Captive but Blameless!

Those believers who sin can only do so because they will to sin, same as for anyone else. Walking in the Spirit doesn't consitute some reprieve from the penalty of sin, nor does it mean that I sin without desiring to sin; but that walk is all about overcoming sin, putting to death the old man and his desires. This triumph, through and because of Jesus Chrsit, is what Paul is excited about at the end of Rom 7. He explains further in Rom 8:

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

WordSword said:

“Walking in the Spirit” is something that is considered by God a permanent situation for those who are His. Even though believers still sin, they are termed walking in the Spirit because it’s what they always desire. Like Apostle Paul we never desire to sin, but we realize this is not possible, for the sin nature yet indwells.

Rom 7:14 – “For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.” I believe God allowed the sin nature, i.e. “old man” to indwell within the believer to continue to learn His holiness, and also continue to exercise faith in Christ’s expiation for our sin from its often guilt-accused approaches!

“Whereas, when Paul speaks of his unregenerate state, and how it was with him under the first convictions of sin, he speaks of them as things past, Romans 7:5; besides, several things which are said by the apostle can neither agree with him, nor any other, but as regenerate; such as to "hate evil," "delight in the law of God," and "serve it with the mind," Romans 7:15. Moreover, the distinctions between flesh and spirit, the inward and the outward man, and the struggle there is between them, are to be found in none but regenerate persons; and to say no more, the thanksgiving for deliverance from sin by Christ can only come from such.” -John Gill

Rom. 7:15 - “For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do (does not want to sin), that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do” (it’s not like Paul never practiced holiness but still sinned at times, same as any believer).

Rom. 7:16 – “If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good (another evidence that Paul did not want to sin).

Rom. 7:17 – “But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.” Believers “are not in the flesh,” i.e. not seeking after the sin nature, but after walking in the Spirit. The fact that believers desire to be after the Spirit releases them from guilt of the sin that “captivates” them, and are considered blameless.

Rom. 7:23 - “But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” Paul is admitting that the indwelling sin nature is causing him to sin. This sounds like bondage but it’s a “captivity” to the sin nature, because it is against the nature of a believer.

Hence, the believer is considered always walking in the Spirit. One either walks in the Spirit or in the flesh; you cannot do both. What we desire is always what the Father desires, because He “works this in you” (Phl 2:13).

-NC

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You are describing the spiritual war (Rom 7:23) which everyone who is in Christ (Rom 8:9-10) experiences. And the war can be characterized as a clash of the flesh against the spirit, as a clash of human nature against divine nature, or as a clash of the old man against the new man. This war will continue until physical death separates the spirit from the flesh (or the divine nature from the human nature, or the new man from the old man). And what survives that separation will be further clothed (2 Cor 5:4) with a spiritual body (1 Cor 15:44) that is befitting the new lives we received when Christ came to live in our hearts. Then, and only then, will the war cease. Until then, we must be satisfied that His grace is sufficient (2 Cor 12:9) and accordingly that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Rom 8:1).

Galatians 5:16-17 describes this war as the flesh and the Spirit being in adversarial opposition to one another. The flesh and the Spirit have desires in opposite directions. It tells us that if we don't want to fulfill the lusts of the flesh, then we must choose to walk in the Spirit. Yes, we live in the Spirit (Gal 5:25; Rom 8:9), but we do not always walk in lock step with the Spirit (Gal 5:25). When we walk in the Spirit we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, but that doesn't mean we never give in to the desires of the flesh.

On the contrary, temptation works on us because of the flesh. We are "drawn away" by our "own desires and enticed" (Jas 1:14). Those desires are the desires of the flesh. They are our desires in the old man (our human nature). And just as Galatians tells us that we overcome the desires of the flesh when we walk in the Spirit, other verses tell us that our success comes when we put off the old man and put on the new man (Eph 4:22-24; Col 3:9-11). When we turn from the flesh to the Sprit and live out the new lives that we have in Christ, then we avoid the fruits of the flesh and enjoy the fruits of the Spirit.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:

When we turn from the flesh to the Sprit and live out the new lives that we have in Christ, then we avoid the fruits of the flesh and enjoy the fruits of the Spirit.

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Yes, and as Scripture affirms, the main fruit is eternal life.

Being set free from the captivity of sin isn't being permanently set free from its penalties, or just being given a stronger and more sensitive conscience about it (even gentile non-believers may have that as Rom 2 makes clear) but about being forgiven of it and released from it's bondage, now enabled to overcome it-set free from sin itself to become "slaves to rigteousness" instead even as we'll continue to battle with sin's temptations throughout our lives, sometimes failing.

