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Free will and determinism

Bradskii

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There can’t be effect without cause under materialism. I’ll go with the concepts of Hobbs, Hume, Decartes, and possibly Locke that accept the metaphysical part of human beings.
So dualism. If that's your call then so be it. It went out the window with those you mentioned in the period in which they lived. But if you want to stick with it, then describe to me how you think it works.
 
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Bradskii

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You're right, all of those things resonated with you, but as motivating as they were it still took good old conscious Bradskii to make that choice. I guess that you're just a softy for a poetic turn of phrase. Hmmm, now how do we get you to do that with Earl Grey?
Hey, I have my limits, my man. No way am I going to spend my valuable time slowly sniffing tea on the offchance that I might get to like it.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I didn't ask if you wanted to know how it was done. I asked that if there was serious evidence for a very steep drop in recidivism for serious criminals by aiming to convert them from their evil ways to be useful members of society rather than simply subjecting them to hard core punishment, would you change your mind.

The question obviously boils down to: All things considered, do you prefer retribution or rehabilitation.

And please, no trite questions along the lines of 'Well, what you want if some degenerate massa cred your family?'

P.S. to the previous post: If Sapolsky doesn't believe in the concept of evil as a stand alone principle of human reason and philosophy (i.e. of Ethics and Morality), it leaves me wondering why I should promote the converse of the good of human welfare, particularly where the most hardened serial predators are a social concern.

While I agree with his central recommendation that a preference for rehabilitation over strident punitive measures should be applied to those we deem are evil doers, predicated by the following consideration, "The punchline: it's very complicated, so you better be sure you understand what's going on before you determine you understand why someone did what they did" (quoted from article below)....... I still tend to think that retribution is to be applied to Pimps (i.e. predation) and rehabilitation to Prostitutes (i.e. circumstantial complicity), metaphorically speaking.

 
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Tinker Grey

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a bottle of Laphroaig to thank me, as he knew I liked whisky. But...he didn't know I dislike the lowland styles.
[Completely unimportant aside]
I think you'll find that Laphroaig is an Islay scotch and Islay is the "capital" of peat. That isn't to say that all smokey scotches are from there; they aren't, a notable exception is Talisker which is a Highland scotch.

More than you wanted to know: Scottish Whisky Regions Compared: Speyside vs Highland vs Islay Complete Guide

[/aside]
 
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Bradskii

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P.S. to the previous post: If Sapolsky doesn't believe in the concept of evil as a stand alone principle of human reason and philosophy (i.e. of Ethics and Morality), it leaves me wondering why I should promote the converse of the good of human welfare, particularly where the most hardened serial predators are a social concern.
What he doesn't believe in has no influence on what you think should be done.
While I agree with his central recommendation that a preference for rehabilitation over strident punitive measures should be applied to those we deem are evil doers, predicated by the following consideration, "The punchline: it's very complicated, so you better be sure you understand what's going on before you determine you understand why someone did what they did" (quoted from article below)...
Darn tootin'. No-one (including Sapolsky as you noted) said it was easy. In fact, it's very hard indeed.
 
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Jerry N.

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So dualism. If that's your call then so be it. It went out the window with those you mentioned in the period in which they lived. But if you want to stick with it, then describe to me how you think it works.
It is simple. Our spiritual self, if you will, interacts with our physical self. The two are interlinked. The spiritual contains moral standards separate from the standards of society, evolution, and upbringing. We have free will to chose on which we make our choices. The biological and social standards may agree or disagree with the spiritual. However, we have the free will to chose. My mother, when I was little, may tell me to tell the caller on the phone that she is not home. I have the choice of telling the truth and receiving the consequences or lie as my mother wished. The choice is free with the consequences attached.
 
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Bradskii

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[Completely unimportant aside]
I think you'll find that Laphroaig is an Islay scotch and Islay is the "capitol" of peat. That isn't to say that all smokey scotches are from there; they aren't, a notable exception is Talisker which is a Highland scotch.

More than you wanted to know: Scottish Whisky Regions Compared: Speyside vs Highland vs Islay Complete Guide

[/aside]
And I'm now literally drinking a Penderyn, a Welsh whisky from near where I grew up. Matured in Oloroso sherry casks. Not bad at all...not bad at all....
 
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Tinker Grey

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And I'm now literally drinking a Penderyn, a Welsh whisky from near where I grew up. Matured in Oloroso sherry casks. Not bad at all...not bad at all....
I don't think I've ever had a Welsh whisk[e]y. I'll keep an eye out for one. (I've had a bunch aged in Oloroso; good stuff.)
 
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Neogaia777

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Everyone is a very, very unique individual, varying a lot from one another, and without trying to list all the factors up to that point of maybe you having to give a lot of thought to something (or right before you have to seriously have to put a lot of thought into contemplating something, etc) you're already starting out a very, very unique individual, a whole heck of a lot, lot different from anyone else, and already predisposed to an entirely unique starting point, and/or personality/point of view, etc, and so right before you have to seriously contemplate something maybe very, very much so, or very deeply for a bit, etc, what you think/how you think, even if another person was faced with the very same choice, or same exact situation, you are all going to think about that a whole heck of a lot differently regardless, due to that already unique starting position (that you were brought to by other previous determistic factors up to that point) but everyone's thoughts, and the next thoughts they have (that were caused by the previous ones, and then also add you as a unique person, or a 100% one of a kind up to that point, and no single one alike, etc) Anyway, your whole thoughts courses in the midst of all of your contemplating, is all deterministic also, (you have one thought, and it triggers or starts another, which then brings up a different one, or another, which then has another, etc) and due your starting position from that point, and your own unique make-up besides that also, what kinds of thoughts your going to have, and how those cause/bring up other ones or next ones after that, and then next ones after that, anyway, no one ever has or ever does these the exact same, and that's because we are all very, very unique individuals, and there are never any two alike, but all of this is still very, very much deterministic, etc.

Take Care.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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What he doesn't believe in has no influence on what you think should be done.
You sound seemingly certain about that. I, however, don't share that certainty, for various critical reasons.
Darn tootin'. No-one (including Sapolsky as you noted) said it was easy. In fact, it's very hard indeed.

On the other end of the correctional spectrum, I tend to focus more on how relatively EASY it is to offer most other people grace, mercy, amnesty, and charity when I know they're just fellow average human beings like myself, trying to make it through a ragtag world of rabid predators and other assorted manipulators.
 
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Mark Quayle

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You are being presumptuous. Disagreeing with your premises is not a simple matter of disliking your conclusion. Your premises negate free will from the start, but they are horrifying. They are based on pure materialism. The fact that many philosophers have come to different definitions of “free will” or “liberty” indicates that your premises are not universally accepted. There is nothing wrong with your logic if the premises are accepted, but a purely materialistic world view may not be the only reality.
The things upon which others —philosophers all, haha!— differ, and whether or not in their eyes @Bradskii would be right, is irrelevant to the point. Universal acceptance is no measure of fact.

Materialism, as I suspect you use the term, does not encompass all things. Causation necessarily prevails universally, whether in the physical, metaphysical, or in any other construction you want to look at. Even Principles and Universal Laws, regardless of what they govern, are either FIRST CAUSE, or caused.

Brad and I may disagree here, but in my opinion, 'Reality' itself is caused. Existence of the universe is an effect of a cause. 'Reason' is an effect of a cause. The-Way-Of-Things, is an effect. That these are also causes of further effects is irrelevant. All things, except first cause, are caused.

"Horrifying"? Or maybe, galling to your sensibilities and [mis]understandings of the role of man in this universe?
 
