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Holiness Heresy.

David1701

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Thank you, sir, for a very thoughtful reply to my reply; it is such a relief to find someone willing to engage in genuine dialogue with interesting and edifying responses! I suspect you and I will enjoy a great friendship on CF.com and will enjoy exploring many interesting subjects! For my part I agree with most of your reply.
I'm theologically quite far removed from E.O., so I was surprised to find myself agreeing with so much of your post. The heart matters more than the head...


In defense of Wesley, Theosis is a very difficult word to translate, and I can’t think of any way of translating it that doesn’t risk pride, which is why catechism is so essential. (although I would note there are many holier-than-thou ostensible Christians in denominations which do not believe in Theosis but reject the idea altogether; in any case where we talk about deliverance from sin there will be those who regard this as something to boast of rather than somethingt to receive with humble gratitude. Now regarding the difficulties of the translation specifically, here is a very deep dive: Theosis is a complete movement towards holiness, facilitated through cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit; it is not something we do ourselves and can boast of. Thus, “entire sanctification” is an easy to understand translation of the concept; the word Theosis could literally be translated as “deification” but this causes a more extreme confusion, since we Orthodox do not believe that Theosis makes one part of the uncreated and omnipotent Godhood, joining the Holy Trinity (that would be apotheosis). Rather we believe that by faith, through cooperation with the Holy SPirit, if we receive the sacraments and struggle against the passions, the Holy Spirit will help us, over time, to become by grace what Christ is by nature, that is to say, inheriting eternal life and being free from all sin. Theosis does not translate well into English because there is only one extant word with a roughly similar meaning, deification, which more accurately translates to apotheosis, which refers to a human becoming a deity without qualification - which Roman Pagans believed happend to Julius Caesar, Caesar Augustus and certain other Roman heroes (Scipio Africanus comes to mind, and Trajan “the Optimate”). Likewise, the Pagan Greeks believed this regarding Alexander the Great, among others, and the Egyptians had the idea regarding Pharoah. Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick, an Orthodox priest, argued in Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy that the insight of the ancient Egyptians that there could be a God-man or theanthropos was correct, in that God became incarnate with the birth of Jesus Christ, but the identification was incorrect - in otherwords, the idea being that apotheosis existed as a cultural concept due to the expectation that God would come in the flesh, which we also see in the ancient Jewish beliefs concerning the Messiah, specifically where St. Isaiah the Prophet described how a virgin would conceive (not a young woman, as Rabinnical Jews argue) who would be called Emanuel, which means “God with us,” which has been reinterpretad by Reform Judaism akong with the idea of the Messiah as referring to the Jewish people collectively, an idea rejected by the Conservative and Orthodox branches of Rabinnical Judaism and by the Karaite Jews.
As a translation of Theosis, what about "becoming godly (or Christlike) by grace"?

At any rate, there does exist a problem conveying the idea of Theosis into English, or even translating what St. Athanasius wrote in “On the Incarnation”, that God became man so that man could become god, becoming by grace what Christ is by nature, without some people becoming distressed over a perceived but incorrect implication that this means receiving divine omnipotence and other powers reserved to the Holy Trinity or becoming entirely perfect, or worthy of actual worship (which is not acceptable in the case of someone who has been “godified” to use one very clunky translation of Theosis, or “entirely sanctified to use Wesley’s much better translation, since the glorified man is still a creature and remains subordinate to Ood the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and thus it is improper to offer worship or adoration to a human. Veneration is allowed in Orthodoxy, but to be clear, veneration is understood as being the same love we show to our living relatives; it is not meant to be adoration or worship, which is idolatry whether the person is alive or dead, entirely sanctified or entirely reprobate.
Sanctification carries a somewhat different nuance from becoming Christlike, although that would certainly be an effect of it. Being set apart for God focuses more on a positional aspect than a state of being. (I hope this comes across well, because I'm finding it quite hard to put into words what I grasp intuitively.)


On this point, I agree with you entirely. The Orthodox do not believe it is a sudden experience, but that Theosis takes time, and is destroyed by pride, and the Orthodox faith stresses humility, and warns of the danger of becoming proud even of one’s own humiliation, which sounds like a paradox but is actually a real danger. Every Orthodox, and every pre-schism (pre-Scholastic Roman Catholic) Patristic text on mystical theology, asceticism and theosis, warns of this, including The Ladder of Divine Ascent, and stresses the need for humility, and we even have an icon in Orthodoxy called “Extreme humility” showing Christ descending into the tomb, and the prayer of St. Ephraim the Syrian:

O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power, and idle talk.

But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love to Thy servant.

Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own transgressions, and not to judge my brother, for blessed art Thou, unto ages of ages. Amen.

Prayers such as these have the effect of making most Orthodox Christians fearful of pride. In the case of Roman Catholicism, in all fairness to them, they also continued to emphasize humility after the schism, indeed, St. Francis of Assisi engaged in elaborate displays of repentance and humiliation (on the other hand, his declaration before death that he had confessed all sins and repented of all sins is not familiar to the experience of Orthodox Christians; while we are not by any means denying his salvation, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Christians are instead taught about Abba Sisoes, a Coptic Christian and one of the Desert Fathers, who, on his death bed, was observed by the other brethren to be praying. When asked what he was praying for, he declared “I am asking for more time to repent,” to which he was told, “Surely, you have no need to repent, you are holy,” to which Abba Sisoes said “Surely I have not even begun to repent!” Then his eyes lit up and he declared “My savior has arrived!” and reposed. Thus, this is exemplary for the Orthodox.
Why do E.O.s (and R.C.s for that matter) focus so much on the E.C.F.s? I agree that there is value in what Christians have taught (including what you've posted above), throughout the ages, but I focus far more on the Bible directly.

Now, regarding John Wesley, regarding his case, in his defense, it doesn’t seem to me like he regarded entire sanctification as an instant process, but later Methodists, Wesleyans and Holiness movement people did regard it as instantaneous. I believe the confusion stems from his experience in a Moravian chapel in Aldgate in the City of London, where, while listening to a homily on St. Paul’s letter to the Romans, Wesley felt a great sense of forgiveness and peace. However, that appears to have been a moment of deliverance from dangerous despair over salvation, rather than the attainment of sanctification in its entirety, which, to my knowledge, John Wesley did not claim to have received during his life (if he did make such a claim I would say he was in prelest).
It's possible that later Wesleyans, et al, brought in the instantaneous aspect (I don't know).

John Wesley was very doctrinally careful, and indeed edited the hymns written by his brother Charles to ensure their doctrinal correctness, so I would be unpleasantly surprised if he declared himself to have experienced complete sanctification in one pass.
I have some serious disagreements with the Wesleys, on a few issues; but, I do like several of Charles Wesley's hymns.

