Are Freewill & Predestination Compatible?

th1bill said:

As I understand the concept, Yahweh created this Time/Space Continuum and that places Him outside our Timeline in order to create the Universe. In Isa 46:10 we learn that He knows the end from the beginning.

In Gal 5:13 we learn thar we, the Created Beings have self determination. Does Yahweh's Predetermination come in conflict with our Free Will? Actually, no!

Metaphores never work perfectly but consider a 4 hour saga on film and the public has never seen, even the clips yet. Even the actors are not certain
of the content because they were not present for the editing and composition.

The editor, creator of the product, knows the beginning from the end, and he directed, not a single frame of his work.

I can not explain the mechanism Yahweh used, some six thousand years ago to create us and all that we see... I might find time to ask Him when I go Home, I'll have time to listen then.

But the short of it all is, God knew that a young Atheist would find his friend blown to pieces in the middle of the night and having no one to curse he would curse the being he did not believe in and hearing that God speak to his spiritual heart and wet upon a 23 year search for the identity of God.

Did God force me to change and seekusand after Him, no. Did He know six thousand years or so ago that I would do so, yes. Can I explain this... nope but, by faith I accept it.

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It is not compatible when considering "double predestination " , that all are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation.
When speaking of predestination and its compatibility with free will, we should consider Paul’s use of "foreknowledge".
This aligns best when comparing scripture with scripture and his semantic foundation.

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son."

Be blessed.

th1bill said:

I had hoped that the double predestination would be avoided because Yehovah God must be cruel and caprecious if that is true and, He is not. The only thing double predestination is good for is for causing a barroom brawl. I quit drinking, entertaining, snorting drugs,,, chasing women and brawling in the parking lot the day I took Yashuah for my Lord. So, I regret telling you this but in this string I refuse to fight over the known good nature o fYehovah. I love Him because He loved me when I was unlovable.


Shalom

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Curious how you can address one without the other. That's fine.
Be blessed.

If one considers predestination the establishment of a category that people can enter, then free will and determinism can coexist. If you consider determinism and election to be the micromanagement of people then it can't.

I think a combination of the two is the most reasonable answer. We have varying degrees of freedom depending on context. As long as true randomness exists, an idea supported by quantum mechanics, determinism is false. And as our freedom has limits our will isn't entirely free. We can choose, but some choices will face more resistance than others.

Freewill and predestination are only black and white if we define them as such. Philosophical abstractions that exist apart from base reality.

Freewill is impossible if a supernatural being knows our thoughts and actions in advance, because it means they are all predetermined.

Is knowing the same as controlling, preventing, or acting?

The world of man outside the Garden, thanks to our self-serving nature, is predestined to fail; but free will allows us to change from self-adoration to instead following the Will of God that leads this world away from death.

th1bill said:

As I understand the concept, Yahweh created this Time/Space Continuum and that places Him outside our Timeline in order to create the Universe. In Isa 46:10 we learn that He knows the end from the beginning.

In Gal 5:13 we learn thar we, the Created Beings have self determination. Does Yahweh's Predetermination come in conflict with our Free Will? Actually, no!

Metaphores never work perfectly but consider a 4 hour saga on film and the public has never seen, even the clips yet. Even the actors are not certain
of the content because they were not present for the editing and composition.

The editor, creator of the product, knows the beginning from the end, and he directed, not a single frame of his work.

I can not explain the mechanism Yahweh used, some six thousand years ago to create us and all that we see... I might find time to ask Him when I go Home, I'll have time to listen then.

But the short of it all is, God knew that a young Atheist would find his friend blown to pieces in the middle of the night and having no one to curse he would curse the being he did not believe in and hearing that God speak to his spiritual heart and wet upon a 23 year search for the identity of God.

Did God force me to change and seekusand after Him, no. Did He know six thousand years or so ago that I would do so, yes. Can I explain this... nope but, by faith I accept it.

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I would say the first question that must be asked from each person, for clarity, is what are we claiming that our wills are free from? Free from coercion? That's what most people mean by it. What does being a slave to sin really mean?

My short answer: Everything we do is tainted with sin and thus, not good and will never meet God's standards of righteousness. In other words, we are unable to please God, or save ourselves. It's doesn't mean that we cannot save a drowning person, or tell someone that they dropped their wallet. It doesn't even mean that we cannot desire to do good. Only the Spirit of God can bear good fruit. I don't believe that we need a perfect faith to receive the Spirit of God, and thus the life from that Spirit. I think we only need a desire for the Gospel and the promises from Him (Romans 7:18). Desire for good.

This is the way that I see God's sovereignty. The term 'ordain' is what I would call an umbrella word which encompasses God's complete sovereignty over all that He providentially governs. Under the term "ordained", we have both 'predestine', and 'positively allowed' (not predestined). He ordains everything, He positively causes all that is predestined, and He positively allows (doesn't cause) all the rest. What is called 'predestined' and what is 'positively allowed' (not predestined) are both together ordained and decreed from the foundations of the world and are governed by the council of God's will. The point being, that God doesn't need to positively cause something to be sovereign over it. God ordained the day that we were born, and the day we will die. Think about that. The "Positively allowing" part, think of it like a domino effect. Knowing the effect of every cause, He doesn't need to actively cause everything. He can set boundaries, He can remove boundaries, He can be an initial cause and let the rest take it's natural course of action knowing the end result. By saying allowing, I'm not speaking of what is called "bare permission". God can decree something from the foundations of the world, ordain it, providentially govern it in time, and not predestine it.

Why did I say all that? Because I don't believe that people were predestined to believe from the foundation of the World. The only people who were predestined to believe in the Bible, me thinks, were true OT believers who were predestined to be true NT believers. The Father gave them to the Son. These are the sheep. I did a thread on this.