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Mark Quayle

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This has wandered way off-topic. But it is fun!
I didn't ask if you wanted to know how it was done. I asked that if there was serious evidence for a very steep drop in recidivism for serious criminals by aiming to convert them from their evil ways to be useful members of society rather than simply subjecting them to hard core punishment, would you change your mind.
And I didn't say that I wasn't open to whatever evidence you feel you have to shoulder that explanatory burden. Besides, didn't Jesus say to his disciples (which however far down the line I am in time and cultural proximity from Jesus) that we should "Love our enemies"? I think I've stated more than once here on CF that I value empathy to whatever degree I can.

At the same time, being the interdisciplinary guy I am, I don't see a firm line dividing method from theory, so you'll just have to stomach my own determined mode of engagement with the invitation to enjoin myself to evolutionary psychology you've offered with alacrity.
The question obviously boils down to: All things considered, do you prefer retribution or rehabilitation.
I don't see a need to show a preference, as if they are somehow exclusive of one another. They aren't.

At the end of the day, do I think that a serial murderer who would be given a second and third chance by society via episodes of rehabilitation but who then goes on to murder again should be given roses, chocolate, wine and a dandy apartment in which to live, with cable t.v.?

Nah. Really, it's not about my preference at all. My preference, like my vote, doesn't matter. Only actual full outcomes matter.
And please, no trite questions along the lines of 'Well, what you want if some degenerate massa cred your family?'

I wasn't thinking that, but thanks for the implication that I may have been doing so. Sometimes, it seems you really do underestimate me.

So, no evidence then?
No evidence of what—his off-topic claims, or their relevance to the subject of the OP?
 
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Jerry N.

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The things upon which others —philosophers all, haha!— differ, and whether or not in their eyes @Bradskii would be right, is irrelevant to the point. Universal acceptance is no measure of fact.

Materialism, as I suspect you use the term, does not encompass all things. Causation necessarily prevails universally, whether in the physical, metaphysical, or in any other construction you want to look at. Even Principles and Universal Laws, regardless of what they govern, are either FIRST CAUSE, or caused.

Brad and I may disagree here, but in my opinion, 'Reality' itself is caused. Existence of the universe is an effect of a cause. 'Reason' is an effect of a cause. The-Way-Of-Things, is an effect. That these are also causes of further effects is irrelevant. All things, except first cause, are caused.

"Horrifying"? Or maybe, galling to your sensibilities and [mis]understandings of the role of man in this universe?
Fine, have fun with that, but I think you are missing the point. I think you are expanding things to fix your idea. Materialism says that here is nothing but the material world. The philosophers were smarter than you . I, and Bradskii combined. Horrifying is the death of millions of people and the suppression of full lives. My thoughts on the relationship of mankind to the universe are related to the will of God, so you can talk to Him about that.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Neogaia777

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I kinda just like going about my daily life sometimes and wondering what might be a setup/foreordained/pre-arranged, or what might be around the corner or the next bend for me next, etc. Makes it kinda exciting, seeing what's going to come or happen next, what I'm maybe supposed to do about it, or not do about it or not, etc. Sure, much of the time, not much happens, but those times when something does, makes life kinda cool/exciting. I don't want a constant barrage mind you (I like to be left alone a lot) but that's not usually the way it happens most of the time anyway, etc. It's part of why I try to get out of the house when I can, etc. Turns those days into an adventure kind of, etc. And having this deterministic perspective that I have does sometimes make it nteresting, etc. No accidents/nothing is by chance, etc.

God Bless.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Sure. I'd love to know what it takes to rehab and reincorporate a serial predator................
Lol, in one South American country's dictatorship, the country did very well, (and the dictator did even better). He pass and enforced laws that, for example, a first time offender thief would have his hand cut off at the wrist. That worked pretty well, but if he did it again, they cut off his other hand. Life for life. Eye for eye. A rapist would lose something else, and wasn't likely to repeat the crime. A child could carry a paper bag full of money to the bank, and everyone would stay distant to avoid getting charged and losing something. If the child came too near, the person would do all they possibly could to help that child to his destination safe.

They say public floggings make things worse, and are barbaric. The Old Testament stonings—did they harden people? Or maybe they taught people the enormity and horror of sin. "Save each man's pride" is hard to find in the Bible.