But we've been given new hearts ans spirits and called to develop them, to grow in the grace and justice/ righteousness/holiness-in the love- that's been shown and made available to us now.

fhansen said:

Yes, and as Scripture affirms, the main fruit is eternal life.

Being set free from the captivity of sin isn't being permanently set free from its penalties, or just being given a stronger and more sensitive conscience about it (even gentile non-believers may have that as Rom 2 makes clear) but about being forgiven of it and released from it's bondage, now enabled to overcome it-set free from sin itself to become "slaves to rigteousness" instead even as we'll continue to battle with sin's temptations throughout our lives, sometimes failing.

But we've been given new hearts ans spirits and called to develop them, to grow in the grace and justice/ righteousness/holiness-in the love- that's been shown and made available to us now.

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This is similar to some Baptist doctrine I have been exposed to that says that before we were saved we could only sin, but after being saved we now have the ability to not sin. This POV has some flaws, the main one being that our supposed ability to not sin does not present itself in any reliable way (except that when we walk in the Spirit we do at the same time fulfill the lusts of the flesh). But looking at our successes as being meritorious does not negate our personal responsibility for our failures. So, in the end, unless we have no failures, we are totally dependent on God's mercy to keep us from His wrath.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:

This POV has some flaws, the main one being that our supposed ability to not sin does not present itself in any reliable way (except that when we walk in the Spirit we do at the same time fulfill the lusts of the flesh).

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Not sure what this means, TBH. We fulfill the lusts of the flesh when we walk in the Spirit? Maybe a typo?

NewLifeInChristJesus said:

But looking at our successes as being meritorious does not negate our personal responsibility for our failures. So, in the end, unless we have no failures, we are totally dependent on God's mercy to keep us from His wrath.

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It's both/and. We'll still sin but we cannot sin like the devil-wanton, perstistent, grave sin- and expect to make it into heaven-the bible makes it clear that sin can still earn us death. God forgives us our sins and now expects us to be moved by that love, and changed by it- to embrace that change, that love, while reciprocating it. Foe example:
"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." matt 6:14-15

WordSword said:

Hi NLIC! I think we should take note that it doesn't say "shall not do,"

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What is "it"?

WordSword said:

because it's impossible for a believer to desire sin any more, but rather in fact to "hate evil" (Pro 8:13), not ever desire evil. Christians have not one evil they like but "eschews evil" (1Pe 3:11); which can be done only via the precious Holy Spirit! I believe He uses the new man in us to do what He does for us. Some think the new man might be the Lord Jesus but the new nature is a "creation" and not a deity (Col 3:10). This syncs with that the the Enemy uses the old man or sin nature to attempt to get at us, which is also an impossibility. He can only slow us, but never overcome us.

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The new man was "created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). This is who we have become in Christ. We have been "joined to the Lord" and are "one spirit with Him" (1 Cor 6:17). Because we have been birthed from out of God (Jn 1:12-13), and because His seed (σπέρμα, sperma) remains in us, there is no possibility that the new man can be turned away from God to sin (1 Jn 3:9, 5:18). Because of this, we can be confident that the new lives we have in Christ will never be corrupted by sin.

WordSword said:

The "flesh" here refers only to the "old man." The sin nature is at total odds with the Spirit, which keeps us learning about God's holiness. It's not like a believer would willingly want to be in a sin. This being against our will is what Paul meant by "captive," against his will (Rom 7:23); he had to be "brought" into sin which was always against his will (Rom 7:23).

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This is true for the new man. But the opposite is true for the old man. And we must contend with the person we are in Adam until the end of our physical lives. The sins the he leads us into are our sins. They are our responsibility. They have not been done away with, but they are forgiven. And we have the opportunity (by walking in the Spirit) to reduce the fruits of the flesh, though until its death we will never be able to stop its evil desires. Ithe short answer is that our old man is corrupt and can't beformed, but our new man is truly righteous and holy and cannot be corrupted by sin.

fhansen said:

Not sure what this means, TBH. We fulfill the lusts of the flesh when we walk in the Spirit? Maybe a typo?

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yes, a typo. I forgot the word not (as in "we do not at the same time fulfill the lusts of the flesh").

fhansen said:

It's both/and. We'll still sin but we cannot sin like the devil-wanton, perstistent, grave sin- and expect to make it into heaven-the bible makes it clear that sin can still earn us death.

