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The Fifth Seal has been opened...

Douggg

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It symbolizes Conquerors. Or leaders who gain absolute power.
We have had many of those - the Roman Emperors, to Hitler and Stalin, etc.

Those murderers during the GT, will be dead too when Jesus Returns, Those GT martyrs will be vindicated by their being brought back to life.
The rest of the Christian martyrs must wait until the thousand years is over. They will then receive immortality and all their killers will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.


I said they came from Satan. Was that wrong?
I know the text says the False Prophet and the beast, - Satan gives them power.

You really need to start again from the beginning, as you have totally failed to achieve the objective of your byline.
keras, all of the time frames in Revelation leading up to Jesus's return fit within 7 years. The seven seals cover only those 7 years.

The seven seals were opened and John saw and heard what is going to take place during the 7 years.

The seven seals are NOT about events taking place over 2000 years. The rider on the white horse, given a crown, will be the Antichrist..


1775597970741.png
 
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keras

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all of the time frames in Revelation leading up to Jesus's return fit within 7 years. The seven seals cover only those 7 years.
I agree, actually all within the final 3 1/2 years. Excepting for the exact thousand years of King Jesus rule on earth.
Seals 1 to 4, have always been open, they are just manifestations of our human condition. Proved by Zechariah 1:8-1 & 6:1-8
Seal 5 was opened by Jesus at His Ascention. Proved by the millions of Christian martyrs since Stephen.
Seal 6, will happen when Iran attempts to fire a nuke missile at Israel.
Seal 7 is a time gap, from the Sixth Seal until Jesus Returns.
The rider on the white horse, given a crown, will be the Antichrist..
This idea shows how confused you are. When does the 'beast' get crowned?
I thought you believed, as I do too, that the man who will rise to become the Anti-Christ 'beast', is alive now. For sure, he won't be arriving on a white horse!
 
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Douggg

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Seal 5 was opened by Jesus at His Ascention. Proved by the millions of Christian martyrs since Stephen.
Seal 5 was opened by Jesus long after he ascended to heaven. John was on the island of Patmos, when he was called up to heaven.

Seal 5 is not talking about past Christian martyrers.

The martyrs in seal 5 are only the great tribulation martyrs because they appeal to Jesus to take out revenge on them that dwell on the earth - that is living on earth.

Them who martyred Stephen have been in their graves, dead, for 2000 years.

This idea shows how confused you are. When does the 'beast' get crowned?
I thought you believed, as I do too, that the man who will rise to become the Anti-Christ 'beast', is alive now. For sure, he won't be arriving on a white horse!
keras, you are the one who is totally confused.

The Antichrist is not the beast at the time he is crowned. Becoming the beast will take place over 3 years later.

The rider on the white horse, representing a messiah figure, will be the Antichrist who gets crowned the King of Israel, thought to be messiah. And he will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant by making a big speech on the temple mount that will begin the seven years.
 
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keras

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Seal 5 is not talking about past Christian martyrers.
it positivally is. Proved by Revelation 20:4-6, when the delineation is made between thw two groups of martys.
The rider on the white horse, representing a messiah figure, will be the Antichrist who gets crowned the King of Israel, thought to be messiah. And he will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant by making a big speech on the temple mount that will begin the seven years.
This convoluted interpretation, is purely from your imagination. It doesn't fit any of the Prophesies.
The Mt Sanai Covenant has long gone, superseded by Jesus.
 
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Douggg

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it positivally is. Proved by Revelation 20:4-6, when the delineation is made between thw two groups of martys.
Revelation 20:4-6 is referring to the great tribulation martyrs.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This convoluted interpretation, is purely from your imagination. It doesn't fit any of the Prophesies.
The Mt Sanai Covenant has long gone, superseded by Jesus.
keras, the Jews (Judaism) still hold to the Mt. Sinai covenant. In Deuteronomy 31:9-13, Moses made a requirement that on a seven year cycle, all future leaders of Israel were to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant by making a speech to the Jews, from the place of God's choosing, that God gave to the children of Israel the land of Israel as theirs forever.

