Esau's choice

Maine Progressive · Mar 17, 2026

Gen 25:32. Esau said, "I am about to die; of what use is a birthright to me?" First, I applaud the many Christians who find today's politics distressing and even harmful to their faith and closeness to God, and therefore refrain from it. Between the shouting matches and the echo chambers I don't blame you. I would like to address an issue looking at politics not for the now, but for Christians in the future tense. What will today's conservative Christians be seen as in the future? That's my question.
I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect we will be viewed the same as Esau, having sold our birthright for a momentary palliative. We can find many Christian, theological, or Biblical arguments supporting or condemning various conditions and political actions which lead empathetic secularists to disagree. I absolutely will not re-ignite those arguments here. But unfortunately those are becoming the defining moments for today's Christians. How will we be defined in this future. I believe many Christians today are driven like Esau to seek a momentary satisfaction at the expense of their birthright. Which birthright is: to be the leaders and purveyors of salvation, grace, mercy, peace, kindness, welcome, justice and charity. They make this foolish trade to acquire some momentary protection. We see the world changing and we fear what it will do to us and how it is targeting us and we hunger for a bowl of pottage to sustain us. It's a mistake. Time will show us what we've lost.

2PhiloVoid · Mar 17, 2026

Maine Progressive said:
Gen 25:32. Esau said, "I am about to die; of what use is a birthright to me?" First, I applaud the many Christians who find today's politics distressing and even harmful to their faith and closeness to God, and therefore refrain from it. Between the shouting matches and the echo chambers I don't blame you. I would like to address an issue looking at politics not for the now, but for Christians in the future tense. What will today's conservative Christians be seen as in the future? That's my question.
I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect we will be viewed the same as Esau, having sold our birthright for a momentary palliative. We can find many Christian, theological, or Biblical arguments supporting or condemning various conditions and political actions which lead empathetic secularists to disagree. I absolutely will not re-ignite those arguments here. But unfortunately those are becoming the defining moments for today's Christians. How will we be defined in this future. I believe many Christians today are driven like Esau to seek a momentary satisfaction at the expense of their birthright. Which birthright is: to be the leaders and purveyors of salvation, grace, mercy, peace, kindness, welcome, justice and charity. They make this foolish trade to acquire some momentary protection. We see the world changing and we fear what it will do to us and how it is targeting us and we hunger for a bowl of pottage to sustain us. It's a mistake. Time will show us what we've lost.

So, which epistemology should we be using in all of this by which to discern the truth of the claims you're making?

Maine Progressive · Mar 17, 2026

2PhiloVoid said:
So, which epistemology should we be using in all of this by which to discern the truth of the claims you're making?

Whatever one you prefer. I make no claim. I refuse, as I said, to reignite those arguments here. I'm simply pointing out what I believe is our future of a lost birthright. I hope I'm wrong. Each can make their own assessment of the future. Or none. (I’m limiting my responses to one. More mansplaining feels like discounting your kindness shown by offering a comment.)

2PhiloVoid · Mar 17, 2026

Maine Progressive said:
Whatever one you prefer. I make no claim. I refuse, as I said, to reignite those arguments here. I'm simply pointing out what I believe is our future of a lost birthright. I hope I'm wrong. You should make your own assessment of how tomorrow's Christians will be viewed. (I’m limiting my responses to one. More mansplaining feels like discounting your kindness shown by offering a comment.)

I'm not really concerned about what today's "conservative" Christians will be known as tomorrow. It's not like their sudden change of heart would then change the world. To think as much is to commit a hasty conclusion.

Matt5 · Mar 18, 2026

I needed a little help from Grok AI in order to make it more digestible.

Grok AI Summary - Here are the key points from the text, broken down into a clear bullet list:

Esau's statement in Genesis 25:32 is referenced: "I am about to die; of what use is a birthright to me?" — he traded his birthright for immediate, temporary relief (a bowl of stew/pottage).
The author respects and understands Christians who avoid politics today because it feels distressing, harmful to faith, full of shouting matches and echo chambers.
The main focus is not on present-day politics, but on how today's conservative Christians will be viewed in the future.
The author fears (and hopes he is wrong) that future generations will see today's conservative Christians as similar to Esau — people who sold their spiritual birthright for short-term, momentary comfort or "palliative" relief.
Christians have a unique birthright— to be known as the primary leaders and representatives of:
- salvation
- grace
- mercy
- peace
- kindness
- welcome
- justice
- charity
Instead of embodying these qualities, many are making a "foolish trade" driven by fear of a changing, hostile world that seems to target them.
In their hunger for protection and security, they seek immediate satisfaction ("a bowl of pottage") at the expense of their true calling and identity.
The defining public moments and impressions of Christians today are increasingly tied to political stances and actions (rather than the birthright qualities above).
The author deliberately avoids restarting theological or biblical debates about specific political positions.
Ultimately, time will reveal what has been lost through this exchange, just as Esau's choice became clear in hindsight.