I would also note that the liturgical Methodism Wesley was advocating would have produced results similar to Eastern Orthodoxy, since the Book of Common Prayer also stresses the importance of humility to a great extent, and John Wesley strongly favored its use. And Wesley’s version of the Book of Common Prayer preserves this extreme focus on humility and what Wesley called “rational piety”, for instance, in the Congregational Confession from Morning and Evening Prayer:

A general Confession, to be said by the whole Congregation, after the Minister, all kneeling.
Almighty and most merciful Father, We have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep. We have followed too much the devices and desires of our own hearts. We have offended against thy holy laws. We have left undone those things which we ought to have done; And we have done those things which we ought not to have done; And there is no health in us. But thou, O Lord, have mercy upon us, miserable offenders. Spare thou them, O God, which confess their faults. Restore thou them that are penitent; According to thy promises declared unto mankind in Christ Jesus our Lord. And grant, O most merciful Father, for his sake, That we may hereafter live a godly, righteous, and sober life; To the glory of thy holy Name. Amen.

Then the Minister shall say,
O Lord, we beseech thee, absolve thy people from their offences; that, through thy bountiful goodness, we may be delivered from the bands of those sins, which by our frailty we have committed. Grant this, O heavenly Father, for Jesus Christ’s sake, our blessed Lord and Saviour.

The only difference between this and the 1662 Anglican BCP is that the 1662 BCP (and Episcopalian BCPs) have different versions of the prayer of absolution depending on whether the minister is a bishop or presbyer, like Wesley, or whether they were a lay minister or deacon, since Anglican doctrine is that bishops and presbyers are responsible for pronouncing absolution over sinners who confess such as with the aforementioned prayer as per Matthew 16:18, whereas I believe Wesley did not regard ordination as a prerequisite for pronouncing absolution, one of the few respects which differs him from high church Anglicans and Anglo Catholics - he is ultra high church in some respects, such as wanting congregations to partake of the Eucharist weekly, and very low church in other respects, such as not regarding ordination as necessary for this (he did regard it as necessary however for the celebration of Holy Communion).

At any rate, if the Holiness Churches were using the liturgy Wesley intended, along with fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays and on those days praying the Great Litany from Wesley’s recension of the Book of Common Prayer, which like the Anglican version, is extremely penitential*, I would argue that the pride you correctly warn about and the idea of theosis as an instant process would have been avoided.

* I would post it here except it is called “great” for a reason, even with the abbreviations Wesley made it would still be a 15 minute office if said in a normal speaking voice while the congregation knelt - if chanted in the form of procession as is often done, particularly by high church Anglicans, it would take much longer.
I'm not liturgical at all, which is not to say that I disagree with all the content (much of it is very good); but, I believe that it's important to be flexible in services, so as not to replace life with form.
 
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Hawkins

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Faith and repentance are for the assessment of a human to see if he's correctable or not, after all sinned to their death. If one is correctable he can be holy in the end to see the Lord, especially after granted a new body/spirit.
 
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Cal_

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Here is a definition from the Church of the Nazarene web site:
We believe entire sanctification is that act of God,...
It is wrought by the baptism or filling of the Holy Spirit ....
Entire sanctification is provided by the blood of Jesus, ...by grace through faith,...and to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness'.
He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all...
After He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified.
But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us...
“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”
I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” Hebrews 10:9-17
* Some believe that they are positionally 'Holy in Christ', and that is all that matters.
For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all of one Father... Hebrews 2:11
*Closely aligned with this is the doctrine of imputed righteousness so popular today. Believing they are 'covered in the righteousness of Christ', that God views them through who Jesus is, this can easily become an impediment to practical holy living.

God has called the Church to a holiness, 'without which no one will see the Lord'. Heb 12:14.
Who gave Himself for us, to redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own people, zealous for good works. Titus 2:14
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own own people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 1 Peter 2:9-10
 
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Aussie52

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He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all...
After He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified.
But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us...
“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”
I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” Hebrews 10:9-17

For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all of one Father... Hebrews 2:11

Who gave Himself for us, to redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own people, zealous for good works. Titus 2:14
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own own people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 1 Peter 2:9-10
Maybe you would like to make a comment instead of spewing out scriptues?
 
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A New Dawn

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Maybe you would like to make a comment instead of spewing out scriptues?
I find it jarring that you don’t like to use scripture to support your beliefs, like we should just take your word for all this, and that you use such harsh words against those who do.

I myself find this type of belief ‘elitest’. Or gnostic. Like you have to be somebody special to be part of it, something God doesn’t give to just any believer that HE has already worked a miracle on. I used to be a part of a cult that used this same technique. The church had turned away from God and had to be restored, and only WE had the true gospel.
 
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Aussie52

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I find it jarring that you don’t like to use scripture to support your beliefs, like we should just take your word for all this, and that you use such harsh words against those who do.

I myself find this type of belief ‘elitest’. Or gnostic. Like you have to be somebody special to be part of it, something God doesn’t give to just any believer that HE has already worked a miracle on. I used to be a part of a cult that used this same technique. The church had turned away from God and had to be restored, and only WE had the true gospel.
I don't practice 'proof texting', that's what the Jehovah Witnesses do. With proof texting you can prove almost anything. Truth is found by examining the whole of Scripture not just your convenient verses.
 
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Cal_

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Maybe you would like to make a comment instead of spewing out scriptues?
Anyone can spew out empty words, however, we're all set apart [sanctified] in Christ.

'...So that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:18
With proof texting you can prove almost anything. Truth is found by examining the whole of Scripture not just your convenient verses.
Whether it be convenient or not, your arguments ought to be based on Scripture, since there is no private interpretation.

And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation; 2 Peter 1:16-21
 
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The Liturgist

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Why do E.O.s (and R.C.s for that matter) focus so much on the E.C.F.s? I agree that there is value in what Christians have taught (including what you've posted above), throughout the ages, but I focus far more on the Bible directly.

Because we can trace a direct continuity from the Apostles to the Apostolic Fathers (who were the disciples of the Apostles and the early episokpoi) such as St. Clement, St. Ignatius of Antioch, to the second century fathers, St. Polycarp of Smyrna, St. Irenaeus of Lyons, to the third century fathers such as St. Cyprian of Carthage, Origen, St. Hippolytus, St. Gregory the Wonderworker, and then into the fourth century with the Nicene Fathers who defended the faith at Nicaea (St. Athanasius of Alexandria being the most noteworthy example given his role in combatting the denial of the deity of Christ by Arius and in propagating the Nicene creed and also his contribution to the canonization of Scripture* ) and their supporters (to name a few St. Ephraim the Syrian, St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory the Theologian, who presided over the Council of Constantinople which gave us the current 381 revision of the Nicene Creed which is part of the statement of faith for this site, St. John Chrysostom, St. Epiphanius of Cyprus, whose feast day this is on the Julian calendar), to the fifth century fathers who defended the faith at Ephesus against Nestorius (St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Celestine) and who ensured that the Pelagian heresy was suppressed (St. Augustine of Hippo, and more importantly from an Orthodox perspective, another Western theologian, St. John Cassian).

It is this continuity which is important, and it continues past that point. For example St. John of Damascus, who is venerated by Chalcedonians and surprisingly by Oriental Orthodox as well, despite being Chalcedonian, wrote an Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith which Catholics, liturgical Protestants such as Anglicans and Lutherans, and Orthodox Christians agree with, and which also corresponds with the earlier Patristic documents and ecumenical councils, and a directory of ancient heretical cults, and that work based on the fourth century dictionary of heresies written by St. Epiphanius of Cyprus, the Panarion, who in turn based his work on Against Heresies by St. Irenaeus of Lyons. So there is an extreme amount of continuity, the Patristic interpretation of Scripture is logically coherent, and the early Church Fathers were directly involved in the formulation of the creeds and the New Testament canon (particularly St. Athanasius).