I have talked to Jews (Judaism) about the place of God's choosing, and they said the temple mount. The temple mount has been under Muslim control, and they will not allow such a speech to be made. That will change once the Gog/Magog event takes place
 
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keras

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Revelation 20:4-6 is referring to the great tribulation martyrs.
Verse 5 refers to the resst of the dead, which includes the Christian martyrs from Stephen; until the GT commences.
keras, the Jews (Judaism) still hold to the Mt. Sinai covenant. In Deuteronomy 31:9-13, Moses made a requirement that on a seven year cycle, all future leaders of Israel were to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant by making a speech to the Jews, from the place of God's choosing, that God gave to the children of Israel the land of Israel as theirs forever.

I have talked to Jews (Judaism) about the place of God's choosing, and they said the temple mount. The temple mount has been under Muslim control, and they will not allow such a speech to be made. That will change once the Gog/Magog event takes place
It is incredible how you still believe in a Jewish redemption.
It is their virtual destruction that is Prophesied and only a remnant will return to the Holy Land. Jeremiah 50:4-5
 
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Douggg

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Verse 5 refers to the resst of the dead, which includes the Christian martyrs from Stephen; until the GT commences.
keras, Revelation 20:5 is referring to the rest of the dead not being resurrected until for the Great White Throne judgement after the thousand years are over.

The point is that the fifth seal (nor any of the seal events) event has NOT begun yet. The ones in the fifth seal are the great tribulation martyrs.

It is incredible how you still believe in a Jewish redemption.
It is their virtual destruction that is Prophesied and only a remnant will return to the Holy Land. Jeremiah 50:4-5
I think you need to read Ezekiel 39. It provides the framework for the 7 years.

Jesus is speaking in the text of Ezekiel 39:21-29. Ezekiel 39:28 = Matthew 24:31 the gathering of the elect (Jews from around the world to the land of Israel).
 
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keras

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Revelation 20:5 is referring to the rest of the dead not being resurrected until for the Great White Throne judgement after the thousand years are over.
I realise that I'm wasting my time correcting the wrong and unbiblical theories and guesswork you promote.. But others here can read what is said and decide for themselves what is going to happen and what is Truth.

As Rev 20:4 specifies who will be brought back to life, when Jesus Returns, ONLY the GT martyrs; the rest of the dead, must include all the martyrs before the GT. And, of course ALL the dead who have ever lived from Adam.
The point is that the fifth seal (nor any of the seal events) event has NOT begun yet. The ones in the fifth seal are the great tribulation martyrs.
Gross error!
How, and more pertinently, - Why do you think that?
Does the evil leaders, the terrible wars, the shocking famines and the disastrous plagues that the world has experienced not prove that Seals 1-4 are open now? Proved by Zechariah 1 & 6.
Why do you downgrade the sacrifice of all the Christian martyrs? Their souls are precious to God. Rev 6:9-11
I think you need to read Ezekiel 39. It provides the framework for the 7 years.
The Gog/Magog attack and clean up, have nothing to do with the final 7 years of this age. They may overlap somewhat.
Matthew 24:31 the gathering of the elect (Jews from around the world to the land of Israel).
Who are the 'elect', the Chosen peoples gathered when Jesus Returns?
Do not gloss over this question, for I will repeat it until you give a proper answer, scripturally supported.
 
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Douggg

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Gross error!
How, and more pertinently, - Why do you think that?
Does the evil leaders, the terrible wars, the shocking famines and the disastrous plagues that the world has experienced not prove that Seals 1-4 are open now? Proved by Zechariah 1 & 6.
Why do you downgrade the sacrifice of all the Christian martyrs? Their souls are precious to God. Rev 6:9-11
keras, them in the firth seal are the great tribulation martyrs to take part in resurrection event 2, I listed below.

There will be three resurrection events.

1. resurrection/rapture event before the great tribulation begins, to eternal life bodies *. All Christians up to that point.

