The Holy Spirit's Guarantee vs. Our Performance - Which One Saves?

It is belief in the person Jesus that gives people God's free gift of Eternal Life. Believing that Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected is a miracle that Jesus did. Which should point the person to Jesus and say hey Jesus is who He said He was The Son of God, The Messiah/Christ the resurrection and the life.

So the person may believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

I committed at my baptism and received the Spirit.

It depends on what you mean by "saved"?

If you are rejected for entry into the kingdom of heaven on earth, and consequently tossed into outer darkness (Matthew 25, parable of the talents), does that mean you are still saved?

BrotherJJ said:

If salvation depends on your performance, then you're only as secure as your best day & scripture never builds salvation on something that unstable. Titus 3 says God saved us ""not because of works of righteousness which we have done,"" but by the Holy Spirit's purifying, regeneration & renewal poured out through Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1 says the moment you heard the gospel & believed, God sealed you with the Holy Spirit > His guarantee, not yours. Your performance fluctuates. His guarantee doesn't

Tit 3:
5 He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we have done, but because of His own compassion and mercy, by the cleansing of the new birth (spiritual transformation, regeneration) and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

6 whom He poured out richly upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior,

7 so that we would be justified [made free of the guilt of sin] by His [compassionate, undeserved] grace, and that we would be [acknowledged as acceptable to Him and] made heirs of eternal life [actually experiencing it] according to our hope (His guarantee).

8 This is a faithful and trustworthy saying; and concerning these things I want you to speak with great confidence, so that those who have believed God [that is, those who have trusted in, relied on, and accepted Christ Jesus as Savior,] will be careful to participate in doing good and honorable things. These things are excellent [in themselves] and profitable for the people.

Ehp 1:
7 In Him we have redemption [that is, our deliverance and salvation] through His blood, [which paid the penalty for our sin and resulted in] the forgiveness and complete pardon of our sin, in accordance with the riches of His grace

Synopsis:
Believer, Jesus Christ Himself pours out the Holy Spirit: who cleanses, transforms, regenerates & continually renews you spiritually (Titus 3:5–6). Through this work of the Spirit, God justifies you, judicially declaring you free from the guilt of sin, makes you fully acceptable to the Father & an heir of eternal life (Titus 3:7). You are already experiencing that eternal life now because His Spirit in-you is His guarantee. Through His sinless shed blood, Christ purchased the forgiveness of all your sins—past, present & future—according to the riches of His grace (Ephesians 1:7).

Question
Did this happen when you repented from all your sins & were water baptized?

1 Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(NOTE: Anyone that believes they can conquer their own sin nature, without God' Holy Spirit' help is mistaken)

Eph 1:
13 In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation, and [as a result] believed in Him, were stamped with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit [the One promised by Christ] as owned and protected [by God].

14 The Spirit is the guarantee [the first installment, the pledge, a foretaste] of our inheritance until the redemption of God’s own [purchased] possession [His believers], to the praise of His glory.

Here's when Jesus Baptizes you with/by/in the Holy Spirit
When you HEARD ""the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation"" & BELIEVED in Him, you were SEALED—stamped as God's own—by the promised Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13). That Holy Spirit is the guarantee, the down‑payment, the 1st installment of your full inheritance until the final redemption of God's purchased people (Eph 1:14).

This applies to all who have trusted in, relied on & accepted Christ Jesus as Savior, thru faith placed in His sin-atoning death & resurrection (1 Cor15:1-4 & Rom 10:9-10).

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When you attach Ephesians 1:7 to a sentence that includes "past, present, and future," you are essentially rewriting the Bible to fit a certain narrative. Scripture tells us we have "redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins," but it never gives us a "pre-approved" pass for sins we haven't even committed yet. By interjecting those words, you're pushing a "Once Saved Always Saved" idea that just isn't in the text, and it's dangerous because it makes people think they don't need to keep repenting or stay faithful. You’re taking a beautiful truth about God’s grace and twisting it into a license to stop caring about how we live, and that's just not what the Word says. I was once like you but realized that hypocrisy crept in when I used OSAS to justify sin. This us what quenches the work of His Holy Spirit in the believer. I am out of this and now have become more and more obedient not for salvation but for my love for Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Remember, " faith without works is dead". And the fruits of His Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. These are displayed through the vessel of the flesh.

I am sure this is why you posted this in the controversial forum because it is a controversial theological view.

Thanks for sharing.

When i was a slave to corn, i feared for my salvation and my soul felt without God presence,
i was of free of that years ago, and i don't wish to know what would of happen if a person dies like that. Better don't try to keep sinning.

We need to stop sinning. We will always have defects and mistakes, but the serious sin we need to cut, because the bible just says
that the unrighteous are not going to inherit the kingdom of God DON'T BE DECEIVED IT SAYS, those who do serious sin.

I would answer the question posed by the thread title by saying that neither the Holy Spirit's guarantee nor our performance actually saves a sinner. The Holy Spirit will surely only give a guarantee of salvation to sinners who are saved. Our performance, or "good works", as mentioned in Ephesians 2 also follow salvation. Sinners are saved by Jesus Christ and His completed work.

BrotherJJ said:

If salvation depends on your performance, then you're only as secure as your best day & scripture never builds salvation on something that unstable. Titus 3 says God saved us ""not because of works of righteousness which we have done,"" but by the Holy Spirit's purifying, regeneration & renewal poured out through Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1 says the moment you heard the gospel & believed, God sealed you with the Holy Spirit > His guarantee, not yours. Your performance fluctuates. His guarantee doesn't

Tit 3:
5 He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we have done, but because of His own compassion and mercy, by the cleansing of the new birth (spiritual transformation, regeneration) and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

6 whom He poured out richly upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior,

7 so that we would be justified [made free of the guilt of sin] by His [compassionate, undeserved] grace, and that we would be [acknowledged as acceptable to Him and] made heirs of eternal life [actually experiencing it] according to our hope (His guarantee).

8 This is a faithful and trustworthy saying; and concerning these things I want you to speak with great confidence, so that those who have believed God [that is, those who have trusted in, relied on, and accepted Christ Jesus as Savior,] will be careful to participate in doing good and honorable things. These things are excellent [in themselves] and profitable for the people.

Ehp 1:
7 In Him we have redemption [that is, our deliverance and salvation] through His blood, [which paid the penalty for our sin and resulted in] the forgiveness and complete pardon of our sin, in accordance with the riches of His grace

Synopsis:
Believer, Jesus Christ Himself pours out the Holy Spirit: who cleanses, transforms, regenerates & continually renews you spiritually (Titus 3:5–6). Through this work of the Spirit, God justifies you, judicially declaring you free from the guilt of sin, makes you fully acceptable to the Father & an heir of eternal life (Titus 3:7). You are already experiencing that eternal life now because His Spirit in-you is His guarantee. Through His sinless shed blood, Christ purchased the forgiveness of all your sins—past, present & future—according to the riches of His grace.

Question
Did this happen when you repented from all your sins & were water baptized?

1 Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(NOTE: Anyone that believes they can conquer their own sin nature, without God' Holy Spirit' help is mistaken)

Eph 1:
13 In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation, and [as a result] believed in Him, were stamped with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit [the One promised by Christ] as owned and protected [by God].

14 The Spirit is the guarantee [the first installment, the pledge, a foretaste] of our inheritance until the redemption of God’s own [purchased] possession [His believers], to the praise of His glory.

Here's when Jesus Baptizes you with/by/in the Holy Spirit
When you HEARD ""the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation"" & BELIEVED in Him, you were SEALED—stamped as God's own—by the promised Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13). That Holy Spirit is the guarantee, the down‑payment, the 1st installment of your full inheritance until the final redemption of God's purchased people (Eph 1:14).

This applies to all who have trusted in, relied on & accepted Christ Jesus as Savior, thru faith placed in His sin-atoning death & resurrection (1 Cor15:1-4 & Rom 10:9-10).

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If our performance fluctuated such that that I’ve simply remained in my sins after conversion, or that I might be pretty righteous one day but commit murder, adultery, or theft the next day, then there certainly wouldn’t have been much “purifying, regeneration & renewal” going on. But if that purity now remains an option throughout the rest of my life, an option that I can exercise/express resulting in that purity growing, or not, then such purity, while dependent on our remaining in Him, certainly is inherent in a person who’s heaven-bound, and is something that can also be ignored, uncultivated, rejected, forfeited. Rom 6, for one, seems to present this option, with the gift of righteousness, holiness, sanctity ending in eternal life.

BrotherJJ said:

If salvation depends on your performance, then you're only as secure as your best day & scripture never builds salvation on something that unstable. Titus 3 says God saved us ""not because of works of righteousness which we have done,"" but by the Holy Spirit's purifying, regeneration & renewal poured out through Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1 says the moment you heard the gospel & believed, God sealed you with the Holy Spirit > His guarantee, not yours. Your performance fluctuates. His guarantee doesn't

Tit 3:
5 He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we have done, but because of His own compassion and mercy, by the cleansing of the new birth (spiritual transformation, regeneration) and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

6 whom He poured out richly upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior,

7 so that we would be justified [made free of the guilt of sin] by His [compassionate, undeserved] grace, and that we would be [acknowledged as acceptable to Him and] made heirs of eternal life [actually experiencing it] according to our hope (His guarantee).