However, we do not regard them as individually infallible or on the same level as Scripture.

I would also note that Roman Catholics believe the Patristic era ended with St. John of Damascus and after him came the Scholastics, but we Eastern Orthodox disagree, although we would agree that there is a sharp difference between Patristic and Scholastic theology and this difference started to become very noticeable at around the same time the Eastern Orthodox were excommunicated by the Roman Catholics and then invaded and subject to martyrdoms during the crusades.

Interestingly, the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia venerates St. Jan Hus and St. Jerome of Prague as martyrs, because while Protestants regard them as proto-Protestant, what they were trying to do (restore celebration of the liturgy in a language the Slavic people could understand; before Austria conquered the region the Orthodox churches there had used Church Slavonic, and restore lay reception of Holy Communion in both kinds; famously in the Roman Catholic Church laity did not receive the chalice from around the year 1,000, approximately (at the time the Roman church discontinued the use of the fistulum to communicate laity and restricted the chalice to the celebrating priest, and perhaps the deacon and subdeacon, I can’t recall if they received or not, until the liturgical reforms of the 1960s went into effect). Likewise Martin Luther was influenced by the existence of the Oriental Orthodox to break from Rome, and John Wesley was heavily influenced by Eastern Orthodoxy, to the extent of being secretly ordained a bishop in 1763 by Erasmus of Arcadia while remaining a presbyter in the Church of England. The Anglicans also had extensive contacts with the Orthodox and the Episcopalians in the US nearly entered into full communion with us, back when the Episcopal Church was regarded as extremely politically conservative, before a radical change in direction towards postmodern thoelogy took hold of every single Episcopalian seminary except Nashotah House in the 1960s, but the Bolshevik takeover in Russia thwarted that and caused the Eastern Orthodox in the US to become fragmented into numerous different groups on the basis of ethnicity, which, while mostly still canonically Eastern Orthodox, appeared to outsiders to be different denominations, so people, myself included, were unaware that Greek Orthodoxy and Serbian Orthodoxy and Russian Orthodoxy were the same thing (or with regards to the Oriental Orthodox, who I greatly love and am strongly attached to, that Coptic, Syriac, Armenian and Ethiopian Orthodoxy are the same thing).

At any rate, if you look at Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox theology, and that of the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East, there is continuity that persists past the ninth century and this is also the case with other major liturgical churches to varying extents, depending on their resistance to the influence of modernist and postmodernist theology.

One final aspect of the appeal of the early church fathers to us that cannot be overstated is martyrdom: a great many of the early church fathers who had enormous influence on the faith, including all major pre-Nicene fathers, were either martyrs or confessors (those who were tortured or otherwise grievously suffered for the faith), for example, St. Ignatius of Antioch, whose letters are a vital foundation of how the Orthodox and all other liturgical churches are organized, was fed to lions in the Coliseum. Likewise St. Justin Martyr was martyred, as his name implied, as were St. Polycarp of Smyrna, St. Irenaeus of Lyons, St. Clement of Rome, St. Hippolytus, St. Cyprian, and then when we get to the fourth century, to the Council of Nicaea itself, St. Alexander of Alexandria, who was the bishop who first deposed Arius for denying the Incarnation of Christ and Christ’s deity and the doctrine of the Trinity, was a confessor who had been tortured in the Diocletian persecution, and his protodeacon and successor St. Athanasius, who spoke so eloquently at that council, was viciously persecuted by the Arian successors of Emperor Constantine and this lasted until the death of Julian the Apostate, who had allowed him to return to Alexandria because Julian’s hatred for Christianity was profound, but Julian had apostasized from Arianism, and believed that releasing a Nicene Trinitarian bishop would stir up controversy, when instead what actually happened was the church of Alexandria united around St. Athanasius; the last Arian emperor, Valens, was more concerned with secular issues thankfully, and thus the large scale persecution of Trinitarians slowed down, but even though Arianism was nominally proscribed by Emperor Theodosius, the first Christian Emperor since Constantine and also the first definitely anti-Arian Emperor (Constantine’s court had come under the control of Arians towards the end of his life and he was baptized on his deathbed by an Arian bishop), St. Ambrose of Milan, another very important fourth century church father who also wrote a number of hymns which are loved by Lutherans and Anglicans and other Protestants (I recall recently discussing them with @ViaCrucis and @MarkRohfrietsch ) had to hold a vigil in one of his churches in Milan to prevent Theodosius from giving it over to the Arians to placate them.

Then the consort of the successor of Theodosius became offended when St. John Chrysostom objected to her having a commode made of solid gold when people in Constantinople were dying of hunger, and had him death-marched. Thus persecutions of the Orthodox continued. Nestorius violently persecuted those who disagreed with his attempt to separate the human person of Jesus Christ from the divine Logos, and St. Maximus the Confessor died after his tongue was cut out for objecting to the heresy of Monothelitism (which is interesting because the only bishop of Rome ever to be anathematized by an ecumenical council accepted by the Roman Catholic Church, Honorius I, was anathematized for promoting Monothelitism). Monothelitism was the final variant in one of a number of Christological heresies which in some manner attempted to confuse the deity and humanity of Christ and make his humanity incomplete.

*His 39th Paschal Encyclical is the oldest document to declare definitively as canonical our current 27 book canon, and by imposing it within his diocese and asking his brother bishops under his patriarchate in the Egyptian church to adopt it, this carried tremendous weight and ensured everyone else would adopt the 27 book canon; we very nearly wound up with a 22 book canon, lacking 2 Peter, Jude, 2 John, 3 John and Revelation, and those were the only books included in the East Syriac Peshitta; conversely there was a risk of spurious books being included, in particular, Laodiceans, which was translated by St. Jerome for the sake of completeness, but he did not regard it as legitimate, but it is also in some of the oldest Bibles, and of some Patristic works being classified as Apostolic canon erroneously such as the Shepherd of Hermas and 1 Clement, and St. Athanasius precluded that
 
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The Liturgist

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I'm not liturgical at all, which is not to say that I disagree with all the content (much of it is very good); but, I believe that it's important to be flexible in services, so as not to replace life with form.

Our Orthodox services are vibrant and full of life despite being extremely formal. The advantage of liturgy is that it ensures that the Gospel message is conveyed even if the pastor is not particularly good at preaching - by ensuring that the hymns, the creed and the prayers all communicate God’s plan for our salvation. Also, all of the traditional liturgies, whether the Book of Common Prayer or the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy or the Missale Romanum are comprised of scriptural quotations, and they are extremely ancient in most cases (the BCP being a rare exception). The Eastern Orthodox service for Holy Communion usually uses the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, an Anaphora or Eucharistic prayer that is a variant of the ancient Eucharistic liturgy used in Antioch, the oldest attestation of which appears in a textual variant form in the Apostolic Tradition, a book by St. Hippolytus, a martyred third century bishop. Our other main liturgy, the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil, is also extremely ancient, indeed it is older than St. John Chrysostom’s recension of the Antiochian Anaphora.

