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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Neighbor/Sojourner/Stranger/Immigrant
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weary2025
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I've met white democrats who were racist against blacks and black democrats who were racist against whites. Most republicans want to get past racism in my opinion. Their motivation isn't race but freedom and prosperity. I dont support republicans but I was one once so I know what they think
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Well, I guess you told me. But foolishly I will offer this thought. The crux of the matter is not what is 'cruelty'. The crux of the matter is that "there are actual federal laws in the United States". That is the lie. All laws in the United States, federal included, are subject to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. And that, in turn, is built on the Declaration of Independence. The founders of this country made it very plain.
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." Those are the inalienable Rights that ICE is violating. That is the crux of the matter. And I applaud all American patriots who oppose ICE as they trample on those inalienable rights.
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Oompa Loompa
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Yes I did.
Yes. In a place called "reality," federal laws exists.
Then we are done. I stopped reading after this comment. I do not think a conversation can be fruitful with someone who denies the existence of federal laws. Laws that were set in place by congress in accordance with the Constitution of the United States. Therefore, you are not to be taken seriously.
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stevevw
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The reality is we live in a different world. I loook at immigration in a similar way to your home. Would you leave your home open to anyone and allow them to come in and live.
If you were to have someone live in your home I am sure that you would want to make sure they were ok for yourself and your family. Otherwise you are neglecting your duty to to them safe.
There is no nation on earth who have open borders. All require a process of qualification whether for holiday, work or permanent immigration. I have been an immigrant and has to go through the process. It actually allows the person better support as you are then registered and connected. Instead of someone living under the radar on the black market economy.
Illegal immigrantion is connected to drugs, human trafficking, child sexual abuse, slave labor and creating a black economy that encourages tax evasion and fraud as we seen with Minnesota. It has led to murder, abuse and rape of women and child abuse.
So if we are talking about the moral or Christian right thing to do. Then theres more than one way to look at this.
But I think someone mentioned earlier about Christians obeying their rulers as these are installed by God. So regardless of political opinion I think Christians need to set the example and obey the rulers. Which means obeying the laws including immigration law. This is the same law that previous admins have had.
Why has it suddenly become a problem. I think as Christians we need to do what Paul said and pray for our rulers. If people don't like a rulers laws then change them democratically.
But I don't think Christians should be activists fighting in some culture war on the streets trying to obstruct law enforcement. That just makes them the same as the world and all other activists groups out on the streets.
If you were to have someone live in your home I am sure that you would want to make sure they were ok for yourself and your family. Otherwise you are neglecting your duty to to them safe.
There is no nation on earth who have open borders. All require a process of qualification whether for holiday, work or permanent immigration. I have been an immigrant and has to go through the process. It actually allows the person better support as you are then registered and connected. Instead of someone living under the radar on the black market economy.
Illegal immigrantion is connected to drugs, human trafficking, child sexual abuse, slave labor and creating a black economy that encourages tax evasion and fraud as we seen with Minnesota. It has led to murder, abuse and rape of women and child abuse.
So if we are talking about the moral or Christian right thing to do. Then theres more than one way to look at this.
But I think someone mentioned earlier about Christians obeying their rulers as these are installed by God. So regardless of political opinion I think Christians need to set the example and obey the rulers. Which means obeying the laws including immigration law. This is the same law that previous admins have had.
Why has it suddenly become a problem. I think as Christians we need to do what Paul said and pray for our rulers. If people don't like a rulers laws then change them democratically.
But I don't think Christians should be activists fighting in some culture war on the streets trying to obstruct law enforcement. That just makes them the same as the world and all other activists groups out on the streets.
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When these issues come to the Supreme Court, just like the tariffs, it will be obviously ruled against because they are clearly unconstitutional. I am not referring to immigration. I am referring to the unconstitutional violation of human rights. And, if you wish, we can be done conversing.
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Oompa Loompa
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Well, when someone questions the existence of federal laws, it makes it very difficult for people to believe they are conversing with someone rational, reasonable, or sane. I mean, are federal courts and federal judges a mythical beast?, considering you were the one who claimed the crux of the issue is the existence of federal law. Why even pay federal taxes since the federal tax code and the IRS is just some urban legend? The alternative is that we just pretend that your ridiculous comment never actually happened and we can get back to reality by giving a proper response to my comment.