I would like to point out that the end-time judgements will be initially at the nation level in the nation against nation wars in Matthew 24:7. These will be on a planetary scale (more Matthew 24:7) - world wars. That means progressive Christians are going down with conservative Christians. I guess neither are viewed favorably but for different reasons.

You are heavily influenced by the Great Feminization. If a law or rule or Bible verse makes me sad, then don't do it, or at least bend it. Welcome to progressive Christianity.

The crime of conservative Christians is sleeping. They allowed the Great Feminization to sneak in and undermine the very foundation of society.

RDKirk · Mar 18, 2026

Matt5 said:
You are heavily influenced by the Great Feminization. If a law or rule or Bible verse makes me sad, then don't do it, or at least bend it. Welcome to progressive Christianity.

I don't see that expressed, either in the OP or in your AI-powered interpretation of it.

Matt5 · Mar 18, 2026

RDKirk said:
I don't see that expressed, either in the OP or in your AI-powered interpretation of it.

The main idea is that when the ship goes down, we're all going down together. That includes non-conservatives. I guess you can just ignore the Great Feminization stuff.

Maine Progressive · Mar 18, 2026

Matt5 said:
I needed a little help from Grok AI in order to make it more digestible.

Grok AI Summary - Here are the key points from the text, broken down into a clear bullet list:

Esau's statement in Genesis 25:32 is referenced: "I am about to die; of what use is a birthright to me?" — he traded his birthright for immediate, temporary relief (a bowl of stew/pottage).

The author respects and understands Christians who avoid politics today because it feels distressing, harmful to faith, full of shouting matches and echo chambers.

The main focus is not on present-day politics, but on how today's conservative Christians will be viewed in the future.

The author fears (and hopes he is wrong) that future generations will see today's conservative Christians as similar to Esau — people who sold their spiritual birthright for short-term, momentary comfort or "palliative" relief.

Christians have a unique birthright— to be known as the primary leaders and representatives of:

salvation

grace

mercy

peace

kindness

welcome

justice

charity

Instead of embodying these qualities, many are making a "foolish trade" driven by fear of a changing, hostile world that seems to target them.

In their hunger for protection and security, they seek immediate satisfaction ("a bowl of pottage") at the expense of their true calling and identity.

The defining public moments and impressions of Christians today are increasingly tied to political stances and actions (rather than the birthright qualities above).

The author deliberately avoids restarting theological or biblical debates about specific political positions.

Ultimately, time will reveal what has been lost through this exchange, just as Esau's choice became clear in hindsight.

I would like to point out that the end-time judgements will be initially at the nation level in the nation against nation wars in Matthew 24:7. These will be on a planetary scale (more Matthew 24:7) - world wars. That means progressive Christians are going down with conservative Christians. I guess neither are viewed favorably but for different reasons.

You are heavily influenced by the Great Feminization. If a law or rule or Bible verse makes me sad, then don't do it, or at least bend it. Welcome to progressive Christianity.

The crime of conservative Christians is sleeping. They allowed the Great Feminization to sneak in and undermine the very foundation of society.

Ah, I know it. Ever since Eve, ya just can't trust women. Well, I disagree. You dislike 'If a Bible verse makes me sad, then don't do it.' I dislike 'If God says in the Bible to do this cruel thing, then I'll do it.' Compassion is central to Scripture. And surprising how much of it is there given that it grew from our patriarchal past. And right or wrong, I am confident that the path Progressive Christianity is on i.e. more Salvation, Grace, Mercy, Peace, Kindness, Welcome, Justice and Charity is the only thing that will save us in the days to come...or end times as you say. I am not afraid to cast my lot in with them. I have put my faith in what I sincerely believe Christ has taught and what Christ has worked in my heart through grace. So I will gladly face the Second Coming with you. In the mean time, I am concerned how Christianity will be viewed. How will they view your 'very foundation of society' as you try to wake conservative Christians and restore this 'very foundation'. What will they make of its character, its history, its nature, its treatment of others?

iarwain · Mar 18, 2026

Maine Progressive said:
And right or wrong, I am confident that the path Progressive Christianity is on i.e. more Salvation, Grace, Mercy, Peace, Kindness, Welcome, Justice and Charity is the only thing that will save us in the days to come...or end times as you say.

Certainly both sides of the political spectrum have their problems, especially when compared with the Perfection of Christianity. But I disagree that Conservatives are somehow worse than Progressives, or that the Right is somehow worse than the Left. In fact, I would say that the left is more based upon a secular ideology than the right is. Most times you see people trying to kick God out of the culture, it is from the left, not the right. I think the real answer resides in recognizing the limits and influence of earthly politics in your life.

I have never seen such hatred and disrespect thrown around as casually as I have on political forums. Embracing politics too fully will poison you.

I admittedly lean conservative. Bill Maher (someone I initially would not listen to since he is atheist and even made a movie to ridicule religious people) once said something to the effect that people can't help whether they are liberal or conservative, it's baked into their personalities. If you have a certain personality, you are going to lean one way or the other. So you shouldn't hold a person's political bent against them. I think there's some truth in that, somewhere. I lean conservative, because I prefer traditional Judeo-Christian values, as opposed to the alternative values pushed by the left.

Maine Progressive · Mar 18, 2026

And you are correct. You will always see conservative Christianity as better. I appreciate the implication that at least I am also a Christian. And, having been a very conservative Christian growing up, I can appreciate the integrity of conservatives. But, based entirely on Judeo-Christian values I do lean liberal and always will going forward. I don't mean to be judgmental, but I suppose it comes off that way when I say that the values pushed by the Beatitudes are the only thing that will save us. Sorry, it's what I believe. And I should have said this next thing with my first response. (I’m limiting my responses to one (or 2 this time, sorry my fault). More mansplaining feels like discounting your kindness shown by offering a comment.)

iarwain · Mar 18, 2026

Maine Progressive said:
And you are correct. You will always see conservative Christianity as better. I appreciate the implication that at least I am also a Christian. And, having been a very conservative Christian growing up, I can appreciate the integrity of conservatives. But, based entirely on Judeo-Christian values I do lean liberal and always will going forward. I don't mean to be judgmental, but I suppose it comes off that way when I say that the values pushed by the Beatitudes are the only thing that will save us. Sorry, it's what I believe. And I should have said this next thing with my first response. (I’m limiting my responses to one (or 2 this time, sorry my fault). More mansplaining feels like discounting your kindness shown by offering a comment.)

I understand and appreciate your limiting your responses, I have done the same. Obviously we could get into an argument going in all sorts of directions about our positions. I will say this though - I don't see anything about the Beatitudes that favor the left over the right. But that aside, the main reason I replied to your post is I want to make clear that I was talking about conservative politics, not conservative Christianity, if that is a thing. Mixing Christianity with earthly politics mostly only sullies it, I feel like it's above such things.

RDKirk · Mar 18, 2026

iarwain said:
Certainly both sides of the political spectrum have their problems, especially when compared with the Perfection of Christianity. But I disagree that Conservatives are somehow worse than Progressives, or that the Right is somehow worse than the Left. In fact, I would say that the left is more based upon a secular ideology than the right is. Most times you see people trying to kick God out of the culture, it is from the left, not the right. I think the real answer resides in recognizing the limits and influence of earthly politics in your life.

I have never seen such hatred and disrespect thrown around as casually as I have on political forums. Embracing politics too fully will poison you.

I admittedly lean conservative. Bill Maher (someone I initially would not listen to since he is atheist and even made a movie to ridicule religious people) once said something to the effect that people can't help whether they are liberal or conservative, it's baked into their personalities. If you have a certain personality, you are going to lean one way or the other. So you shouldn't hold a person's political bent against them. I think there's some truth in that, somewhere. I lean conservative, because I prefer traditional Judeo-Christian values, as opposed to the alternative values pushed by the left.

Eh, I dunno.

The words have shallow and overlapping meaning. Neither "liberal" nor "conservative" describe the same political or cultural attitudes that they described back when I was majoring in political science 50 years ago. That is what Bill Maher talks about.

I also prefer Christian values (I no longer consider those values "Jewish" in any real way).

But I'm also in favor of Medicare for All, to some extent because government medical care has done well by me all my life, and I'm aware that our current medical "system" (in quotes because it's not really systematized at all) places an unnecessary wasteful burden on both individuals and businesses. I don't see how Medicare for All would subvert the ability to practice Christianity in any way.

And I'm opposed to the current "whatever corporations want, corporations get" corporatism (no longer free enterprise, and even post-capitalist) that "conservatives" seem to idolize. I don't see how corporatism enhances Christianity in any way.

iarwain · Mar 18, 2026

RDKirk said:
But I'm also in favor of Medicare for All, to some extent because government medical care has done well by me all my life, and I'm aware that our current medical "system" (in quotes because it's not really systematized at all) places an unnecessary wasteful burden on both individuals and businesses. I don't see how Medicare for All would subvert the ability to practice Christianity in any way.

And I'm opposed to the current "whatever corporations want, corporations get" corporatism (no longer free enterprise, and even post-capitalist) that "conservatives" seem to idolize. I don't see how corporatism enhances Christianity in any way.

I have no objection to universal healthcare, although I have very little confidence in our government to do it well.

I don't think conservatives idolize corporatism, but we do believe businesses need a certain amount of freedom to operate, and we don't think success should be punished.

RDKirk · Mar 19, 2026

iarwain said:
I have no objection to universal healthcare, although I have very little confidence in our government to do it well.

It's what people who label themselves "conservative" vote against, though.

iarwain said:
I don't think conservatives idolize corporatism, but we do believe businesses need a certain amount of freedom to operate, and we don't think success should be punished.

Corporatism is what people who label themselves "conservative" vote for, though.

FireDragon76 · Mar 22, 2026

2PhiloVoid said:
So, which epistemology should we be using in all of this by which to discern the truth of the claims you're making?

It's analogical or typological, it doesn't need a sophisticated account of epistemology. Esau traded something spiritual for something material, and the implication is that this is a pattern of reprobation in God's covenantal dealings with creation.

2PhiloVoid · Mar 22, 2026

FireDragon76 said:
It's analogical or typological, it doesn't need a sophisticated account of epistemology. Esau traded something spiritual for something material, and the implication is that this is a pattern of reprobation in God's covenantal dealings with creation.

No, it's not "analogous." Although, since the OP is clearly political in nature, it might be anachronistic. Its overall contextual application in connection with its axiological and epistemic framing clearly make it incomparable.

IOW, voting and working for the wrong person isn't analogous or typological to repeating the error of Esau. Besides, Esau was still blessed by God, just with "less." See Deuteronomy 2:5. So, this whole trope of Jacob vs. Esau is misapplied here, even if some typological case can be made for 'Esau' in the Prophets.

All this spiritualized political mudslinging by those on the extreme opposite sides of the spectrum needs to stop. Save it for the true problem makers, those who are either true Nazis or Communists----or for the Drug Cartels, or for those who think Solomon's lifestyle was heroic, or bold, or blessed----not simply those who don't fully align or advocate, or who aren't 100% "all-in" for the specific political positions that are so frequently vying with each other and jockeying for position.

(And no, I'm not implying that Progressives are wrong wholesale on every single issue they open their mouths about. So, I don't want to see any attempts to imply or infer anything about my own apparent position on politics based solely on what I've just said.)

RDKirk · Mar 22, 2026

2PhiloVoid said:
Save it for the true problem makers, those who are either true Nazis or Communists.

To be "true" do they have to be traditional with all the traditional trappings, or can they be streamlined and modernized?

2PhiloVoid · Mar 22, 2026

RDKirk said:
To be "true" do they have to be traditional with all the traditional trappings, or can they be streamlined and modernized?

............... well, there are those who are Nazis or Communists simply because the opposing sides cites them as such, whether or not those whom they're citing are actually card carrying (usually behind the scenes) Nazis or Communists or actually believe any of that garbage at all.

2PhiloVoid · Mar 22, 2026

RDKirk said:
To be "true" do they have to be traditional with all the traditional trappings, or can they be streamlined and modernized?

As someone influenced by Critical Realism, I have no problem dynamically floating between Thomas Sowell on the one side and James Cone on the other. They both have some useful things to say, with "useful" meaning 'true.' And my saying this isn't virtue signalling, it's just an epistemological fact of my own perspective.

Lukaris · Mar 22, 2026

What if my faith understanding defaults to what is called “conservative” in secular understanding? I believe God created us as is stated in Genesis 1:27, Genesis 2:7 as the Lord states in Mark 10:6-8 etc. The moral commandments of Exodus 20:1-17, Deuteronomy 6:1-8, Leviticus 18, 19, & 20 etc.

Thankfully made merciful by the Lord in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5, 6, & 7. Summed up & fulfilled in Matthew 7:12 ( per Matthew 7:1-12, Matthew 22:36-40 etc. Affirmed by the Lord in Matthew 15:1-20. As the Lord told the rich young man in Matthew 19:16-19 affirmed by the Lord as Paul tells us in Romans 13:8-10 & within the framework of living in the fallen world in Romans 13:1-14.

While I should not judge others & live by the golden rule etc. The same commandments of the Old Testament ( Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, Amos 5:14-15, Isaiah 55:6-9 etc,) remain within the framework of salvation by grace (Ephesians 2:8-10).

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