Regarding our other hymns, the most important are the Psalms and Canticles (songs other than Psalms taken from Scripture, such as the Song of Habakkuk or the Magnificat from the Gospel of St. Luke the Evangelist), but the other hymns we have mostly date from between the year 500 and 1,000, with some dating from the fourth century. These hymns are very different from most Protestant hymns other than the chorales of Luther and Wesley and a few other traditional hymn writers, in that they are extremely focused on conveying doctrine, as opposed to displaying emotion. Indeed the early church actually tried to avoid using music that was emotionally manipulative in its hymns; the Western church used monotony (actual montony, as in singing in one note only) until St. Ambrose of Milan introduced Greek-style polyphonic singing during the aforementioned vigil.

What happens when the text of the service is defined is that the vibrancy of the service shifts towards other dimensions. One can relax and focus more on prayer.

Since I myself specialize in the study of the liturgics and know the liturgical texts every which way its reached a point where I actually really enjoy attending services in Church Slavonic or Greek where possible (or Latin if I’m visiting a Roman church) because I know what is being said and can focus my attention on Christ.

This doubtless sounds very strange to someone unused to liturgical worship.

In my experience most Protestants who dislike liturgical worship have had an unpleasant experience with it either in a Protestant or Roman Catholic context.

I would also note a lot of ostensibly non-liturgical worship is actually liturgical or semi-liturgical, for example, Presbyterian, Baptist and Congregationalist churches will follow an order of worship even if the minister prays ex tempore. I will also say that ex temporaneous prayer and liturgical worship are not mutually exclusive, for instance, an Orthodox presbyter could pray extemporaneously during the homily or after the liturgy or at many other times; the fixed prayers provide a structure.

The only people who I know of who have totally avoided structure are the Quakers, with their Waiting Worship, and I think they rather threw the baby out with the bathwater (at first, I found the idea appealing, because I love worship that has an element of sacred silence, but it quickly became apparent that that was not Quaker worship per se, and additionally the Quakers have a number of other beliefs which are odd including in most cases a rejection of baptism and holy communion altogether, and a believe in a guiding “Inner Light” that is more authoritative in some Quaker meetings than Holy Scripture, and many Quakers have gone the Unitarian route of drifting away from Christ altogether. I believe the creedal, formal nature of Orthodox worship prevents us from losing our focus on Christ (likewise, this is the case with traditional Lutheran, Anglican and other liturgical worship; you might notice on the forum Lutheran members like @ViaCrucis and @MarkRohfrietsch and @Ain't Zwinglian get on extremely well with the Orthodox, and that’s a major reason why; we also happen to agree on the important issues of moral theology).
 
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As a translation of Theosis, what about "becoming godly (or Christlike) by grace"?

That would be correct as far as I’m concerned.
 
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Because we can trace a direct continuity from the Apostles to the Apostolic Fathers (who were the disciples of the Apostles and the early episokpoi) such as St. Clement, St. Ignatius of Antioch, to the second century fathers, St. Polycarp of Smyrna, St. Irenaeus of Lyons, to the third century fathers such as St. Cyprian of Carthage, Origen, St. Hippolytus, St. Gregory the Wonderworker, and then into the fourth century with the Nicene Fathers who defended the faith at Nicaea (St. Athanasius of Alexandria being the most noteworthy example given his role in combatting the denial of the deity of Christ by Arius and in propagating the Nicene creed and also his contribution to the canonization of Scripture* ) and their supporters (to name a few St. Ephraim the Syrian, St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory the Theologian, who presided over the Council of Constantinople which gave us the current 381 revision of the Nicene Creed which is part of the statement of faith for this site, St. John Chrysostom, St. Epiphanius of Cyprus, whose feast day this is on the Julian calendar), to the fifth century fathers who defended the faith at Ephesus against Nestorius (St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Celestine) and who ensured that the Pelagian heresy was suppressed (St. Augustine of Hippo, and more importantly from an Orthodox perspective, another Western theologian, St. John Cassian).

It is this continuity which is important, and it continues past that point. For example St. John of Damascus, who is venerated by Chalcedonians and surprisingly by Oriental Orthodox as well, despite being Chalcedonian, wrote an Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith which Catholics, liturgical Protestants such as Anglicans and Lutherans, and Orthodox Christians agree with, and which also corresponds with the earlier Patristic documents and ecumenical councils, and a directory of ancient heretical cults, and that work based on the fourth century dictionary of heresies written by St. Epiphanius of Cyprus, the Panarion, who in turn based his work on Against Heresies by St. Irenaeus of Lyons. So there is an extreme amount of continuity, the Patristic interpretation of Scripture is logically coherent, and the early Church Fathers were directly involved in the formulation of the creeds and the New Testament canon (particularly St. Athanasius).

However, we do not regard them as individually infallible or on the same level as Scripture.

I would also note that Roman Catholics believe the Patristic era ended with St. John of Damascus and after him came the Scholastics, but we Eastern Orthodox disagree, although we would agree that there is a sharp difference between Patristic and Scholastic theology and this difference started to become very noticeable at around the same time the Eastern Orthodox were excommunicated by the Roman Catholics and then invaded and subject to martyrdoms during the crusades.

Interestingly, the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia venerates St. Jan Hus and St. Jerome of Prague as martyrs, because while Protestants regard them as proto-Protestant, what they were trying to do (restore celebration of the liturgy in a language the Slavic people could understand; before Austria conquered the region the Orthodox churches there had used Church Slavonic, and restore lay reception of Holy Communion in both kinds; famously in the Roman Catholic Church laity did not receive the chalice from around the year 1,000, approximately (at the time the Roman church discontinued the use of the fistulum to communicate laity and restricted the chalice to the celebrating priest, and perhaps the deacon and subdeacon, I can’t recall if they received or not, until the liturgical reforms of the 1960s went into effect). Likewise Martin Luther was influenced by the existence of the Oriental Orthodox to break from Rome, and John Wesley was heavily influenced by Eastern Orthodoxy, to the extent of being secretly ordained a bishop in 1763 by Erasmus of Arcadia while remaining a presbyter in the Church of England. The Anglicans also had extensive contacts with the Orthodox and the Episcopalians in the US nearly entered into full communion with us, back when the Episcopal Church was regarded as extremely politically conservative, before a radical change in direction towards postmodern thoelogy took hold of every single Episcopalian seminary except Nashotah House in the 1960s, but the Bolshevik takeover in Russia thwarted that and caused the Eastern Orthodox in the US to become fragmented into numerous different groups on the basis of ethnicity, which, while mostly still canonically Eastern Orthodox, appeared to outsiders to be different denominations, so people, myself included, were unaware that Greek Orthodoxy and Serbian Orthodoxy and Russian Orthodoxy were the same thing (or with regards to the Oriental Orthodox, who I greatly love and am strongly attached to, that Coptic, Syriac, Armenian and Ethiopian Orthodoxy are the same thing).

