We must do the commandments in 1John 3:20-24 to bear fruit

fli · Wednesday at 4:20 AM

fhansen said:
Well, I'm sure not going to interpret that in some wooden fashion as if Paul was meaning to state more than the goal or purpose and hope for the young man. Or maybe Paul had some specific foreknowledge about that individual but either way there are far too many passages in Scripture warning believers that anyone doing such things will not enter heaven, or warning that there's no repentance for those who've tasted of the heavenly gift and then rejected it, or for those who've escaped the pollution of the world by the knowledge of Chrsit and then returned to their pigsty- to think that believers are somehow forced to ultimately obey or are immunized from turning back away from God. But:

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 14-15

I didn't think with your doctrine that you could explain that event. You do not believe the you man was saved at the time Paul wrote the epistle.

Acts 18:9 Now the Lord spoke to Paul in the night by a vision, "Do not be afraid, but speak, and do not keep silent; 10 for I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city." 11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them. NKJV

Above is what Jesus told Paul when he first started the church in Corinth. God had many people in that city. The church had many true believers.

Acts 15:23-29

23 They wrote this, letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:
Greetings.
24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law" — to whom we gave no such commandment — 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. NKJV

I have included the letter that the Jerusalem council sent to the Churches informing them they did not have to be circumcised. I included this letter so you could see that the church was established after the council informed the churches of the things they wanted them to do. Paul would have told the Corinthian Church of what the council expected of the churches when he established the church.

In addition to them not being circumcised they included a list of items from the law that they wanted the Churches to observe. Please note that the council said the Church would do well if they kept themselves from those things. They wanted the Church to avoid eating meat sacrificed to idols, avoid eating blood, avoid eating meat from strangled animals and abstain from sexual immorality.

These are thing the Jews found offensive. I know that you will believe that the churches had to obey in order to prove they were saved. But the fact that the council told them to abstain from doing those things means God does not enable and make true believers do those things in order to be justified.

1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, 5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. NKJV

I have included the above to once again say that Paul was writing to true believers who were called by God. They were called because they were of the elect. In addition, Paul states the church was well gifted with the gifts supplied by the Holy Spirit to ensure the church thrive and glorify God.

Now ask yourself just why did God, who had supplied the gifts to ensure the church would grow and thrive, let the church act as it did? Because God wanted to provide His church, later churches, with a bible to help us understand and interpret a correct doctrine. Just like the OT helps us understand what we are to do, so also the events in Corinth. The Corinthian epistles are important to help us understand and form correct doctrine.

I think your doctrine is a doctrine of death. You had better start to believe and try to understand what Paul wrote in the epistles. God does not force us to obey. God let's each of us determine just how we will glorify God and how many crowns we are to earn. The greater our effort to glorify God, the more God will trust to do important work in heaven.

fli · Thursday at 8:01 AM

fhansen said:
No, this is sometimes referred to as "fiduciary faith", faith in one's faith which opposes or misunderstands the correct role of faith which is to establish the right, just, and vital relationship with God that man was created for.

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NKJV

If we keep His 2 commandments, we keep abiding in Him and He in us. That means we are still saved and declared righteous. If we are keeping the first commandment and not the second commandment God will deal with that through discipline. If God kills us in discipline, we will die physically and go to heaven. If we have to do works to get into heaven, it is a salvation of works. As it is our salvation depend upon our believing God.

Romans 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. NKJV

God did not punish anyone for violations of the law, for their sins. God justified people if they believed God as Abraham did. He punished those who did \believe God. He did not punish for their sins, but for not believing God. Sins did not send people to hell in the OT and sins will not send people to hell after Jesus died. Throughout history the only thing that people will be sent to hell for is not believing God.

Isaiah 41:22 "Let them bring forth and show us what will happen; Let them show the former things, what they were, That we may consider them, And know the latter end of them; Or declare to us things to come. NKJV

Isaiah 46:8 "Remember this, and show yourselves men; Recall to mind, O you transgressors. 9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet

Both the above scriptures say if you know how something began, you will know how it will end.

Genesis 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': NKJV

Sin and death began for man when Adam heeded the voice of Eve and ate the fruit. When Adam ate the fruit, it proved that he did not believe God. Sin and death began when man did not believe God.

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. NKJV

Sin and death end for man when man believes God.

fhansen · Thursday at 10:19 AM

fli said:
1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NKJV

If we keep His 2 commandments, we keep abiding in Him and He in us. That means we are still saved and declared righteous. If we are keeping the first commandment and not the second commandment God will deal with that through discipline. If God kills us in discipline, we will die physically and go to heaven. If we have to do works to get into heaven, it is a salvation of works. As it is our salvation depend upon our believing God.

Romans 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. NKJV

God did not punish anyone for violations of the law, for their sins. God justified people if they believed God as Abraham did. He punished those who did \believe God. He did not punish for their sins, but for not believing God. Sins did not send people to hell in the OT and sins will not send people to hell after Jesus died. Throughout history the only thing that people will be sent to hell for is not believing God.

Isaiah 41:22 "Let them bring forth and show us what will happen; Let them show the former things, what they were, That we may consider them, And know the latter end of them; Or declare to us things to come. NKJV

Isaiah 46:8 "Remember this, and show yourselves men; Recall to mind, O you transgressors. 9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet

Both the above scriptures say if you know how something began, you will know how it will end.

Genesis 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': NKJV

Sin and death began for man when Adam heeded the voice of Eve and ate the fruit. When Adam ate the fruit, it proved that he did not believe God. Sin and death began when man did not believe God.

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. NKJV

Sin and death end for man when man believes God.