8 This is a faithful and trustworthy saying; and concerning these things I want you to speak with great confidence, so that those who have believed God [that is, those who have trusted in, relied on, and accepted Christ Jesus as Savior,] will be careful to participate in doing good and honorable things. These things are excellent [in themselves] and profitable for the people.

Ehp 1:
7 In Him we have redemption [that is, our deliverance and salvation] through His blood, [which paid the penalty for our sin and resulted in] the forgiveness and complete pardon of our sin, in accordance with the riches of His grace

Synopsis:
Believer, Jesus Christ Himself pours out the Holy Spirit: who cleanses, transforms, regenerates & continually renews you spiritually (Titus 3:5–6). Through this work of the Spirit, God justifies you, judicially declaring you free from the guilt of sin, makes you fully acceptable to the Father & an heir of eternal life (Titus 3:7). You are already experiencing that eternal life now because His Spirit in-you is His guarantee. Through His sinless shed blood, Christ purchased the forgiveness of all your sins—past, present & future—according to the riches of His grace.

Question
Did this happen when you repented from all your sins & were water baptized?

1 Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(NOTE: Anyone that believes they can conquer their own sin nature, without God' Holy Spirit' help is mistaken)

Eph 1:
13 In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation, and [as a result] believed in Him, were stamped with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit [the One promised by Christ] as owned and protected [by God].

14 The Spirit is the guarantee [the first installment, the pledge, a foretaste] of our inheritance until the redemption of God’s own [purchased] possession [His believers], to the praise of His glory.

Here's when Jesus Baptizes you with/by/in the Holy Spirit
When you HEARD ""the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation"" & BELIEVED in Him, you were SEALED—stamped as God's own—by the promised Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13). That Holy Spirit is the guarantee, the down‑payment, the 1st installment of your full inheritance until the final redemption of God's purchased people (Eph 1:14).

This applies to all who have trusted in, relied on & accepted Christ Jesus as Savior, thru faith placed in His sin-atoning death & resurrection (1 Cor15:1-4 & Rom 10:9-10).

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Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so there is a direct connection between our salvation and being a doer of the Law of God and the key is to correctly understand what that connection is and is not. We can't earn our salvation even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God because it was never given as a way of earning or salvation in the first place, so our obedience of the Law of God has nothing to with with having a good enough performance. While there are many verses like Titus 3:5 that speak against becoming saved as the result of our works, there are also many verses that makes it clear that our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of good works.

For example, in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only only the doers of the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the reason why our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to do the will of the Father by being workers of lawfulness is not in order to have a good enough performance, but because that is the way to know Jesus. While Paul denied in Romans 4:1-5 that we can earn our righteousness as the result of our obedience, he also affirmed in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the law will be declared righteous, so the reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of the law is not in order to have a good enough performance because because of faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works done in order to earn it also upholds the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31).

Grace is a gift and gifts can't be earned, so grace is incompatible with works insofar as they are done in order to earn a wage, however, there are other reasons for doing works that are compatible with grace. For example, the content of a gift can be the experience of doing something such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari, where the give intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to experience driving it, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to experience driving it.

In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in obedience to the Law of God in order to become saved as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather our salvation intrinsically requires us to choose to be doers of those works because God graciously teaching us us to experience being doers of them is part of the content of His gift of salvation. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Christ accomplished in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is by becoming zealous for doin good works in obedience to the Law of God (Acts 21:20).

In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as there result of our works lest anyone should boast, God graciously teaching us to experience being doers of good works is nevertheless intrinsically part of His gift of salvation.

In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked, so verses that speak about those who are in Christ like Ephesians 1:1-14 are only speaking about those who are following his example of walking in obedience to the Law of God.

BrotherJJ said:

Of course sin has consequence & the consequence from sinning could manifest itself, in many different ways. A health issue, a broken relationship, disease, lost rewards earned etc. That being said the believers salvation is secure, simply stated, eternal life is ETRENAL!

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To use an analogy, there could be a house with and eternal power source and a laptop could be powered for eternity for as long as it remains plugged into the outlet, but it will eventually die if it becomes unplugged. We must remain in the vine.

BrotherJJ said:

The eternal outlet - unplugged laptop analogy assumes the very thing Scripture denies. That the believer is the one supplying the power, maintaining the connection & preserving the life. But Titus 3 & Ephesians 1 describe salvation as something God does to us, for us & in us, not something we sustain by our performance.

Titus 3 says God saved us ""not because of works of righteousness which we have done,"" but by the Holy Spirit's cleansing, regeneration & renewal poured out through Christ. That's not a power source we plug into. It's a new birth God performs.

Ephesians 1 says the moment we heard the gospel & believed, God sealed us with the Holy Spirit. His guarantee, not ours. A guarantee doesn't depend on the recipient maintaining it. It depends on the One who issued it.

Jesus' vine metaphor in John 15 doesn't contradict this. Branches don't ""power"" themselves by clinging harder. The life of the vine flows into the branch because the vine sustains it. If salvation depended on the branch maintaining its own connection, then salvation would be based on human performance. That's the very thing Titus 3 totally denies.

Scripture never teaches: Stay plugged in or you’ll lose eternal life. It teaches: You have eternal life because God gave it, sealed it & guarantees it.

Titus 3:8 says good works are ""excellent & profitable"" but they flow from salvation, not into it. They are the fruit of the Holy Spirit's work, not the condition for keeping the it.

If eternal life can be lost, then it was never eternal. If the guarantee depends on us, then it was never God's guarantee & if salvation rests on our performance, then we're only as secure as our best day.

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No, in the laptop analogy it would be God who is providing the power. In John 15, we are presented with a choice whether to remain in Christ or to be apart from him and we will bear much fruit when we remain in him. I did not say anything about beaches powering ourselves by clinging harder or about becoming plugged in as the result of our works. Again, verse that speak about those who are in Christ like Ephesians 1:1-14 are only speaking about those who are following his example of waking in obedience to the Law of God. Works neither flow from or into salvation, but rather the experience of being a doer of them is part of the content of the gift of salvation. I showed an example of how laptop can conditionally have eternal life for as long as it remains plugged into the outlet.

BrotherJJ said:

If You Must Maintain Eternal Life, It Was Never Eternal

Paul roots salvation in God' action, God's seal & God's guarantee, not our performance.

Scripture never presents salvation as something we maintain. Titus 3 says God saved us not by our works but by regeneration & renewal, an act done to us, not a system we keep running.

Ephesians 1 says we heard, believed & were SEALED with the Holy Spirit, it's God's eternal life guarantee. A guarantee that depends on our obedience isn't God's guarantee at all.

John 15 doesn't teach self sustained salvation, the vine supplies the life, not the branch.

Redefining ""in Christ"" as ""those who obey the Law"" replaces Paul's stated positional position & definition, which is belief in the gospel.

Titus 3:8 says good works flow from salvation, not preserve it. That creates the core contradiction: if eternal life can be lost, it isn't eternal; if the guarantee depends on us, it isn't God's & if salvation rests on performance, we're only as secure as our best day.

The biblical pattern is consistent, God saves, seals, preserves & good works follow as fruit, not conditions.

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If something something can be powered for eternity, then that is eternal life.

Obedience to the Law of God has absolutely nothing to with having a good enough performance. God's action is graciously teaching to experience being a doer of His law, which is how He is giving us His gift of saving us from not being a doer of it. In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so it someone is participating in that training in obedience to the Law of God through faith, but then rejects the content of their gift of salvation by doing what is ungodly and renouncing doing what is godly, righteous, and good, then they are no longer participating in that training and no longer have the content of their gift of salvation.

In Titus 3:5, is is speaking against becoming saved as the result of our works, so there are not works that we are required to have done first in order to become saved and we can't become saved even as the result of having had perfect obedience to the Law of God, but rather the experience of being a doer of the Law of God is the gift of salvation, which intrinsically requires us to be a doer of them in order to have that experience. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it, which requires our participation.

I did not claim that the branch provides life by that we need to remain in the vine in order to have life. If someone separates themselves from Christ and is no longer in the vine, then they no longer have eternal life.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of God was how his audience knew what sin is, so the way to believe the Gospel is by repenting and becoming a doer of the Law of God, which is the same as what it means to be in Christ. In Romans 15:18-19, Paul's Gospel brought Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed, and in Romans 10:16, 1 Peter 4:17, and 2 Thessalonians 1:8, they all speak against those who do not obey the Gospel. So 1 John 2:6 is in accordance with how Paul spoke about those who are in Christ.

Good works to not extrinsically flow from or into salvation, but rather the experience of being a doer of good works is intrinsically part of what salvation is.

BrotherJJ said:

You're redefining salvation into something the apostles never taught. Scripture never describes salvation as ""the experience of doing the Law""

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Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while our lives continued to be directed at being doers of sin, so there is an aspect of our gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present by repenting and redirecting our lives towards being doers of the Law of God, which is in accordance with Titus 2:11-13. Likewise, in Philippians 2:12, it says to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

The Hebrew word “yada” refers to intimate relationships/knowledge gained by experience, such as with Genesis 4:1 where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. God’s way is the way to know (yada) Him and Jesus by experiencing being in His likeness through embodying His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of His household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to graciously teach using how to experiencing having an intimate relationship with God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is His gift of eternal life.