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If a person is corrected by God when he sins, then he is His child. If he is not corrected by God when he sins, he is not His. (Heb 12:5-11)

fhansen said:

God forgives us our sins and now expects us to be moved by that love, and changed by it- to embrace that change, that love, while reciprocating it.

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Yes, this is a consistent theme in our discussions -- i.e., the concept that being moved by His love, being changed by it, embracing the change, and reciprocating His love are the expectations God places on us. But other people see these things, not as expectations paced on them (with eternal rewards for meeting those expectations and eternal damnation for not meeting them), but as a change of nature that cannot be corrupted by the sinfulness of the flesh.

fhansen said:

[For] example:
"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." matt 6:14-15

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There are several instances of this reflective principle in the NT, and they are related. Here, it is said to unforgiving people that they will not experience the forgiveness of God.

In Matthew 7 it says, "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you." (Mt 7:1–2) This tells us that judgemental people will experience the judgement of God.

In Galations 5 it says, "And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Ga 5:3–4) This tells us that legalistic people make themselves debtors to keep the whole law.

What do these all have in common? The principle behind all these is that a person reaps what he sows. If he is unforgiving, he won't be forgiven. If his judgemental, he will be judged. If he is legalistic, he will be held to the letter of the law. So, what's the answer? Forgive as you have been forgiven, do not judge as you are not judged, and stand fast in your liberty in order to avoid the yoke of bondage.

Is this warning that we will not attain eternal life if we fail? No. It is a warning that a miserable life awaits us if we do not listen. And God uses that misery to bring us to repentance. But He does that for those who are His children. He doesn't correct those who are not His children.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:

If a person is corrected by God when he sins, then he is His child. If he is not corrected by God when he sins, he is not His. (Heb 12:5-11)

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Yes, and w e must respond, of course. He wants all to repent, in fact, as per 2 Pet 2:9. And He doesn't make us into automatons who can't help but obey, a truth that's proven by the fact that believers continue to sin. So, yes, if were not responding to His chastisement, not turning back away from that sin, then we wouldn’t be His- with or without any profession to the contrary.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:

Yes, this is a consistent theme in our discussions -- i.e., the concept that being moved by His love, being changed by it, embracing the change, and reciprocating His love are the expectations God places on us.

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And yet it's more than expectation; it's our God-given potential and ultimate purpose- as we're to be perfected in that love. And we can refuse to do it, refuse to love because the love He desires for and from us is necessarily both a gift, and a human choice.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:

Is this warning that we will not attain eternal life if we fail? No. It is a warning that a miserable life awaits us if we do not listen. And God uses that misery to bring us to repentance. But He does that for those who are His children. He doesn't correct those who are not His children.

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Again, from Eden on God does not make puppets. Choice is involved from beginning to end even as grace is essential in order for us to even begin to enter into the race, the journey back to Him, a journey which is inseparable from our becoming the beings He created us to be. And He created no one to sin.

WordSword said:

Hi! Excuse me for the insufficient information. It refers to the Scripture that says "so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

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No problem. I get it now.

fhansen said:

Yes, and we must respond, of course. He wants all to repent, in fact, as per 2 Pet 2:9. And He doesn't make us into automatons who can't help but obey, a truth that's proven by the fact that believers continue to sin. So, yes, if we're not responding to His chastisement, not turning back away from that sin, then we wouldn’t be His- with or without any profession to the contrary.

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We see this in much the same way except for one point which may be significant.


These verses indicate that the children of God are chastened and those without chastening are not His children. Considering everyone to be subjects of His chastening and identifying His children according to their willingness to be corrected changes the meaning a bit. It may be a mistake, but the fact that this rendering is consistent with the idea that one's performance dictates the completion of his salvation, it appears to be doctrinal.

fhansen said:

And yet it's more than expectation; it's our God-given potential and ultimate purpose- as we're to be perfected in that love. And we can refuse to do it, refuse to love because the love He desires for and from us is necessarily both a gift, and a human choice.

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I wish I could help you see that we are complete in Him (Col 2:10).

fhansen said:

Again, from Eden on God does not make puppets. Choice is involved from beginning to end even as grace is essential in order for us to even begin to enter into the race, the journey back to Him, a journey which is inseparable from our becoming the beings He created us to be. And He created no one to sin.