At any rate, if you look at Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox theology, and that of the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East, there is continuity that persists past the ninth century and this is also the case with other major liturgical churches to varying extents, depending on their resistance to the influence of modernist and postmodernist theology.

One final aspect of the appeal of the early church fathers to us that cannot be overstated is martyrdom: a great many of the early church fathers who had enormous influence on the faith, including all major pre-Nicene fathers, were either martyrs or confessors (those who were tortured or otherwise grievously suffered for the faith), for example, St. Ignatius of Antioch, whose letters are a vital foundation of how the Orthodox and all other liturgical churches are organized, was fed to lions in the Coliseum. Likewise St. Justin Martyr was martyred, as his name implied, as were St. Polycarp of Smyrna, St. Irenaeus of Lyons, St. Clement of Rome, St. Hippolytus, St. Cyprian, and then when we get to the fourth century, to the Council of Nicaea itself, St. Alexander of Alexandria, who was the bishop who first deposed Arius for denying the Incarnation of Christ and Christ’s deity and the doctrine of the Trinity, was a confessor who had been tortured in the Diocletian persecution, and his protodeacon and successor St. Athanasius, who spoke so eloquently at that council, was viciously persecuted by the Arian successors of Emperor Constantine and this lasted until the death of Julian the Apostate, who had allowed him to return to Alexandria because Julian’s hatred for Christianity was profound, but Julian had apostasized from Arianism, and believed that releasing a Nicene Trinitarian bishop would stir up controversy, when instead what actually happened was the church of Alexandria united around St. Athanasius; the last Arian emperor, Valens, was more concerned with secular issues thankfully, and thus the large scale persecution of Trinitarians slowed down, but even though Arianism was nominally proscribed by Emperor Theodosius, the first Christian Emperor since Constantine and also the first definitely anti-Arian Emperor (Constantine’s court had come under the control of Arians towards the end of his life and he was baptized on his deathbed by an Arian bishop), St. Ambrose of Milan, another very important fourth century church father who also wrote a number of hymns which are loved by Lutherans and Anglicans and other Protestants (I recall recently discussing them with @ViaCrucis and @MarkRohfrietsch ) had to hold a vigil in one of his churches in Milan to prevent Theodosius from giving it over to the Arians to placate them.

Then the consort of the successor of Theodosius became offended when St. John Chrysostom objected to her having a commode made of solid gold when people in Constantinople were dying of hunger, and had him death-marched. Thus persecutions of the Orthodox continued. Nestorius violently persecuted those who disagreed with his attempt to separate the human person of Jesus Christ from the divine Logos, and St. Maximus the Confessor died after his tongue was cut out for objecting to the heresy of Monothelitism (which is interesting because the only bishop of Rome ever to be anathematized by an ecumenical council accepted by the Roman Catholic Church, Honorius I, was anathematized for promoting Monothelitism). Monothelitism was the final variant in one of a number of Christological heresies which in some manner attempted to confuse the deity and humanity of Christ and make his humanity incomplete.

*His 39th Paschal Encyclical is the oldest document to declare definitively as canonical our current 27 book canon, and by imposing it within his diocese and asking his brother bishops under his patriarchate in the Egyptian church to adopt it, this carried tremendous weight and ensured everyone else would adopt the 27 book canon; we very nearly wound up with a 22 book canon, lacking 2 Peter, Jude, 2 John, 3 John and Revelation, and those were the only books included in the East Syriac Peshitta; conversely there was a risk of spurious books being included, in particular, Laodiceans, which was translated by St. Jerome for the sake of completeness, but he did not regard it as legitimate, but it is also in some of the oldest Bibles, and of some Patristic works being classified as Apostolic canon erroneously such as the Shepherd of Hermas and 1 Clement, and St. Athanasius precluded that
You clearly know a great deal of church history; however, what I was really wondering was why E.O.s and R.C.s often seem to prefer to quote E.C.F.s, when the Bible covers the same subject, infallibly.
 
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Anyone can spew out empty words, however, we're all set apart [sanctified] in Christ.

'...So that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:18

Whether it be convenient or not, your arguments ought to be based on Scripture, since there is no private interpretation.

And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation; 2 Peter 1:16-21

The issue that @Jeff Carr is complaining about is the eisegetical use of texts out of context, also known as proof-texting, wherein one attempts to prove a doctrine by quoting one verse by itself outside of the context of the pericope that contains it.

I myself am prepared to defend the faith received from the Holy Apostles and the Fathers of the Orthodox Church with Scriptural references but I believe in this faith because those scriptural references align with other references and build scripture entirely as a whole.

As an example of eisegesis, a number of members of a certain Restorationist denomination tha tends to follow the interpretations of prophecy of a 19th century person from upstate New York, rather than the Protestant Reformers or the Early Church Fathers, like to argue against the use of Church Tradition by quoting Mark 7:13 out of context. However if we look at Mark 7 in context, it is specifically referring to the traditions of the Pharisees, which sought to create an Oral Torah as a barrier around the written Torah to preclude the possibility of violating the written Torah and in so doing managed to contradict the plain meaning of the Old Testament in many places, not unlike the denomination I am referring to contradicts the plain meaning of Scripture in many places; additionally in invoking Mark 7:13 in this way they are ignoring 1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 2:37, and Galatians 1:8-9 and these verses together with Matthew 16:18 also refute the overall Restorationist view of a Great Apostasy making all traditions of the Early CHurch unreliable, especially when we consider that the same churches they argue were apostate are responsible for the preservation of Scripture until the present, as well as the formulation of the 27 book New Testament Canon, the Nicene Creed, and other important things. Actually I should say “church” since the person they believe to be an infallible and inspired prophet does not appear to have been aware of the existence of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches or the Assyrian Church of the East and in a number of cases in debating with members of this denomination I’ve found that they take the false Restorationist vs. Catholic dichotomy to such an extreme that they will not admit to the existence of the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox or the Church of the East as independent churches but will rather insist we’re just Roman Catholics by another name, and with regards to Anglicans, Lutherans and liturgical Protestants regard them to still be under the control of the Pope. Obviously this is extremely offensive.

And when one presses them on this issue, which is an historical issue, and not one addressed by Scripture, they will demand scriptural verses, and also provide verses which they believe show that the Pope was the Beast referred to in Revelations for a certain number of years that have now come to an end and other things of that sort which have nothing to do with the issue as to whether or not the Eastern Orthodox Church is real or rather the figment of the imagination of 300 million Christians who were brutally persecuted for it by the Romans, Persians, Saracens, Tatars, Turks, by Roman Catholics and sometimes even Protestants in areas where all three denominations are present, even in the 20th century, and more recently, by the Ottoman Empire in 1915, by Communists in the 20th century and by Islamic extremists at present.
 
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You clearly know a great deal of church history; however, what I was really wondering was why E.O.s and R.C.s often seem to prefer to quote E.C.F.s, when the Bible covers the same subject, infallibly.

