Christian nationalist pastor McPherson: "Empathy is aligned with hell."

o_mlly said:

? Why are you looking to argue when none is needed? Hobbes fidelity to Christianity does not matter; his insight does. Do you disagree that w/o Christ our lives would be more like the lives Hobbes described?

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Ok. Let's not argue anymore about how empathy is a legitimate value.

FireDragon76 said:

Lots of eastern patristic theology wouldn't portray salvation in that manner, as merely "plan B".

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In His eternal, omniscient, and immutable mind, there could be no "plan B"; only "plan A". Augustine recognized such in labeling the cause of original sin as felix culpa. I suppose we, who experience sequentially rather than eternally, might see that as a "plan B".

o_mlly said:

In His eternal, omniscient, and immutable mind, there could be no "plan B"; only "plan A". Augustine recognized such in labeling the cause of original sin as felix culpa. I suppose we, who experience sequentially rather than eternally, might see that as a "plan B".

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In both the Scotist and more eastern understanding of soteriology, suppose God created a world where sin never happened... would God still become man? Yes, of course, because communion, not cancelling a juridical debt or taking on a penalty, is the end or purpose of salvation. Cancelling of debts is more of a consequence, not a cause. Salvation says more about the goodness and dignity of creation than it does about its fallenness, in this perspective.

Empathy to me is feeling other people's heart where they suffer and struggle. Its not about justifying sin.

FireDragon76 said:

In both the Scotist and more eastern understanding of soteriology, suppose God created a world where sin never happened... would God still become man? Yes, of course, ...

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A supposal (like C. S. Lewis)?

Possibly, but not "of course". For who can scrutinize the mind of God?

FireDragon76 said:

... because communion, not cancelling a juridical debt or taking on a penalty, is the end or purpose of salvation. ...

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But Adam did sin. If mankind did not disobey God then why would there be a need for his salvation, i.e., the deliverance of the soul from sin and its consequences. Tend the garden, be fruitful and multiply ... immortality, oneness with God, preternatural gifts -- would that not be a life well-lived?.

FireDragon76 said:

Cancelling of debts is more of a consequence, not a cause.

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An All-just God, the One who requires at-one-ment, is the cause of the Incarnation.

FireDragon76 said:

Salvation says more about the goodness and dignity of creation than it does about its fallenness, in this perspective.

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Prior to Adam's sin, creation was good; God proclaimed it to be so.

So, what does Christ mean to a world made by God in perfect order and disrupted by original sin? The Summa attempts to answer that question, an answer that has been satisfactory for centuries: Christ has restored the original order of the world. Christian theology has described the religion of order, and its doctrines are about a return to original order.

Multiple theologies underpinning a soteriology are interdependent and, to remain systematic, must cohere. For instance, the Catechism of the Catholic Church points out, “. . . we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ” (110). To be respected, a speculative theology of salvation, indeed, must address simultaneously and coherently our sizeable deposit of faith.

o_mlly said:

Our shared fallen humanity does require the grace of Christ's sacrifice, and His prophetic witness in order to achieve our personal transformation. Hobbes saw as much. Who better than Christ is there to socially contract with?

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My understanding of Christian theology, shaped by studying both patristic sources and neopatristic theology, doesn't lead me to conclude that one must be a confessional Christian or live in a confessionally Christian state to recognize what we would call natural law. It's a basic idea in classical Protestant thought that Jesus's human nature and particularly doesn't "enclose" the Logos or Reason, and it's also consistent with what I know of patristic theology as well. To my knowledge, this is close to the teachings of the Catholic Church (Lumens Gentium), that while the fullness of revelation is found in the Church's teachings, this doesn't imply that the Church encloses all truth, or that other religions or worldviews are necessarily divorced from participation in God's creative and redemptive activity. When we see a non-Christian living out recognizeable virtues, this isn't an exception to a rule, but demonstrates a deeper coherence in the Christian worldview than merely a strictly nominalist account of salvation or formalistic account of grace.

FireDragon76 said:

My understanding of Christian theology, shaped by studying both patristic sources and neopatristic theology, doesn't lead me to conclude that one must be a confessional Christian or live in a confessionally Christian state to recognize what we would call natural law. It's a basic idea in classical Protestant thought that Jesus's human nature and particularly doesn't "enclose" the Logos or Reason, and it's also consistent with what I know of patristic theology as well. To my knowledge, this is close to the teachings of the Catholic Church (Lumens Gentium), that while the fullness of revelation is found in the Church's teachings, this doesn't imply that the Church encloses all truth, or that other religions or worldviews are necessarily divorced from participation in God's creative and redemptive activity. When we see a non-Christian living out recognizeable virtues, this isn't an exception to a rule, but demonstrates a deeper coherence in the Christian worldview than merely a strictly nominalist account of salvation or formalistic account of grace.

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Grace is a mystery.

Karl Rahner, a Jesuit priest and theologian, had a strong influence in the Second Vatican Council. Rahner calls grace the “supernatural existential,” or God’s self-communication, and he understands grace to be a fundamental dimension of being human, affecting all people at all times.

Describing the “supernatural existential,” or indwelling grace as God’s self-communication is similar to the explanation of conscience in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which reads: