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NewLifeInChristJesus

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Eternal life begins in the here and now. Salvation is all about nearness to God. As we turn to Him in faith we are saved because we've now entered solidarity/alginment with Him and His perfect will; that's why Abraham was declared to be just; his faith was the opposite of Adam's lack of faith in God resulting in disobedience that meant alienation, disunion, from God. Justification is more than a legal or forensic matter of aquittal, IOW.

So that union is the purpose of faith; that's how faith saves. Jesus came to give us that faith, to reveal a God worth believing in-and so be reconciled with Him. And intrinsic to that nearness to God is righteousness, the triumph over and abandoment of sin and production of good fruit in general. While God is patient in our drawing near to Him, in our being perfected in love, if I'm sinning gravely I've already departed from Him, and therefore from salvation, from Life; I've died again; Adam's way has won out until and unless I truly have a change of heart and repent and confess all over again. While translation from death to life occurs now, in this life, ultimately God gives us His definitive verdict at the end of our lives.As I've stated before, "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love." Salvation is thus worked out with Him during this life.
This is convoluted. You don't think people have eternal life in the here and now because they sin (you said, "Because after all that I know that I still sin!-and that everyone else does as well-which reveals some level of distance from, not nearness to, God, to life-as both John and Paul MAKE CLEAR"). But you think etrnal life begins in the here and now because "we've now entered solidarity/alginment with Him and His perfect will". And this is marked by solidarity/alignment/union with God which is the opposite of Adam eating a piece of forbidden fruit in disobedience/faithlessness/disunion and created alienation.
If a person believes they can persist in grave sin because of the high price Jesus paid for sin- with no movement necessary in themselves towards the love that overcomes sin-then they've greatly misunderstood the gospel.
This is a red herring, a false flag, and a disinformation operation. It's a red herring because it falsely equates faith in Christ with wanting to persist in sin. It's a false flag because it only points to grave sins as being bad. It's disinformation because the gospel is not movement towards the love that overcomes sin.
 
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BNR32FAN

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“Walking in the Spirit” is something that is considered by God a permanent situation for those who are His. Even though believers still sin, they are termed walking in the Spirit because it’s what they always desire. Like Apostle Paul we never desire to sin, but we realize this is not possible, for the sin nature yet indwells.

Rom 7:14 – “For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.” I believe God allowed the sin nature, i.e. “old man” to indwell within the believer to continue to learn His holiness, and also continue to exercise faith in Christ’s expiation for our sin from its often guilt-accused approaches!

“Whereas, when Paul speaks of his unregenerate state, and how it was with him under the first convictions of sin, he speaks of them as things past, Romans 7:5; besides, several things which are said by the apostle can neither agree with him, nor any other, but as regenerate; such as to "hate evil," "delight in the law of God," and "serve it with the mind," Romans 7:15. Moreover, the distinctions between flesh and spirit, the inward and the outward man, and the struggle there is between them, are to be found in none but regenerate persons; and to say no more, the thanksgiving for deliverance from sin by Christ can only come from such.” -John Gill

Rom. 7:15 - “For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do (does not want to sin), that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do” (it’s not like Paul never practiced holiness but still sinned at times, same as any believer).

Rom. 7:16 – “If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good (another evidence that Paul did not want to sin).

Rom. 7:17 – “But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.” Believers “are not in the flesh,” i.e. not seeking after the sin nature, but after walking in the Spirit. The fact that believers desire to be after the Spirit releases them from guilt of the sin that “captivates” them, and are considered blameless.

Rom. 7:23 - “But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” Paul is admitting that the indwelling sin nature is causing him to sin. This sounds like bondage but it’s a “captivity” to the sin nature, because it is against the nature of a believer.

Hence, the believer is considered always walking in the Spirit. One either walks in the Spirit or in the flesh; you cannot do both. What we desire is always what the Father desires, because He “works this in you” (Phl 2:13).