You have it a bit backwards. Christians who place a value on Patristics (which also include Lutherans, Anglicans and Calvinists, indeed the phrase consensus patrum is of Calvinist origin) and regard the interpretation of the Early Church Fathers as being meaningful look to the Early Church Fathers as a guide to interpreting Scripture. We are absolutely not quoting them in place of Scripture but rather as a guide to the correct interpretation of Scripture, or as a guide to what is Scripture, since it was the early church Fathers who curated the books of Scripture and eventually were forced by the proliferation of psuedepigrapha (books claiming to be by the Apostles that were written by heretics or well-meaning but misguided people) to define the New Testament canon, which was a slow process that started with the four Gospels being agreed upon definitely by the mid second century and then moved to the other books.
 
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David1701

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Our Orthodox services are vibrant and full of life despite being extremely formal. The advantage of liturgy is that it ensures that the Gospel message is conveyed even if the pastor is not particularly good at preaching - by ensuring that the hymns, the creed and the prayers all communicate God’s plan for our salvation.
Alright, that's a reasonable point.

Also, all of the traditional liturgies, whether the Book of Common Prayer or the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy or the Missale Romanum are comprised of scriptural quotations, and they are extremely ancient in most cases (the BCP being a rare exception). The Eastern Orthodox service for Holy Communion usually uses the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, an Anaphora or Eucharistic prayer that is a variant of the ancient Eucharistic liturgy used in Antioch, the oldest attestation of which appears in a textual variant form in the Apostolic Tradition, a book by St. Hippolytus, a martyred third century bishop. Our other main liturgy, the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil, is also extremely ancient, indeed it is older than St. John Chrysostom’s recension of the Antiochian Anaphora.
The question in my mind was: what happens if the Lord leads someone in the church meeting, to say something, or to sing a particular song, which is not a part of the normal service?

Regarding our other hymns, the most important are the Psalms and Canticles (songs other than Psalms taken from Scripture, such as the Song of Habakkuk or the Magnificat from the Gospel of St. Luke the Evangelist), but the other hymns we have mostly date from between the year 500 and 1,000, with some dating from the fourth century. These hymns are very different from most Protestant hymns other than the chorales of Luther and Wesley and a few other traditional hymn writers, in that they are extremely focused on conveying doctrine, as opposed to displaying emotion. Indeed the early church actually tried to avoid using music that was emotionally manipulative in its hymns; the Western church used monotony (actual montony, as in singing in one note only) until St. Ambrose of Milan introduced Greek-style polyphonic singing during the aforementioned vigil.
I like quite a few hymns that focus on doctrine myself; although, I don't think it's necessary to avoid emotion; the two can complement each other.

What happens when the text of the service is defined is that the vibrancy of the service shifts towards other dimensions. One can relax and focus more on prayer.
Indeed; but, spontaneity?

Since I myself specialize in the study of the liturgics and know the liturgical texts every which way its reached a point where I actually really enjoy attending services in Church Slavonic or Greek where possible (or Latin if I’m visiting a Roman church) because I know what is being said and can focus my attention on Christ.

This doubtless sounds very strange to someone unused to liturgical worship.
It's not my experience, but it doesn't sound strange to me.

In my experience most Protestants who dislike liturgical worship have had an unpleasant experience with it either in a Protestant or Roman Catholic context.
I've nothing against liturgy, per se (it could certainly be part of a godly service), as long as there is also room for the Lord to lead as he wishes (i.e. not a fully set service, with everything planned beforehand).

I would also note a lot of ostensibly non-liturgical worship is actually liturgical or semi-liturgical, for example, Presbyterian, Baptist and Congregationalist churches will follow an order of worship even if the minister prays ex tempore. I will also say that ex temporaneous prayer and liturgical worship are not mutually exclusive, for instance, an Orthodox presbyter could pray extemporaneously during the homily or after the liturgy or at many other times; the fixed prayers provide a structure.
The presbyter may pray extemporaneously, but what about people in the congregation generally?

The only people who I know of who have totally avoided structure are the Quakers, with their Waiting Worship, and I think they rather threw the baby out with the bathwater (at first, I found the idea appealing, because I love worship that has an element of sacred silence, but it quickly became apparent that that was not Quaker worship per se, and additionally the Quakers have a number of other beliefs which are odd including in most cases a rejection of baptism and holy communion altogether, and a believe in a guiding “Inner Light” that is more authoritative in some Quaker meetings than Holy Scripture, and many Quakers have gone the Unitarian route of drifting away from Christ altogether. I believe the creedal, formal nature of Orthodox worship prevents us from losing our focus on Christ (likewise, this is the case with traditional Lutheran, Anglican and other liturgical worship; you might notice on the forum Lutheran members like @ViaCrucis and @MarkRohfrietsch and @Ain't Zwinglian get on extremely well with the Orthodox, and that’s a major reason why; we also happen to agree on the important issues of moral theology).
The Quakers have gone to the opposite extreme. As is often the case, I think that a middle path is best (some structure, but also some room for flexibility; and I would certainly never put "inner light" equal to, never mind above, Holy Scripture; in fact, it would need to be tested by Holy Scripture).

My theology could probably be described as Reformed, Baptist, Charismatic (with caveats - I don't agree with some Charismatic doctrines and practices).
 
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David1701

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You have it a bit backwards. Christians who place a value on Patristics (which also include Lutherans, Anglicans and Calvinists, indeed the phrase consensus patrum is of Calvinist origin) and regard the interpretation of the Early Church Fathers as being meaningful look to the Early Church Fathers as a guide to interpreting Scripture. We are absolutely not quoting them in place of Scripture but rather as a guide to the correct interpretation of Scripture, or as a guide to what is Scripture, since it was the early church Fathers who curated the books of Scripture and eventually were forced by the proliferation of psuedepigrapha (books claiming to be by the Apostles that were written by heretics or well-meaning but misguided people) to define the New Testament canon, which was a slow process that started with the four Gospels being agreed upon definitely by the mid second century and then moved to the other books.
I don't reject the E.C.F.s (although they are all over the place re. doctrine, often disagreeing with each other, just as modern commentators do); and, they can certainly be helpful.

If I recall correctly, most of the N.T. canon had been widely agreed upon, by near the end of the 2nd C. A.D.; although, it's the usage of the believing assemblies that established the canon, rather than any "official" definition.
 
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RedLetterJoe

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Without looking up the passages, I recall that I am "being" sanctified. In other words, going through a process.
I also recall that Christ Himself is my Sanctifier as well as my Sanctification.

And again, without quoting the passage, I beg your pardon. I'm almost certain that it says in another place, that I have "been" sanctified, as in done deal. Pleas feel free to check me on that one.

So to me, I see it as a spiritual reality, and an earthly process, which seems consistent with how the Father does things.

Not to bring about another point of contention. But I think that "consecration" is often overlooked by the Body of Christ, and just as important. Any reasonable student of Gods word knows that entire sanctification is pure fantasy for all but a select few saints. And not because those saints were special or superior in any way, but because God had bestowed upon them a measure of grace well above the norm.

Bluntly, I have tried since knowing Christ, or rather being known by Him, to be the best person I could be, and for the right reasons, as best as I could tell. The results were all too brief seasons of exceptional obedience and faith, followed by far too long periods of spiritual mediocrity and moral compromise. A never ending cycle for most of three decades.

And then one day, hanging onto the end of a dangerously frayed rope, over an abyss which could not be plumbed, I let go.