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DaisyDay
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What an odd remark.
I assume sincere good faith opinion unless given good reason to doubt it, but that is only my own default assumption; other people have their own assumptions for reasons of their own.
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Well, I think we should clarify some terms here.
It's a common mistake for people to equate rabbi with "pastor/minister/priest". The only reason I know some of this is because one wing my extended family is Jewish.
It's not uncommon for a particular synagogue to have several men who technically hold the title of Rabbi, who aren't actually part of the clergy.
It's because Rabbi is an ordination title/credential, and not necessarily an authoritative job title (like Priest or Pastor may be)
Perhaps the best way I can describe it would be to use a comparison to military titles.
In Christian churches, having the title of Pastor would be akin to being a General.
In many local synagogues, merely holding the title of Rabbi could be more akin to being like a Sergeant
The "RAV" (senior rabbi), Cantor, and Mara d'Atra are the ones who would be more akin to the authoritative positions Christians are familiar with.
Having said all that, it's very possible for there to be a "progressive" rabbi much like certain people from Christian denominations can be progressive, and opt to focus on the parts of their respective holy books that more align with their political viewpoint.
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This isn't unlike how it works in some churches. There are various kinds of clergy, priests can be rectors, curates, vicars, etc. depending on their particular status or role. Some of those are equivalent to "associate pastor" in other Protestant churches. All of them would have various kinds of authority as elders. It's different from somebody merely giving a political opinion, too, since it's expected the priests or elders are formed by their religious tradition, and based on what I know about Judaism, I don't think its any different. You're expected to know something about what you are talking about and not merely be instrumentalizing the religion for a partisan political end.
The insistence that everyone deserves to have their dignity respected also isn't a partisan political position, it's endemic in Judaism and Christianity in the modern world, there is widespread opposition among Catholic bishops to Trump's immigration enforcement policies, even though most Catholic bishops political alignment is more complicated than the simple "Left-right" political divisions of mainstream political discourse, with some being more or less aligned with the Republican party in recent years.
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I think a bunch of people in Gaza may have a different opinion about whether or not respect for human dignity is endemic in Judaism, but that's another subject.
Appealing to a clergyman and religious authority to back up a political stance is the proverbial "orchard that's ripe for cherry picking"
(because you can always find some that on either side of a political issue)
Hence the reason why you can find some Christian churches that are preaching hellfire and brimstone about gay marriage, and others that sticking rainbow flags up on their churches.
Finding some religious leaders who say "we should welcome the migrants" isn't the mechanism by which we can shape immigration policy.
In a secular nation, we shouldn't be using those types of appeals for any public policy making.
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The issue for me is not that the laws exist, but that they are unconstitutional. And soon to be annulled by the Supreme Court, just as the tariffs were. Just as soldiers may refuse when ordered to violate the Constitution. etc. It is patriotic (and Christian) to oppose unconstitutional actions. Especially those causing unnecessary harm to humans. Immigration enforcement has no need nor right to assault humans, immigrant , protestor or otherwise. If you want a rational discussion let us discuss the morality of government agents violating the constitution and senselessly, unnecessarily and without provocation assaulting people.
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Say it aint so
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Yes. A whole list of countries of brown and black people.
Not on the status removal list: Ukrainians.
Those offered asylum by Trump: South Africa (whites only)
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Oh come on. The Bible is chock full of things that Conservatives don't obey. It doesn't prevent them from using the Bible to excuse their participation in sustaining today's social inequities. Anyway, I happen to like a lot of what the Bible teaches. It's one of the main reasons that I am a liberal. (and Christian)
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Just like in ancient Israel, court prophets are everywhere.
The job of a court prophet is to explain the regime's policies in pious tones, to broke power between the religious establishment and the regime itself.
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The debate you present is long standing. I disagree with it. But, that debate is a political one. The Biblical definition of neighbor given in the referenced article is accurate. So, I understand you disagree with its message. But the exegesis itself is correct. And as a Christian it comports with my faith and it is my hope others may also be influenced by faith to seek a more just and effective way to deal with today's American immigrants.
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