-NC
I would disagree based on 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 combined with the beginning of chapter 3 where Paul tells the Corinthian believers that they are still carnal and walking like mere men. I think in Romans 7 Paul is describing the struggle with the two opposing natures between the flesh and the Spirit that every Christian faces. I think Romans 6:16 and Ephesians 4:30 also indicate that we do not always walk in the Spirit.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Hi NLIC! I think we should take note that it doesn't say "shall not do," because it's impossible for a believer to desire sin any more, but rather in fact to "hate evil" (Pro 8:13), not ever desire evil. Christians have not one evil they like but "eschews evil" (1Pe 3:11); which can be done only via the precious Holy Spirit! I believe He uses the new man in us to do what He does for us. Some think the new man might be the Lord Jesus but the new nature is a "creation" and not a deity (Col 3:10). This syncs with that the the Enemy uses the old man or sin nature to attempt to get at us, which is also an impossibility. He can only slow us, but never overcome us.

The "flesh" here refers only to the "old man." The sin nature is at total odds with the Spirit, which keeps us learning about God's holiness. It's not like a believer would willingly want to be in a sin. This being against our will is what Paul meant by "captive," against his will (Rom 7:23); he had to be "brought" into sin which was always against his will (Rom 7:23).
So what about David? God said that he was a man after His own heart, and yet he not only committed adultery by his own will but he had his friend Uriah, Bathsheba’s husband, killed so he could take her as his wife. Those were not involuntary sins my friend. So you have David who was not at enmity with God, but instead loved God, then he was tempted by lust and intentionally sinned, then repented and came back to God.
 
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fhansen

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This is convoluted. You don't think people have eternal life in the here and now because they sin (you said, "Because after all that I know that I still sin!-and that everyone else does as well-which reveals some level of distance from, not nearness to, God, to life-as both John and Paul MAKE CLEAR"). But you think etrnal life begins in the here and now because "we've now entered solidarity/alginment with Him and His perfect will". And this is marked by solidarity/alignment/union with God which is the opposite of Adam eating a piece of forbidden fruit in disobedience/faithlessness/disunion and created alienation.
It's not convoluted; it's quite simple, in fact. Your wholeness, your moral integrtiy, your purpose, your telos, your happiness, your life, your salvation is dependent on one thing: a relationship, communion with God, connection to the Vine. Fallen man is alienated from God. That's the essence of his injustice. Justice, OTOH, demands that man is subjugated to God in a relationship defined and bound by love. We're here to learn the unsurpassing value and need for that ineffable love, for Him. Adam didn't know what we're now here to learn: "Apart from Me you can do nothing." Adam didn't yet know God with any depth, and eternal life is to know Him (John 17:3).

Faith is the reestablishment of that vital relationship. But our love, our bond, can be shallow, temporary, as the Parable of the Sower explains. Will we be good soil where the seed planted takes root, grows, and expands to produce a hundred-fold? Again, the Parable of the Talents also sheds light on this, and how whatever is given can also be taken away.
This is a red herring, a false flag, and a disinformation operation. It's a red herring because it falsely equates faith in Christ with wanting to persist in sin. It's a false flag because it only points to grave sins as being bad. It's disinformation because the gospel is not movement towards the love that overcomes sin.
No, the problem is when people believe that faith in Christ means that sin need not be overcome. The problem is when people believe justification unto salvation need not mean that man has actually become just and must now walk in that justice. And if the gospel is not movement towards the love that overcomes sin then we've got a very gutless, worthless gospel.
 
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WordSword

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So what about David? God said that he was a man after His own heart, and yet he not only committed adultery by his own will but he had his friend Uriah, Bathsheba’s husband, killed so he could take her as his wife. Those were not involuntary sins my friend. So you have David who was not at enmity with God, but instead loved God, then he was tempted by lust and intentionally sinned, then repented and came back to God.
Hi, and appreciate your reply! All I can say is that it's different with this dispensation because God uses His Spirit to "work in you to desire and do His good pleasures" (Phl 2:13).
 