Underneath, were the Everlasting Arms. They had been there all along, carrying me, whilst I thought myself running.

My Father loves me.
Jesus loves me, and calls me friend.
And the thought of Him overwhelms me, humbles me, and comforts me as much now, as it once terrified me afore time.

Perfect love casts out fear. I would also say that it eliminates any unnecessary and burdensome, unfruitful attempts at entire sanctification. And God forbid someone ever consider themselves as having achieved "entire sanctification". For the moment such a thought enters ones mind, they have tempted pride.

1{To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.} O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.

2Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

3Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

4For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

5Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
 
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Cal_

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The issue that @Jeff Carr is complaining about is the eisegetical use of texts out of context, also known as proof-texting, wherein one attempts to prove a doctrine by quoting one verse by itself outside of the context of the pericope that contains it.
In case you overlooked it, in post #23 it wasn't one isolated verse but several passages that attest that we're set apart in Christ.

To those sanctified, made holy to God in Christ Jesus, ...
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 1:2-3
I myself am prepared to defend the faith received from the Holy Apostles and the Fathers of the Orthodox Church with Scriptural references but I believe in this faith because those scriptural references align with other references and build scripture entirely as a whole.
But in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer for the hope that you have....keeping a clear conscience,...1 Peter 3:15-16
[Affirming what you believe] with a clear conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1 Peter 3:21
I speak the truth in Christ— as one who belongs to the Messiah, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit; Rom 9:1
 
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In case you overlooked it, in post #23 it wasn't one isolated verse but several passages that attest that we're set apart in Christ.

To those sanctified, made holy to God in Christ Jesus, ...
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 1:2-3

But in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer for the hope that you have....keeping a clear conscience,...1 Peter 3:15-16

For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of His Son; Rom 1:9
Your idea of 'imputed holiness' lacks scriptural support. Christ's holiness is 'imparted 'to us, not imputed or positional.
When a person becomes a Christian, they are 'initially sanctified', that is, set apart or dedicated to God. This is the meaning of the word saints.1 Cor 1:2. This is not actually being made holy or Christlike, the Corinthians are an example of this with their carnal living. From the time of conversion there is a 'progressive sanctification' where the believer gradually gains victory over acts of sin and exhibits the fruit of the Spirit. All this should lead up to the crisis of 'entire sanctification' 1Thes 5: 23. or baptism with the Holy Spirit Acts 15: 8,9 ,which deals with the source of sinning, inbred or indwelling sin. This is a cleansing of the heart from the 'sin principle' 1 Jn 1:7. crucifixion of the Old Man Rm 6:6, the body of sin done away with. Rm 6:6. This is what David prayed for when he asked for a 'clean heart' Ps 52. When Jesus said, Blessed are the pure in heart Mt 5:8 A clean heart is one without impurity, a pure heart is one without mixture or division. This all speaks of an inner cleansing or removal of original sin.
God then fills the heart with His perfect love 1 Jn 4:18, Rm 5:8, that we might love Him with all our being and our neighbors as ourselves. This is real holiness imparted to the soul, followed by a progressive growth in grace and Christlikeness that goes on throughout eternity.
This is biblical holiness or sanctification, not an imputed or positional holiness, that does make one holy.
 
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don't reject the E.C.F.s (although they are all over the place re. doctrine, often disagreeing with each other, just as modern commentators do); and, they can certainly be helpful.

On this point, actually, we have to make a clarification. Regarding the essentials of doctrine, that is to say, the issue of the first three ecumenical councils (and also the seventh), there is very little disagreement between the Early Church Fathers.

Specifically, I am aware of no early church fathers who denied the Trinity, the Incarnation of Christ, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist (the nature of that presence was not defined in detail as in, for example, trans-substantiation, but the real physical presence was asserted both in the liturgical texts and in the commentaries; some people like to argue Theodore of Mopsuestia, who is regarded as a church father by the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East and since Vatican II, some members of the East Syriac Rite churches of the Roman Catholic communion (specifically, some Chaldean Catholics and Syro Malabar Catholics), argued in favor of the real presence being merely spiritual, but having studied his writings on the subject; that is incorrect, rather, his views were a bit stranger, and he is a rare example of an early church father who tried to explain the Real Presence, but his explanation is radically different from Transubstantiation or Roman Catholic doctrine more generally, I won’t get into the details here); Theodore of Mopsuestia was anathematized in a process related to the Fifth Ecumenical Synod in Constantinople (the Second Council of Constantinople, in the early sixth century) along with Origen, who is an example of an early church father who is recognized as such but was widely disagreed with because of his belief in apokatastasis and his speculations on other doctrines which were extremely controversial and unusual; some legitimate early church fathers respected Origen, notably the Cappadocians (St. Basil the Great, his brother St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Gregory the Theologian), while not agreeing with some of his more unusual ideas, although St. Gregory of Nyssa is known for endorsing Apokatastasis (as well as St. Isaac the Syrian, a member of the Church of the East, which for a time taught apokatastasis, and was also before that under the influence of Nestorians, but no longer holds to it as doctrine, which in the 1960s split into the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East due to a controversy caused by the presiding bishop of that church at the time); the Church of the East is a common denominator in most areas where we have actual disagreements, but not because of any inherent heretical tendency on its part, rather, its much more complex and there were misunderstandings since unlike the West Syriac Christians, who tended to know Greek and were very able to communicate with the Greek speaking bishops who were at the center of the Christian oikumene, (due to the Bible being written in Greek and all seven ecumenical synods being conducted in Greek, and four out of the five ancient Patriarchates being in Greek cities, namely Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem and Constantinople), also all major Roman Christians wrote in Greek until Victor, the Bishop of Rome in the middle of the second century, had the Bible translated into Latin along with the liturgy of the Roman church, which effectively made Christianity accessible to less educated Roman Plebeians who had not attended a Rhaetor and learned at least the rudiments of the Hellenic tongue), the East Syriacs usually did not speak Greek and there were difficulties in communication.

Now starting in the fifth century we have an actual three-way rupture between the Nestorians, who managed to become predominant for a time in the Church of the East before that church adopted a Syriac interpretation of Chalcedon under Mar Babai the Great around 600 AD, the Oriental Orthodox, who accept the first three ecumenical synods and like Chalcedonians reject monophysitism, but are often falsely accused of it, and who also, like the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics, rejected iconoclasm (the Assyrians claim to reject it but their churches lack icons, so its a bit of an odd situation), and the Chalcedonians, which was the first lasting schism in the history of Christianity (the next one wouldn’t be until the Great Schism caused by Rome excommunicating the Eastern Orthodox in 1054 and invading the Byzantine Empire during the Crusades, killing many Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Christians, which created a resentment towards Rome which, combined with later acts of persecution, for example, in North America, the martyrdom of a 15 year old Native Alaskan boy, St. Peter the Aleut, who was a member of a fishing party who was captured by the Spanish when his party sailed into the San Francisco Bay and was found wearing an Orthodox cross; because St. Peter refused to renounce the Orthodox Church and convert to the Roman Catholic church his hands and feet were cut off and he received a crown of martyrdom).