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We can agree that we are not puppets. But not being puppets does not mean that our salvation hinges on our performance. One sinner goes to hell and another sinner goes to heaven. Neither were puppets. What's the difference? The only acceptable answer is that God forgave one person's sins but not the other's sins. When we search the Scriptures for answers as to why one sinner is forgiven and another is not, we find that 1) it was not by their works of righteousness that they were saved but by His mercy (Titus 3:5), and 2) He choses to save people who believe the seemingly foolish gospel that Jesus died for their sins and rose again (1 Cor 1:21).

NewLifeInChristJesus said:

We can agree that we are not puppets. But not being puppets does not mean that our salvation hinges on our performance. One sinner goes to hell and another sinner goes to heaven. Neither were puppets. What's the difference? The only acceptable answer is that God forgave one person's sins but not the other's sins. When we search the Scriptures for answers as to why one sinner is forgiven and another is not, we find that 1) it was not by their works of righteousness that they were saved but by His mercy (Titus 3:5), and 2) He choses to save people who believe the seemingly foolish gospel that Jesus died for their sins and rose again (1 Cor 1:21).

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Yet Christ died for all (2 Cor 5:14-15) because God loves all of His creation (John 3:16). So there's another element involved which is, indeed, the will of man. And that's why, again, there's also a condition on forgiveness as Matt 6:14-15, already cited, as well as the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant in Matt 18, make clear, to name just a couple instances where it's taught that we must comply.

Forgiveness is an aspect of reconciliation, just as it is among human relationships. If I feel unforgiven, I will never change, I'll remain an offender. But if I know the other person has forgiven and accepted me, I can come out of that darkness, if I care enough to do so-and continue to care. That's what it means to not be a puppet, or to end up being good soil that didn't let the cares or attractions of this world ultimately keep us distanced from God.

Forgiveness of sin is only one aspect of justification, while the ability to overcome future sin is another aspect, intrinsic to now being turned back to Him by and through faith. He is our justice or righteousness, which is why being and remaining in Him, apart from whom I can do nothing, will produce much good fruit (John 15:5). Bad fruit, sin, means I haven't really entered into that vital relationship, or have departed from it, or I'm on the edge, flirting with grave sin.

We're no longer under the law, which would demand that we obey perfectly, externally, legalistically, by the Letter, which Paul counted as all garbage in Phil 3. We now obey by the Spirit, under grace, by the life and love of God now indwelling, and in this He demands our cooperation, an embracing and acting upon faith, hope, and, most importantly, love. Man is obligated to love, possible only by virtue of our nearness to and interaction with Him. But the more we love, first shown to us and fostered by Him, the more willingly we begin to love, as He does. And that's what He's after in us-that is our salvation.

The Parable of the Talents in Matt 5 sheds much light on how this works. God gives, and we must take His gift and gain an increase, not sit on our laurels after burying the gift. Some will will receive more, some less-with more expected from those given more (Luke 12:43)-but all are expected to gain a return. Absolute perfection, righteousness, sinlessness will come in the next life but it must begin here and be accomplished to God's satisfaction, whatever that means for each of us individually-He knows the heart. In the next life we'll know with absolute certainty whether we've done as He wills with what He's given us, whether we made our calling and election sure, whether He'll be saying, "Well done they good and faithful servant."

But if we have good fruit, the fruit of love, we have much reason for assurance.

fhansen said:

We're no longer under the law, which would demand that we obey perfectly, externally, legalistically, by the Letter, which Paul counted as all garbage in Phil 3. We now obey by the Spirit, under grace, by the life and love of God now indwelling, and in this He demands our cooperation, an embracing and acting upon faith, hope, and, most importantly, love. Man is obligated to love, possible only by virtue of our nearness to and interaction with Him. But the more we love, first shown to us and fostered by Him, the more willingly we begin to love, as He does. And that's what He's after in us-that is our salvation.

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If something is by grace (e.g., we are saved by grace), then it is no longer considered to be by works. Otherwise, grace loses its meaning. Likewise, if something is by works (e.g., we are saved by works of righteousness which we have done), then it is no longer considered to be by grace. Otherwise, work loses its meaning.

How did grace lose its contrast with work?

NewLifeInChristJesus said:

How did grace lose its contrast with work?