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BNR32FAN

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Hi, and appreciate your reply! All I can say is that it's different with this dispensation because God uses His Spirit to "work in you to desire and do His good pleasures" (Phl 2:13).
Ok so does this happen instantaneously or over night, or do we progressively become a new creation thru His word?
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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It's not convoluted; it's quite simple, in fact. Your wholeness, your moral integrtiy, your purpose, your telos, your happiness, your life, your salvation is dependent on one thing: a relationship, communion with God, connection to the Vine. Fallen man is alienated from God. That's the essence of his injustice. Justice, OTOH, demands that man is subjugated to God in a relationship defined and bound by love. We're here to learn the unsurpassing value and need for that ineffable love, for Him. Adam didn't know what we're now here to learn: "Apart from Me you can do nothing." Adam didn't yet know God with any depth, and eternal life is to know Him (John 17:3).

Faith is the reestablishment of that vital relationship. But our love, our bond, can be shallow, temporary, as the Parable of the Sower explains. Will we be good soil where the seed planted takes root, grows, and expands to produce a hundred-fold? Again, the Parable of the Talents also sheds light on this, and how whatever is given can also be taken away.

No, the problem is when people believe that faith in Christ means that sin need not be overcome. The problem is when people believe justification unto salvation need not mean that man has actually become just and must now walk in that justice. And if the gospel is not movement towards the love that overcomes sin then we've got a very gutless, worthless gospel.
It is hard to understand where you actually stand. You say on one hand you don't think you have eternal life because you sin just like everyone else sins and that nobody can really know for sure if the verses talking about having eternal life even apply to them. On the other hand, you say that if a person does not believe he has actually become just and now must walk in that justice then his gospel is gutless and worthless. Please stand in one place or the other because you can't have it both ways.
 
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WordSword

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It is hard to understand where you actually stand. You say on one hand you don't think you have eternal life because you sin just like everyone else sins and that nobody can really know for sure if the verses talking about having eternal life even apply to them. On the other hand, you say that if a person does not believe he has actually become just and now must walk in that justice then his gospel is gutless and worthless. Please stand in one place or the other because you can't have it both ways.
Regardless of what doctrines are being taught they can never draw you to loose your salvation, for the "elect" cannot be ultimately deceived; God will not allow it! (Mat 24:24).
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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Hi NLIC! I think we should take note that it doesn't say "shall not do," because it's impossible for a believer to desire sin any more, but rather in fact to "hate evil" (Pro 8:13), not ever desire evil. Christians have not one evil they like but "eschews evil" (1Pe 3:11); which can be done only via the precious Holy Spirit! I believe He uses the new man in us to do what He does for us. Some think the new man might be the Lord Jesus but the new nature is a "creation" and not a deity (Col 3:10). This syncs with that the the Enemy uses the old man or sin nature to attempt to get at us, which is also an impossibility. He can only slow us, but never overcome us.

The "flesh" here refers only to the "old man." The sin nature is at total odds with the Spirit, which keeps us learning about God's holiness. It's not like a believer would willingly want to be in a sin. This being against our will is what Paul meant by "captive," against his will (Rom 7:23); he had to be "brought" into sin which was always against his will (Rom 7:23).
The last part of Galatians 5:17 is quite enigmatitic to me. Here are a few translations:
  • 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. [The New King James Version (Ga 5:17). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]
  • 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. [New American Standard Bible: 1995 update (Ga 5:17). (1995). The Lockman Foundation.]
  • 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. [The New International Version (Ga 5:17). (2011). Zondervan.]
  • 17 For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don’t do what you want. [The Holy Bible: Holman Christian standard version. (Ga 5:17). (2009). Holman Bible Publishers.]
  • 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. [The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Ga 5:17). (2025). Crossway Bibles.]
  • 17 for the flesh doth desire contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit contrary to the flesh, and these are opposed one to another, that the things that ye may will—these ye may not do; [Young, R. (1997). Young’s Literal Translation (Ga 5:17). Logos Bible Software.]
  • 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. [The Holy Bible: King James Version (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., Ga 5:17). (2009). Logos Research Systems, Inc.]
To me, the final phrase is best understood to mean that the Spirit leads us in opposition to the flesh in order to prevent the desires of the flesh from ruling us. But even that understanding is premised on the fact that the desires of the flesh are our own desires. We see this in the final words... "the things that we desire" are the things "we don't do". We cannot say the desires that are left unfulfilled are not our desires.