Prior to that however, there was very little disagreement, and what disagreement existed, when it became important enough to actually matter dogmatically, was resolved by the ecumenical councils. Now on this point something important must be stressed - those who advocated for celebrating Pascha (the Feast of the Resurrection, also called Easter in some Germanic languages excluding Dutch) on the 14th of Nissan rather than using the Paschalion, the formula that remains in use to this day, albeit with only the Orthodox still using it with the Julian calendar, prior to the council of Nicaea, are not condemned for it, because (a) it was an accepted practice and (b) the reasons why Nicaea prohibited it were not a factor at the time prior discussions about it occurred in the second century. The same is the case with Chiliasm, which was excluded at Constantinople, but which was taught by St. Justin Martyr, St. Irenaeus of Lyons, and St. Papias.

Conversely, those who contradicted the Council of Nicaea regarding the deity of Christ before or after the council can be regarded as heretics, since before Nicaea the bishop Paul of Samosata was anathematized for doing this, so Nicaea was simply upholding an existing doctrine very clearly expressed in the New Testament text, which on the other hand does not provide a computus for calculating the date of Pascha.

So there were some disagreements, but there was not a proliferation of denominations at the present; rather, the Early Church Fathers made a point of avoiding anathematized persons, so one was either in communion, and part of the Early Church, or not in communion, and a schismatic or heretic, until the fifth century when schisms occurred following Ephesus and Chalcedon.

And regarding the schism at Ephesus, insofar as the Church of the East later rejected Nestorianism, while they alone continue to venerate Nestorius as a confessor of the faith (which is odd since he was never tortured, merely deposed and sent into a comfortable exile, where he wrote his memoirs with the pompous title, by standards of the time, of “The Bazaar of Heraclides” - compare this to the Confessions and Retractions of St. Augustine, for example, and one might sense why Nestorius is not well regarded by scholars of Patristics. Most early church fathers refrained from autobiography and some wrote anonymously, wrote under the names of Biblical personas (for example, psuedo-Dionysius) or hid from view to the point where we know little about them aside from their literary corpus. There are also the Desert Fathers and other ascetics many of whom are known only by the beautiful expressions of the Gospel they expressed which were written down, or by their actions or manner of living.

So it would be incorrect to say the Early Church Fathers are all over the place on matters of doctrine provided we limit ourselves to those who were not anathematized but were a part either of the Chalcedonian church before the schisms between Rome and the Orthodox began to get heated (really the Filioque Controversy is where things got real, but the final rupture did not occur until 1054, which according to Rome is after the Patristic period ended, which I would agree with if one is considering Western theologians only as there is a disconnect between the writings of the likes of Anselm of Canterbury and the Greek fathers or Syriac fathers or the Latin fathers of the second, third and fourth century) or the Oriental Orthodox Church, which agreed with the Chalcedonian church on all doctrinal matters except the question of whether to describe our Lord as being incarnate in two natures (the Chalcedonian view) or from two natures (the Oriental Orthodox miaphysite view), the problem being the debate got very heated with Chalcedonians confusing the Oriental Orthodox with the Monophysite sect led by Eutyches, which the Oriental Orthodox had anathematized, and the Oriental Orthodox fearing Nestorianism among the Chalcedonians; when this schism happened, Nestorius was still alive and fueled the fire by writing that Chalcedon expressed what he had been trying to say all along, which we know to be false since Chalcedon expressly affirmed the hypostatic unity of the divine and human natures, which St. Cyril had taught and Nestorius had rejected, and the use of the term Theotokos, rather than Christotokos as Nestorius insisted, and there was also a crypto-Nestorian who was active in the Chalcedonian church at the time, Ibas. For this reason as an Eastern Orthodox I am among those who rejoice by the fact that the EO-OO schism is on the verge of healing and get rather upset when I see neophytes being influenced by Old Calendarists who are not part of the canonical church calling the Oriental Orthodox “monophysites” and in some cases making remarks which are crypto-Nestorian.

Now I myself am a convert, but I wouldn’t have converted were it not for the fact that serious efforts to heal the schism had already been made and are still ongoing, because otherwise it would have been such an absurd issue for division to remain over during a period when both churches are suffering persecution at the hands of Islamic fundamentalists that it would have alienated me, but indeed, that was not the case; what actually made me decide to become Orthodox was the abduction of the Syriac Orthodox (Oriental Orthodox) and Antiochian Orthodox (Eastern Orthodox) bishops of Aleppo in 2013, whose whereabouts or vital status remains unknown 13 years later; they were the victims of a forced disappearance likely at the hands of Islamist extremists, but seeing the outpouring of love between the Syriac and Antiochian churches for each other in the face of such horrible persecution and the complete lack of recourse to ancient squabbles which had already been resolved on a theological level by ecumenical dialogue between the two churches (indeed since 1991 the two churches have had a sweeping ecumenical agreement in place, which is a template for how to reunify separated brethren in Christendom in my opinion) was so moving, and I was so alienated by what had happened in the Episcopal Church, which I was attending temporarily during the last year of my friend’s tenure as a priest, before his mandatory retirement, and in the United Church of Christ where I had been one of the few remaining conservatives, and in the United Methodist Church in which I was baptized, and the other mainline Protestant churches, and by this tendency for liturgical churches to shift to liberal theology and conservative churches to get rid of traditional liturgical worship in favor of contemporary worship with various forms of Christian rock music or “praise and worship” music with electric guitars, or guitars in general, and drumkits, and so on, replacing the organ and congregational singing, -

The beauty of the ancient Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches is that the conditions which caused the Protestant reformation in the West never occurred in the East, so most Eastern Christians are still a member of an Orthodox church, which is integral to their national or ethnic identity, and additionally, the few schisms that have happened have occurred over attempts to change the mode of worship, which Eastern Christians are extremely resistant to, to the point where the number of changes that have occurred to the liturgy over the years is very low and also well documented, and it is easy to reconstruct what worship was like before that change occurred, and also the cultural values of most Eastern Christians are extremely conservative; it is inconceivable that a canonical Orthodox church (Eastern or Oriental) would depart from the BIblical position on issues such as human sexuality in the manner of the mainline churches.
 
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In case you overlooked it, in post #23 it wasn't one isolated verse but several passages that attest that we're set apart in Christ.

To those sanctified, made holy to God in Christ Jesus, ...
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 1:2-3

But in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer for the hope that you have....keeping a clear conscience,...1 Peter 3:15-16
Having a clear conscience, affirming what you believe through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1 Peter 3:21
I speak the truth in Christ— as one who belongs to the Messiah, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit; Rom 9:1

I see you’ve quoted several passages there, the problem of course being that you’re not explaining your interpretation of them clearly; different people interpret Scripture differently, and so the verses you’re quoting to me might clearly express one thing to you, but might mean something completely different to me.

Please clarify the point you’re trying to make vis a vis my reply to you. If you’re trying to say you did not engage in eisegesis, that might well be the case; I was simply trying to explain what proof-texting is and why people object to it.

If on the other hand you’re trying to argue that we can only express doctrine through Scriptural quotations as opposed to explanatory statements that are based on Scripture, this is itself unscriptural according to a verse you yourself quoted 2 Peter 1:16-21
 
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