2. after the great tribulation is over, the martyred great tribulation Christian saints will be resurrected to eternal life bodies *

3. after the thousand years is over, the resurrection of all of the remaining dead will be resurrected for the Great White Throne Judgment.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* do not part-take in the resurrection for the Great White Throne Judgment because they already will have eternal life bodies.
 
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keras

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keras, them in the firth seal are the great tribulation martyrs to take part in resurrection event 2, I listed below.

There will be three resurrection events.

1. resurrection/rapture event before the great tribulation begins, to eternal life bodies *. All Christians up to that point.

2. after the great tribulation is over, the martyred great tribulation Christian saints will be resurrected to eternal life bodies *

3. after the thousand years is over, the resurrection of all of the remaining dead will be resurrected for the Great White Throne Judgment.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* do not part-take in the resurrection for the Great White Throne Judgment because they already will have eternal life bodies.
This is incoherent, unbiblical and simply impossible for anyone to be given Eternal life, before the GWT Judgment.

Who are the elect?
 
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Douggg

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Who are the elect?
If you are referring to the elect of Matthew 24:31, the Jews. Jesus speaking in Ezekiel 39:28, gathers them from amongst the heathen, when He returns.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deuteronomy 30:1-5, speaking about the children of Israel, driven into the nations. And then gathered back to the land of Israel. Notice the unique terminology highlighted in blue in verse 4 with what is written in Matthew 24:31. It is the same.

Deuteronomy 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
 
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keras

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If you are referring to the elect of Matthew 24:31, the Jews. Jesus speaking in Ezekiel 39:28, gathers them from amongst the heathen, when He returns.
Yes; If by Jews, you mean; genuine Jews, those who are inwardly a Jew, with circumcision of the heart.... Romand 2:29
No, if you mean ethnic Jews.

If people believe the Israeli people still have Gods favour, they are sadly deceived, Zephaniah 1:18 describes their fate;-...... I will make a sudden and terrible end to all who live in the [Holy] Land.
Of course, those who have chosen to believe the rapture to heaven lie, must have the Jews on earth while they sit in heaven. This incredible lie, is never stated to happen in the Bible

The peoples that Jesus' angels will gather will be the true Elect, 1 Peter 2:9-10, all the faithful Christians, who will go into the Millennium with Jesus.
 
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keras

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3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
People seem to forget that there were 2 Exiles;- one of the 10 Northern tribes, who are the House of Israel, By Assyria in 720 BC. The other was in 586 BC when Babylon sent the House of Judah into captivity. Proved by Ezekiel 4:4-6, where both Houses were given a set time of exile.

It can be proved in many ways that they remain separated to this day. Even the Jews themselves acknowledge that the 10 Northern tribes remain scattered around the world and they speculate about when they will rejoin.

So the quotes from Deuteronomy and Ezekiel, apply to ALL of the 12 tribes of greater Israel.
WE Christians are the House of Irael, by descent and by grafting in. The Holy Land is OUR heritage!
 
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Spiritual Jew

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If you are referring to the elect of Matthew 24:31, the Jews.
Absolutely false. The elect include both Jew and Gentile followers of Christ. Being among the elect does not depend on ethnicity or nationality.

Who do you think are the elect in the following verse?

Romans 8:33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

The elect who will be gathered at the second coming of Christ are the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are in Christ and still are alive and remain when He comes (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17).
 
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Douggg

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WE Christians are the House of Irael, by descent and by grafting in. The Holy Land is OUR heritage!
No, the house of Israel is the descendants of the twelve tribes.
 
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Douggg

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Who then are the House of Judah?
Your confusion is very apparent..
Following King Solomon, the nation of Israel split into two kingdoms.

The northern kingdom retained the label "Israel".

The southern kingdom was called Judah. The house of Judah was refers to the portion of the twelve tribes that lived in the southern kingdom, during that time

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Regarding the end times, when the two kingdoms reunited back into one kingdom, in 1948.

Which is the modern nation of Israel in the news every day. Members of all twelve tribes live in modern-day Israel.
 