So, to me, this leaves us in conflict with our own flesh. And it drives us to accept that His grace is sufficient. And it shows us that to prevent the fruits of the flesh we must walk in step with the Spirit of God who leads us in the opposite direction. If this were not so, there would be no need for the imperative, "walk", in Galatians 5:16, "walk in the Spirit".
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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Regardless of what doctrines are being taught they can never draw you to loose your salvation, for the "elect" cannot be ultimately deceived; God will not allow it! (Mat 24:24).
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." (Mt 24:23–27)​

I am pretty sure this is talking about the great tribulation where there will be false christs (plural) and false prophets pointing to false christs. And the admonition for those who go through it is to not believe those false reports of the real Christ's return because His return will be unmistakeably visible to every person everywhere. But you are right that verse 24 insinuates that saved people won't be deceived by those false reports.
 
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WordSword

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To me, the final phrase is best understood to mean that the Spirit leads us in opposition to the flesh in order to prevent the desires of the flesh from ruling us.
Good instructional reply! The Spirit will always let us see the old man, flesh or sin nature at work, and always lead us to truth. Paul said it's no longer him "that doeth it" (sin), but the sin nature. Paul refers to himself as not the sinner but the saint (Rom 7:17, 20). Christians are no longer "in the flesh" or in the sin nature or "old man" (Rom 8:9). Though the sin nature is in us, we are not is it!
 
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fhansen

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It is hard to understand where you actually stand.
This is because you're under the impression that salvation is an all at once permanent event, effectively disassociated from how one may live out the rest of their lives- or...considered to guarantee that they'll live it out well enough. And that's not the gospel.

If I cheat on my wife and our relationship is severely damaged, but later repentance and forgiveness come into play and the relationship becomes healed and alive again, maybe even stronger, then we've sort of emulated the function of salvation; the relationship has been translated from death to life. But then, say, if I let my eyes roam again a few years later, not valuing that relationship enough to refrain from contemplating and then becoming involved in infidelity again, no matter how hard my wife may've tried to preclude it, then I've done what anyone can also do in their relationship with God. And that relationship, again, IS our salvation, just as Adam's break with God constituted humanity's fall and condemnation.

So, when I speak of the fact that ”I still sin”, that means that, even though my faith means translation from life to death, that life is only as strong and secure as the relationship that defines and enables it. Sin means that I'm still looking elsewhere besides God for my wholeness, my fulfillment, my purpose-same as Adam did to begin with. I may still stray far from Him and any profession of so-called faith won't mean a thing in itself at that point. Again, intrinsic to fellowship with God is goodness, in me, or else the relationship is false. And, again, that goodness won't come from the Law; it comes from Him. And if you think that your willingness, your cooperation, your effort, perseverance, vigilance in this is unnecessary, if not impossible, then you've ignored a great deal of revelation. The opposite is true: God seeks your willingness, to elicit it and to increase it.

The concept of the "elect" is a hypothetical one for each of us until the end when He gives His just judgement; no one knows with perfect certainty that they, individually, are numbered among that group. What we know is that the elect will be saved, of course, which is rather redundant since they're saved by definition.

And there are not two “me’s”; there’s only one with sometimes conflicting desires. The appetites of the body for food, sex, security are good and natural gifts of God. The problem is that, when divorced from God, our normal self-control is gone-because we're "god” now for all practical purposes, doing what’s right in our own eyes, trying to fulfill ourselves with whatever attractions in creation exist around us while separated from the only possible true Source of satisfaction and fulfillment of all human desire. These alternative desires, aka disordered or inordinate desires, have often been referred to as "concupiscence", aka the "tinder for sin", beginning in ancient times. There's nothing wrong with the body; it's good as everything in God’s creation is inherently good; we “simply” lack the Spirit with which to control it due to man’s rebellion against/alienation from Him. That’s the person: that proud, lost, confused, pitiful unspiritual soul, that Paul is speaking of in Rom 7. Reconciliation with God has the purpose of healing that soul, reversing his rebellion-it’s an intimate communion, not just some declared legal status.

In 1 John 2, John speaks of this “three-fold concupiscence”, BTW, that tends to draw us away from God: “the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life”. Lust of the flesh for sex, food, pleasure in general, lust of the eyes for material possessions, wealth, and pride of life for self-glory, self-exaltation. All of these have good origins. Pleasure is good but when it becomes lust then the pleasure is idolized, and harm to self and others often result. When natural needs for security, things, and money become greed then harm likewise follows and when the abuse of healthy self-love results in pride then all kinds of harm often results; self-righteousness allows us to justify any and all behavior. But all of these things are only slavery, while promising greater fulfillment and self-worth. This is why God must come first, above all else as the first three commandments of the decalogue along with the greatest commandment declare. The nearer we are to God, the greater will be our holiness and our fruit, and the surer is our calling and election. Faith, from man's perspective, is the beginning, the foundation, of that relationship, and therefore of our salvation.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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This is because you're under the impression that salvation is an all at once permanent event, effectively disassociated from how one may live out the rest of their lives- or...considered to guarantee that they'll live it out well enough. And that's not the gospel.

If I cheat on my wife and our relationship is severely damaged, but later repentance and forgiveness come into play and the relationship becomes healed and alive again, maybe even stronger, then we've sort of emulated the function of salvation; the relationship has been translated from death to life. But then, say, if I let my eyes roam again a few years later, not valuing that relationship enough to refrain from contemplating and then becoming involved in infidelity again, no matter how hard my wife may've tried to preclude it, then I've done what anyone can also do in their relationship with God. And that relationship, again, IS our salvation, just as Adam's break with God constituted humanity's fall and condemnation.

So, when I speak of the fact that ”I still sin”, that means that, even though my faith means translation from life to death, that life is only as strong and secure as the relationship that defines and enables it. Sin means that I'm still looking elsewhere besides God for my wholeness, my fulfillment, my purpose-same as Adam did to begin with. I may still stray far from Him and any profession of so-called faith won't mean a thing in itself at that point. Again, intrinsic to fellowship with God is goodness, in me, or else the relationship is false. And, again, that goodness won't come from the Law; it comes from Him. And if you think that your willingness, your cooperation, your effort, perseverance, vigilance in this is unnecessary, if not impossible, then you've ignored a great deal of revelation. The opposite is true: God seeks your willingness, to elicit it and to increase it.

The concept of the "elect" is a hypothetical one for each of us until the end when He gives His just judgement; no one knows with perfect certainty that they, individually, are numbered among that group. What we know is that the elect will be saved, of course, which is rather redundant since they're saved by definition.

