the resurrection/rapture event.

Aussie52 · Tuesday at 8:42 PM

Douggg said:
In Revelation 19, the bride of Christ comes with Jesus from heaven. So the saints who make up the bride of Christ must be in heaven before Jesus returns. They will be in heaven as a result of the resurrection/rapture event.

View attachment 381177

You have avoided answering my comments on the word 'meet'-apantesis.

Douggg · Tuesday at 10:00 PM

Aussie52 said:
You have avoided answering my comments on the word 'meet'-apantesis.

Anyone can google the word and see it means meeting.

Aussie52 · Tuesday at 10:30 PM

Douggg said:
Anyone can google the word and see it means meeting.

It means more than meeting. As I mentioned before, it pictures city officials going out to meet a VIP and accompanying them back to the city.
Likewise, 1 Thes 4 is Christ's coming in glory, resurrecting and rapturing His saints and returning to earth to establish His Kingdom.

Douggg · Tuesday at 11:40 PM

Aussie52 said:
It means more than meeting. As I mentioned before, it pictures city officials going out to meet a VIP and accompanying them back to the city.
Likewise, 1 Thes 4 is Christ's coming in glory, resurrecting and rapturing His saints and returning to earth to establish His Kingdom.

You are taking one example of the use of the word apantesis and projecting (incorrectly) the resurrection/rapture event to take place on the day of Jesus's return.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18, it does not describe Christ's return to earth in glory. Also in those verses, it does not describe Christ coming with the armies of heaven like in Revelation 19:14.

Douggg · Tuesday at 11:47 PM

keras said:
I read Rev 11:15-19 again. I note that it is the 24 Elders who say; Now is the time.........
However, Revelation 12 goes on to say; After that......... all about Satan being cast down and the 2 groups of the Christian peoples. Then we are told abot the 42 months of world Satanic control.

The sounding of the 7th angel announce the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth. The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth will be Satan cast down to earth having great wrath knowing that his time is short, Revelation 12:12.

His short time left will be the time, times, half time of Revelation 12:14. (keras, what you should do is that every time I post a chart, you should print out a copy and put it in a folder. Collect the charts and put them in that folder, so you can better understand what is going to happen.)

Douggg · Wednesday at 2:06 AM

keras said:
Contradicting yourself?
That is what happens when people try to fit their fanciful beliefs into the Prophetic Word.

keras, I was referring to what @Aussie52 believes, not me.

"the resurrection/rapture event to take place on the day of Jesus's return. "

JulieB67 · Wednesday at 3:00 AM

Douggg said:
the bride of Christ comes with Jesus from heaven

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

So the saints who make up the bride of Christ must be in heaven

Verse 14 shows that he will bring with him those that have passed on in him. Those that remain and are alive will be caught up together to "meet" him. There are no scriptures to state anyone is whisked away suddenly, etc.

We have to let the scriptures speak for themselves.

Using the term "rapture" incorrectly

Well-Known Member

Wesleyan-Arminian.

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Wesleyan-Arminian.

Well-Known Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Amillennialist

Amillennialist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Amillennialist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Wesleyan-Arminian.

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Wesleyan-Arminian.

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

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