In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, and something that we inherit is a gift, so he was speaking about what is intrinsically required in order to experience the gift of eternal life, not about the way to be good enough to earn it as the result.

BrotherJJ said:

or eternal life as ""remaining obedient enough to stay plugged in."" Those are your categories, not biblical ones.

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I said "Obedience to the Law of God has absolutely nothing to with having a good enough performance" and it is you who is trying to redefine that as "remaining obedient enough to stay plugged in".

BrotherJJ said:

Titus 2 doesn't say grace is salvation. It says grace trains those who are already saved. Training is sanctification, not justification. If training is salvation, then salvation is a lifelong process of performance, which contradicts Titus 3:5 where Paul says God saved us """not by works of righteousness which we have done.""

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It does not say that grace saves those who are already saved, but rather it describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do those works. It does not follow that if training is salvation then salvation is a lifelong proceed of performance. In Titus 3:5, is speaking against becoming saved as the result of our works, not against our salvation involving us being trained by grace to do works. Again, I gave an example of how a gift can intrinsically require us to do works in order to experience it, but where doing those works has nothing to do with contributing enough towards earning the gift.

BrotherJJ said:

Titus 3 doesn't say salvation is the experience of doing the Law. It says salvation is regeneration & renewal, God's act, not ours. Regeneration is a birth, not a behavior. A newborn doesn't ""remain born"" by performing well.

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in 1 John 3:4-10, those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God are not children of God, and in Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who are born of the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who are refuse to submit to being doers of the Law of God, so regeneration and renewal are nothing things that happen independently from the experience of being a doer of the Law of God.

BrotherJJ said:

You also redefined sin & salvation in a way the apostles never do. Yes, sin is lawlessness (1 Jn 3:4), but salvation from sin is not ""becoming a doer of the Law."" Paul says salvation is being justified freely by grace through faith (Rom 3:24) & that no one is justified by doing the Law (Rom 3:20).

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Being made to be doers of lawfulness is intrinsically part of the concept of being saved from being doers of lawlessness. We can't earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God because it was never given as a way of doing that in the first place (Romans 4:1-5), but it is also true that only the doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13), so there is a reason why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than having a good enough performance in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from those works also upholds the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31).

BrotherJJ said:

Your reading of John 15 also adds a condition Jesus never states. The vine gives life; the branch does not sustain it. If eternal life depends on the branch maintaining its own connection, then eternal life is only as eternal as our performance.

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Again, I agree that the vine gives life and that the branch does not sustain it and I have not suggested otherwise. Jesus said that every branch in him that does not bear fruit he takes away and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes that I may bear more fruit. Jesus said that whoever abides in him and he in them, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from him we can do nothing and that if anyone does not abide in him he is thrown away like a branch that withers. Jesus said that if we keep his commandments we will abide in his love just as he kept his Father's commandments and abide in his love.

BrotherJJ said:

Your definition of ""in Christ"" is also not Paul's. Paul defines ""in Christ"" as those who heard the gospel & believed it (Eph 1:13). You define it as ""those who obey the Law."" That replaces Paul's positional statement with a behavioral one.

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Those who hear and and believe the Gospel are the same as those who obey the Law (Matthew 4:15-23), so that is in accordance with Paul's position.

BrotherJJ said:

Your system ultimately makes obedience something that preserves salvation. But Paul says the Holy Spirit is the seal & guarantee of our inheritance (Eph 1:13–14). A guarantee that depends on the recipient maintaining it is not a guarantee at all.

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You keep trying to treat obedience as if it is extrinsic to salvation when it is intrinsic to it. Obedience does not preserve salvation, but rather it is intrinsically salvation from disobedience. The Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of God (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

BrotherJJ said:

And that brings us back to the core issue: If eternal life can be lost, it was never eternal. If God's guarantee depends on us, it was never God's guarantee & if salvation rests on performance, we are only as secure as our best day.

The apostles preach one order: Grace > Faith > Salvation > Obedience.

Your system reverses it into: Obedience > Participation > Retention > Salvation.

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Again, salvation does not rest on our performance and that is not my system, so you are burning a straw man.

BrotherJJ said:

Your system ultimately makes obedience something that preserves salvation.

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Basically old covenant religion. Obey all the law handed down at Sanai, to preserve being in a righteous state(Deut6:25)