I don't think that what God positively causes (Predestines) is in contrast with man's ability to desire to be saved.

Dave

Free will = choice.
Choice = following our own will or the will of God.
Our will is self-serving often at gain at the unwilling expense of others.
God's will is that we act in servitude to both Him and each other, all others.
Creativity is based on choice and we can be of no use to God if we are not creative as was required of Adam.
What we create however can be based on our will or God's and others can derive from it based on their own choices of how to comprehend.
It is complicated yet simple and all boils down to two choices.
We either freely follow God or we follow ourselves.
That choice has always been ours by free will and we self-determine our outcome.
One is eternal while the other is short lived.
God measures our worth by our actions rather than using the whip trying to make use of all.
God too has choice.

timothyu said:

Free will = choice.
Choice = following our own will or the will of God.
Our will is self-serving often at gain at the unwilling expense of others.
God's will is that we act in servitude to both Him and each other, all others.
Creativity is based on choice and we can be of no use to God if we are not creative as was required of Adam.
What we create however can be based on our will or God's and others can derive from it based on their own choices of how to comprehend.
It is complicated yet simple and all boils down to two choices.
We either freely follow God or we follow ourselves.
That choice has always been ours by free will and we self-determine our outcome.
One is eternal while the other is short lived.
God measures our worth by our actions rather than using the whip trying to make use of all.
God too has choice.

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Nope. The just will live by faith. Faith dissolves the delusion of choice between God and sin. Free will = free from sin ->

Romans 6:17
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Romans 6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


1 Corinthians 1:25-31.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

childeye 2 said:

The just will live by faith.

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They have to choose that in the first place. It's not like they have no choice. They are not God's little robots.

timothyu said:

They have to choose that in the first place. It's not like they have no choice. They are not God's little robots.

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Any choice between the truth and a lie is redundant because it treats them as if they are equal things. The moment we think of God as an option, we’ve already replaced Him with a false image — and that changes the meaning of both “God” and “faith.”

To show what I mean, here’s a simple example of objective vs. subjective language:


Person 1: Do you believe in God?
Person 2: What do you mean by believe?
Person 1: I mean, do you believe God exists?
Person 2: The term God refers to the Source of all things. If the Source didn’t exist, neither would we. Maybe you’re talking about an image of God.
Person 1: Of what faith are you?
Person 2: Since there is one Source, there is only one faith.
Person 1: So you have the only true faith?

The point is simple:​

• God, as the Eternal Source, is objective.
• Creature Images of God are subjective.
• Only a subjective image can be chosen.
• So the moment God becomes something we “choose,” we are no longer talking about God — we are talking about an image.

That’s exactly what Romans 1 describes:

“They did not glorify Him AS GOD… and exchanged the image…” “Who changed the truth of God into a lie.”

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Choice appears only after the image is exchanged.

Faith is recognizing the Source as the Source — esteeming God as God. Choice is what happens when the Source has already been replaced by an image.

And here’s the linguistic principle behind it:​

In pragmatics, you can’t reason symmetrically inside a dichotomy that is defined by its asymmetry. Truth is a presence; a lie is a deviation of it. So any “choice” between the truth and a lie is redundant — the moment you treat them as interchangeable options, you collapse the meaning of truth itself.

childeye 2 said:

The moment we think of God as an option, we’ve already replaced Him with a false image

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The option is called self-interest

timothyu said:

The option is called self-interest

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Objectively speaking, deceived people are denying their selves and their own best interests. The deceived self thinks it is a chooser of faith or unfaith because it doesn’t realize that faith comes through revelation. The prodigal didn’t choose God — he ‘came to himself’ through a realization. Only then could he resolve to return.

Come on, don’t leave me hanging, did you get the point I’m making about how turning God into a choice already replaces Him with a false image, or did that part not land?

Obviously a revelation or to put it simply, a wakeup call must occur before a choice. After all, God says we must continually seek the Kingdom so epiphanies will be expected along the way as we find new pieces of the puzzle.. We then choose how to use them. We become aware of God but the choice whether to follow or not may be replacing Him with a false image and that image is us. He is still there, but it only means we most often choose to Ignore Him to follow ourselves instead. Turn on the news.

timothyu said:

Obviously a revelation or to put it simply, a wakeup call must occur before a choice. After all, God says we must continually seek the Kingdom so epiphanies will be expected along the way as we find new pieces of the puzzle.. We then choose how to use them. We become aware of God but the choice whether to follow or not may be replacing Him with a false image and that image is us. He is still there, but it only means we most often choose to Ignore Him to follow ourselves instead. Turn on the news.

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I think we’re still missing each other. I’m not denying that the prodigal had thoughts, reflections, or a moment of clarity. What I’m saying is that his “deliberation” was not a choice between God and self — it was the collapse of a false imagination.

The text says he “came to himself.” That’s not choosing the Father; that’s waking up to reality that the Father was always trustworthy. His imagination dissolved, and reality reasserted itself. Only then did his will move, not by selecting between options, but by responding to what was already true.

This is why I’m saying that treating God as a choice already replaces Him with a false image. The true God is not an option among options. Only an image of God can be chosen. The prodigal didn’t choose God — he recognized reality after his illusion failed.

And I hear you about the news — we’re watching the course of vanity in the creature. But that’s exactly the point: people aren’t “choosing” against God in some neutral marketplace of ideas. Their imaginations are collapsing under the weight of reality, and they’re clinging to the false images they’ve made.

childeye 2 said:

Their imaginations are collapsing under the weight of reality, and they’re clinging to the false images they’ve made.

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This be true, but that's their choice.

timothyu said:

This be true, but that's their choice.

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The Prodigal Son didn't negotiate a behavior modification plan in the pig pen.