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The contrast isn’t gone; we have to understand what grace is first of all, its nature and role. Grace isn’t just about the forgiveness of sin, but also about the ability to overcome sin, to become God’s children, who He created us to be. This comes about as we're connected to Him, the Vine, with His life now flowing to and within us-as is meant to be. Theologians have conceived of these three: grace, love, and the Holy Spirit, as being intrinsically linked. So the works prepared for us in advance in Eph 2 are not works of the law, but works of grace, motivated by the love poured out into our heart by the Holy Spirit, Rom 5:5. We become slaves to righteousness now so that we can fulfill Christ’s command to the woman caught in adultery: “Neither do I condemn you. Go, and sin no more”. Connection/communion with God changes us: Jer 31:33-34 prophecies about this new covenant relationship beginning with the change:

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.”

And followed by the cause of the change: a direct, close-reconciled relationship now between man and God:

“I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.”

Ending with the necessary precedent to all of this taking place:

“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

This grace, this change, this justification, this work of God in us, is outlined well in Rom 5 and 6, paying particular attention to the highlighted verses:

“For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:17-21

“For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin." Rom 6:5-7

"For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, AND THE RESULT IS ETERNAL LIFE." Rom 6:14-22

fhansen said:

The contrast isn’t gone; we have to understand what grace is first of all, its nature and role. Grace isn’t just about the forgiveness of sin, but also about the ability to overcome sin, to become God’s children, who He created us to be.

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Grace is favor that is unmerited. The favor granted without merit was that He made us who believe His children (Jn 1:12-13). And we are at this moment His children (1 Jn 3:1-2). And because we are His children, we are "heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ" (Ro 8:17). We didn't deserve His forgiveness and we didn't deserve to be made His children. But He did it because He loved us (Jn 3:16).

NewLifeInChristJesus said:

Grace is favor that is unmerited. The favor granted without merit was that He made us who believe His children (Jn 1:12-13). And we are at this moment His children (1 Jn 3:1-2). And because we are His children, we are "heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ" (Ro 8:17). We didn't deserve His forgiveness and we didn't deserve to be made His children. But He did it because He loved us (Jn 3:16).

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Of course grace is unmerited; we can do nothing apart from Him. Adam had thought otherwise, that he didn't need God, while we're here now in this world to learn the fallacy of his disobedience. If I throw a drowning man a life preserver and he refuses to grab hold, or grabs it but casts it off later, does that mean my saving act was somehow merited by him-or was it unmerited ? If Christ knocks on your door but you refuse to answer does that mean that His knocking was merited?

God gave man freedom for a reason, to use it correctly rather than to abuse it as the world, apart from Him, so generally does. And grace is not intended to deny that freedom but to enlighten and enliven it, to patiently elicit from we lost souls the right response: turning to Him in faith first of all-reversing within ourselves Adam's disbelief- so that we're now rejoined with Him, setting us free to be the people He created us to be, and then to increasingly continue to do so throughout our lives as we daily pick up our cross and follow Him instead of the world and its leader.

And Happy Easter!

fhansen said:

Of course grace is unmerited; we can do nothing apart from Him. Adam had thought otherwise, that he didn't need God, while we're here now in this world to learn the fallacy of his disobedience. If I throw a drowning man a life preserver and he refuses to grab hold, or grabs it but casts it off later, does that mean my saving act was somehow merited by him-or was it unmerited ? If Christ knocks on your door but you refuse to answer does that mean that His knocking was merited?

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These are interesting questions. They seem to point to the offer of salvation as being unmerited but not salvation itself as being unmerited. Knowing that being saved by grace through faith is a gift of God (Eph 2:8) and that God saves everyone who according to their faith calls on the name of the Lord (Rom 10:13-14), can we agree that God saving us from His wrath is also unmerited favor.

fhansen said:

God gave man freedom for a reason, to use it correctly rather than to abuse it as the world, apart from Him, so generally does. And grace is not intended to deny that freedom but to enlighten and enliven it, to patiently elicit from we lost souls the right response:

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This is also interesting. Reformed theology seems to have this as their premise for the I in TULIP - that His grace cannot be resisted and always leads the elect to make the right decision. It makes sense that coming from Catholicism they retain the concept grace demands a response, though in this case irresistibility adds significant new doctrine.

fhansen said:

turning to Him in faith first of all-reversing within ourselves Adam's disbelief- so that we're now rejoined with Him, setting us free to be the people He created us to be, and then to increasingly continue to do so throughout our lives as we daily pick up our cross and follow Him instead of the world and its leader.

And Happy Easter!

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There are many people within various denominations who beileve in the concept that salvation by grace through faith wipes out our past sins and equips us to run the race and win. Others count themselves as winners already.