That kind of thing may be what it takes, for a whole culture. The individual, yep, probably would be stopped from repeat offenses.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Fine, have fun with that, but I think you are missing the point. I think you are expanding things to fix your idea. Materialism says that here is nothing but the material world. The philosophers were smarter than you . I, and Bradskii combined. Horrifying is the death of millions of people and the suppression of full lives. My thoughts on the relationship of mankind to the universe are related to the will of God, so you can talk to Him about that.
Where do you get the notion of "full lives", as though that was of value in and of itself? It is said that back before Noah people lived several hundreds of years. Why would God start ending lives at 80 now? Is that not horrifying? Why not? Is it cruel and unusual for a child to die at birth? Why not? What do you think this life is for—us?

But, in the end it is irrelevant to the facts, what any of us suppose or posit about horror, right and wrong, etc. The law of causation is universal. The sorties against it all fall away.
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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pure materialism
Exactly. Infinite materialism no less.

Staring God right in the hands of eternity and not seeing Him.

Open eyes take in 10 million bits per second. You can see why such tend to focus on materialism as it floods the senses and that's all they see and focus on
 
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Neogaia777

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Lol, in one South American country's dictatorship, the country did very well, (and the dictator did even better). He pass and enforced laws that, for example, a first time offender thief would have his hand cut off at the wrist. That worked pretty well, but if he did it again, they cut off his other hand. Life for life. Eye for eye. A rapist would lose something else, and wasn't likely to repeat the crime. A child could carry a paper bag full of money to the bank, and everyone would stay distant to avoid getting charged and losing something. If the child came too near, the person would do all they possibly could to help that child to his destination safe.

They say public floggings make things worse, and are barbaric. The Old Testament stonings—did they harden people? Or maybe they taught people the enormity and horror of sin. "Save each man's pride" is hard to find in the Bible.

That kind of thing may be what it takes, for a whole culture. The individual, yep, probably would be stopped from repeat offenses.
There is the point you are making, but I also don't think a lot of people fully understand what God of the OT was trying to do in the OT either, before resorting to/submitting to the last plan that he probably didn't think too much about originally, etc.

Because everything else he did/tried, none if it worked ultimately, etc, no matter what, after a generation or two, or sometimes even before that even, it was already built into humankind by another one to have them always sin/resist/rebel always, etc, and after the fall, there was never any taking it back to that again, etc, and eventual hopes of an everlasting perfect kingdom here on earth that would represent heaven were eventually greatly, greatly diminished, etc, because people just kept sinning/rebelling, etc, and going after other gods, that it was put into each of their own wills/heart to sin/rebel against that ones authority also, and to make that in humankind even very much more worse for humankind, etc, so it was eventually found out that that last plan, that maybe he didn't give too much thought about at first, would have to eventually be carried out/enacted eventually, but only after trying everything else, or fully exhausting everything else first, etc. Having to sacrifice one of your very own biological children that would be a part of you, and of your own seed, but that would always be constantly testing your limits (only without actually sinning) and that might even prove to be superior to you in or by the end of it, was not something he would have been looking forward to probably, not to mention what that would be doing to his own heart the whole entire time also, and most especially near or by the very end of it, etc. And we still don't know who resurrected Jesus, and so there is that also, etc.

Why do you think he tested Abraham like he did after the fall of mankind/humankind, and tried to make an everlasting covenant with him/promise to him after that, etc.

God Bless.
 
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Fervent

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So dualism. If that's your call then so be it. It went out the window with those you mentioned in the period in which they lived. But if you want to stick with it, then describe to me how you think it works.
Now you're making false dilemmas? There are plenty of ontologies that aren't dualism or materialism. Though if the choice is between being a cobbled together homunculus or an irreducible self, the irreducible self wins. If it's mind or matter, mind wins. Idealism is more likely than materialism, but there are a litany of other options on the table.

So I suppose excluded middle is just another fallacy to put on your record.
 
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