And there are not two “me’s”; there’s only one with sometimes conflicting desires. The appetites of the body for food, sex, security are good and natural gifts of God. The problem is that, when divorced from God, our normal self-control is gone-because we're "god” now for all practical purposes, doing what’s right in our own eyes, trying to fulfill ourselves with whatever attractions in creation exist around us while separated from the only possible true Source of satisfaction and fulfillment of all human desire. These alternative desires, aka disordered or inordinate desires, have often been referred to as "concupiscence", aka the "tinder for sin", beginning in ancient times. There's nothing wrong with the body; it's good as everything in God’s creation is inherently good; we “simply” lack the Spirit with which to control it due to man’s rebellion against/alienation from Him. That’s the person: that proud, lost, confused, pitiful unspiritual soul, that Paul is speaking of in Rom 7. Reconciliation with God has the purpose of healing that soul, reversing his rebellion-it’s an intimate communion, not just some declared legal status.

In 1 John 2, John speaks of this “three-fold concupiscence”, BTW, that tends to draw us away from God: “the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life”. Lust of the flesh for sex, food, pleasure in general, lust of the eyes for material possessions, wealth, and pride of life for self-glory, self-exaltation. All of these have good origins. Pleasure is good but when it becomes lust then the pleasure is idolized, and harm to self and others often result. When natural needs for security, things, and money become greed then harm likewise follows and when the abuse of healthy self-love results in pride then all kinds of harm often results; self-righteousness allows us to justify any and all behavior. But all of these things are only slavery, while promising greater fulfillment and self-worth. This is why God must come first, above all else as the first three commandments of the decalogue along with the greatest commandment declare. The nearer we are to God, the greater will be our holiness and our fruit, and the surer is our calling and election. Faith, from man's perspective, is the beginning, the foundation, of that relationship, and therefore of our salvation.
It seems as though the difference between our views, whether about sin, righteousness, eternal life, relationship, or anything else, always boils down to the same concept -- that what we have and who we are and what we want is always at risk of being lost if we fail to live up to our obligations.

Though I have never purposely adopted that point of view, the Lord made me experience the curses associated with it when in my youth I adopted a legalistic approach to Christian living. Because I abandoned grace and took up obedience as the pathway to rightness with God, He made me understand that when I take up even one law to obey it, I was under obligation to obey every law. And no matter how hard I worked at obedience, my failures to live up to the obligations of the whole law eventually broke me and drove me to my knees for forgiveness at the feet of Jesus. I learned through that experience to not get off my knees at Jesus' feet to pick back up the law to please Him through obedience - because my obedience was never enough and could never be enough. Even now, decades later, I understand that to remain free from that yoke of servitude, I must not abandon grace but must stand fast in the liberty by which Christ has set me free. I recommend this path to everyone.
 
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fhansen

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It seems as though the difference between our views, whether about sin, righteousness, eternal life, relationship, or anything else, always boils down to the same concept -- that what we have and who we are and what we want is always at risk of being lost if we fail to live up to our obligations.
Human beings as well as angels: rational, sentient beings with free will are, according to God's wisdom and will, obligated to love. That's the only way justice is authentically fufilled in His creation, that's what marks the difference between fallen and risen man. When we begin to understand that basic truth then we begin to much better understand the gospel. 'What we have and who we are and what we want' is inseparably related to our obligations, to that obligation.

Being aware of that obligation is not equal to legalism-it's simple to be aware of God's will for man which is what revelation is all about. There's no reason to make us aware of what we need to do if He's going to just pull strings and make us do it anyway. The law is all about trying to appear righteous while love is the way, the only way to actually make that happen by virtue of encounter with the Source of that love. That's grace. When Christianity makes the need or obligation for man to move from sinner to righteous into something bad and unnecessary, then we no longer have Christianity.

And liberty is not without obligation or else, in the hands of man, we can easily end up with licentiousness which both Paul and James warned against. Freedom rightly used is good, freedom abused, as Adam orginally did, is not good.

Either way Paul even told us In Rom 8 that we have the obligation to be righteous...and, again, there's only one way to do that. If you are succeeding by the power of God, then you've done just that; you've found the way- and so have actually grown in the love that He gives and that He is, not solely forgiven, but now changed-as we know we must. That love, of necessity, is both a gift from God- and a human choice.
 
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