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keras

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Regarding the end times, when the two kingdoms reunited back into one kingdom, in 1948.
Not true.
What happened in 1948, was not the fulfilment of Isaiah 66:7-14. Or Isaiah 11:11, +
The new nation of the Jewish State of Israel, founded on communist principals, after 50 years of negotiation and preparation, cannot be the peoples of God. Ezekiel 20:33-38 proves it.
Members of all twelve tribes live in modern-day Israel.
There is no proof of anyones ancestry back to ancient times. The genealogies in the Temple were all burned in 70AD.
When Judah and Israel split, there were some from the Northern Tribes who joined with Judah. They became Jews.

This whole issue is inconsequential, as the New Testament makes it clear that it is only faithful Christians who are the peoples of God. From every tribe, race, nation, and language.
 
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keras

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In the New Testament no emphasis is given to any group, by ethnicity, religion, or any other divisions; but only to the whole company of what the NT calls ‘the elect,’ ‘the saints,’ ‘the disciples,’ ‘the brothers and sisters.’ If we recognise that all born again, baptised believers make up the Body of Christ and the People of God, we won’t make the mistake of identifying the true church with the Established Church. The real church is always the whole People of God, the whole ekklesia, the whole Body of Christ, the whole communion (fellowship, koinonia) of the disciples of Jesus. It includes lay persons, clergy and non-church people. All faithful Christian believers make up and belong together to the chosen race, the royal priesthood, the holy nation.

This implies a second conclusion: that as Christians, all members of the Church are fundamentally equal. All equally have been called by God to belong, all equally have been justified by Christ, all equally have been sanctified by the Holy Spirit. All equally have been called to respond to the message, the person and the work of Christ, by their faith, their commitment, their cooperation, their trust and their love. In principle also, all are equally responsible for the Church’s work in the world, its mission to spread to Gospel.

The gifts of the Spirit result in different services, tasks, functions and offices, but they are secondary to the fundamental membership in the Church which is based on true belief, and to the life of discipleship which stems from keeping the Commandments and doing the works according each individual’s situation. What counts more than any ministry or office, however exalted, is whether we live authentically as members of the chosen People of God.

Do we live in faith, hope and love in covenant relationship with God and with our fellow disciples of Jesus?

For, more than anything, the Church is the community of the disciples of Jesus. Everything else is secondary and subordinate to that. The shared call to baptism and discipleship has meant that from the beginning all kinds of people, sometimes persons naturally opposed, have joined the church and belonged to the congregation.

Jews and Gentiles, free citizens and slaves, rich and poor, men and women, have shared with one another in the life of the Church as fellow disciples of Jesus Christ, their Lord. An important point is that only through Jesus, has every Christian become the People of God in the New Covenant.

This has happened ‘in Christ,’ as Paul says. This truth raises two questions, vital questions in Christian-Jewish dialogue and reconciliation today:

1. Has God rejected His ethnic people and been unfaithful to his promises?
2. Have the Jews ceased to be a People of God?

These are difficult questions, which have been debated by Bible scholars and theologians for many years. To both of these questions the Apostle Paul has given a decisive ‘No!’ But as we see today sadly: most Jews continue to reject Jesus.

So; who exactly is the Israel of God now?
We know from Romans 9:27, that Israel is as numerous as the sands of the sea and 1 Peter 1:1 and James 1:1 both send greetings to the Twelve Tribes, scattered abroad.

The Jews alone do not fit either of these criteria.
The truth, that God has kept hidden from general knowledge, is that the ten Northern tribes, taken to the Caucasus region by Assyria did not remain there and they migrated across Europe, Jeremiah 31:21, they now comprise most of the Western peoples and have become the Christian nations.

That God’s Plan to have a people that bear the proper fruit; as the Jews rejected Him, Matthew 21:43, HAS been successful and that Western Christians are mostly Israelites: actual descendants of Jacob, is nothing short of miraculous and shows God’s amazing Plan of sending Jesus to be our Redeemer and Saviour, to be God’s fulfilment of Deuteronomy 18:18-19, Acts 7:37

Note: that Jesus came to be our Redeemer. To redeem someone means to reinstate them, to buy them back again from a fallen state.

Our destiny as born again Christians, is to be the people God has never had, His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, Acts 1:8 and displaying His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14 It will be our privilege and our honour, as He showers His Spirit and His Blessings upon His righteous people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. Amos 9:13-15, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 39:25-29, Revelation 7:9

The acceptance of the Gospel by some Jews like Paul means that their apostasy is not total. But the bulk of the ethnic Christian Israel of God are His people who have forgotten their ancestry. In the end times, their eyes will be opened and their ears unstopped; Isaiah 32:3-4 All the true righteous and faithful Christian people from every tribe, race, nation and language, Revelation 5:9-10, will be citizens of the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, in all of the holy Land, but in order to fulfil God’s promises to the Patriarchs, the majority will be the actual descendants of Jacob. Amos 9:9, Jeremiah 50:4-7

As Paul asserts: in the end "all Israel will be saved.” That is: every ethnic Israelite faithful to God, will enter the holy Land, accompanied by every true Christian Gentile, all members of the Israel of God, Galatians 6:14-16, Isaiah 56:1-8, Ephesians 2:1-18, but ALL who reject Him will not. Ezekiel 20:34-38, Hebrews 10:26-27
 
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BibleDaniel7

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Yes, I can understand why you might consider the chart muddled.

Hi Douggg, all

Firstly, thank you to Douggg for engaging with my post and sharing your diagrams of how you see Revelation being fulfilled. I don't agree with you, but it challenged me to clearly put out my own timeline of events, to make it clear how they all fit in, with my interpretation. My diagram isn't as pretty, but hopefully it is logical and clear how it all fits together. I am posting it here first for feedback before I include it on my website: Bible Daniel 7 Website

Bible VersesEventYear (if known)Signs/Fulfilment
Revelation 6:1-2First Seal2001+US-led "War on Terror"
Revelation 6:3-4Second Seal2007+Islamic State & Arab Spring
Revelation 6:5-6Third Seal2013+Xinjiang persecution
Revelation 6:7-8Fourth Seal2019+Covid-19, Gaza war
Revelation 6:9-11Fifth Seal2025+Martyrs given white robes
Revelation 6:12-17Sixth Seal2031+Earthquake, sun turned black, moon turned red, stars fall from sky
Revelation 7Sixth Seal continued144,000 Servants of God from 12 tribes sealed, multitude in white robes
Revelation 8:1-5Seventh Seal2037+Prayers, thunder & lightning, earthquake
Revelation 8:6-7First TrumpetHail & fire mixed with blood
Revelation 8:8-9Second TrumpetSomething like a mountain hurled into sea
Revelation 8:10-11Third TrumpetA great star called Wormwood falls from the sky
Revelation 8:12-13Fourth TrumpetA third of the sun, moon and stars darkened
Revelation 9:1-12Fifth TrumpetFirst Woe: locusts released from Abyss
Revelation 9:13-21Sixth TrumpetSecond Woe: army of 200 million kills one third of mankind
Revelation 10Sixth Trumpet continuedSeven Thunders
Revelation 11:1-14Sixth Trumpet continuedTwo Witnesses
Revelation 11:15-19Seventh TrumpetThunder & lightning, earthquake, hailstorm
Revelation 15-16Seventh Trumpet continuedThird Woe: seven Bowls of God's Wrath
Revelation 19:11-20:6Seventh Trumpet continuedReturn of Christ: Beast defeated, Satan Bound

Notes
Revelation 12-14 and Revelation 17-19:10 fulfilled in parallel (Revelation 12 fulfilled in 1940s, rest not yet fulfilled).
The prophecies relate to specific events, but use symbolic language (similar to Daniel and other Old Testament prophets).
For example, throughout the Bible the Jews are referred to as stars (eg. Genesis 37:9, Exodus 32:13, Deteronomy 1:10 etc.).
So when a third of the stars are swept out of the sky in Revelation 12:4 it is a reference to the Holocaust. Sixth seal may refer to a similar event :-(
 
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