Sorry, no, "The wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23), always has been since that first sin of disobiedence in Eden. All other sins flowed from that first one that estranged man from God and His moral authority but, once reconciled with Him through faith (yes, Adam's sin was an act of disbelief), with love now added, the ingredient missing in Eden, the ingredient that God always intended to cultivate in man as we finally begin to turn way from evil and embrace the good, the love that He shows us and that produces obedience by it's nature, sin begins to depart. To respond to and embrace that love is to embrace Him, to put Him above all else, to eat from the Tree of Life now made accessible to us again, which Adam obviously failed to do. "We love Him because He first loved us." Since "love fulfills the law" (Rom 13:10), love and sin are mutully exclusive which is why John can say what he said:

"All who have this hope in Him purify themselves, just as He is pure. Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that He appeared so that He might take away our sins. And in Him is no sin. No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him." 1 John 1:2-6

"Anyone who does not love remains in death."
"This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us." 1 John 3:14,16

Again, justice and being just are inseparable, meaning that in order for us to love (which you apparently agree we must do), God must do more for us than forgive our sins at justification; He must give us that love, that righteousness as per Rom 5:5. The following directive holds as true under the new covenant as it was under the old-while only the new covenant actually gives us the grace to accomplish it:

'He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

So if, by the Spirit, we're putting to death the deeds/sins of the flesh, if we're producing good fruit, if were loving, IOW, then we know that we've entered, and remained in, Him.

Basil of Caesarea, a 4th century believer, put it this way
“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for Him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”

And the Church, quoting a later believer, can rightly teach:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

The real truth to comprehend here is that the gifts of faith, hope, and love are also choices, for us to accept and act upon. And this means we can also abandon them, we can abandon Him. No one knows with 100% certainty that they're among the elect, that they'll turn out to be good soil, that they'll persevere, But we'll know them most surely by their love in any case. And that's what Jesus will be judging in 2 Cor 5:10 when He assesses what we've done in this life for good or bad, and not for some prizes or rewards in heaven but for our eternal destinies,

Sin and death end for man to the extent that he's in a state of communion with God, founded on faith and blossoming into the love that overcomes the sin that earns us death. And that's a cooperative effort, with Him leading and us following.

"The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6

fli · Thursday at 2:00 PM

fhansen said:
Sorry, no, "The wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23), always has been since that first sin of disobiedence in Eden.

You are correct all sin will be punished. And who will be the judge to determine sin?

John 5:22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, NKJV

Jesus will determine who sins. No one except Jesus will determine sin. Not you, the Church or commentary writers. Jesus and Jesus alone will determine sin. And just who will He condemn?

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God NKJVJ

Jesus has set the standard that He will judge by already. He will condemn everyone who does not believe in Him. Why will those who believe in Jesus not be condemned?

1 John 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. NKJV

Because anyone found in Jesus at judgment time is not in sin. And who are those who will be found to abide in Him at their judgment?

1 John 3:21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NKJV

If we keep do things pleasing in His sight and the 2 commandments, we have confidence that that we have what we ask of Him. But if we just keep the 2 commandments we will be found to abide in Him at our time of being judged.

fhansen · Thursday at 2:17 PM

fli said:
Because anyone found in Jesus at judgment time is not in sin. And who are those who will be found to abide in Him at their judgment?

We either sin or we don't-and God certainly doesn't pretend that we're not sinners when we are. If we are in Him we won't sin, certainly not in some persistent and egregious manner. John said it best, plainly:

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:7-10

Anyway, there are many verses that flesh out what is implied in believing and loving and remaining in Him and gaining eternal life, and they're related to walking in the Spirit now, overcoming sin in any case, producing good fruit, doing good, obeying, being merciful, by that love.

fli · Thursday at 4:09 PM

fhansen said:
We either sin or we don't-and God certainly doesn't pretend that we're not sinners when we are. If we are in Him we won't sin, certainly not in some persistent and egregious manner. John said it best, plainly:

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:7-10

Anyway, there are many verses that flesh out what is implied in believing and loving and remaining in Him and gaining eternal life, and they're related to walking in the Spirit now, overcoming sin in any case, producing good fruit, doing good, obeying, being merciful, by that love.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. NKJV

Everyone in Him sins.

1 John 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. NKJV

Yet John said, “in Him is no sin.” How can that be? Everyone in Him sins, yet there is no sin in Him.

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NKJV

Jesus even said that “in Him” there is no sin. If there was sin in those who believe in Him, they would be condemned. At the same time that Jesus said there was no condemnation for those who believe in Him, He said that all those who dd not believe in Him were condemned. How can Jesus say those who believe in Him, are not condemned when everyone in Him sins, and everyone who doesn't believe in Him is condemned, If both those “in Him” and those not in Him are sinning, , how can those who believe not be condemned and non-believers be condemned?

2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. NKJV

If God does not impute sin to the world how can God condemn them and not condemn believers? Both of them are sinning, how can God, who is just, condemn non-believers and not condemn believers?

God makes the rules about sin. The law only defined sin. It did not determine who is “in sin”. God determines who is “in sin.”

Father God says: John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. NKJV

The Son of God says: John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." NKJV

The Holy Spirit of God says: John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. NKJV

this is the New Testament law of who is in sin . The entire God head says that people who believe in Jesus are not in sin. Now go ahead and call God a liar.

fhansen · Thursday at 6:13 PM

fli said:
Everyone in Him sins.

And yet if we confess our sins He will "cleanse us from all unrighteousness." So which is it? Can we remain in our sins, regardless of how wanton and ugly, and still expect to enter heaven, or not? Scripture says such a one will not enter heaven.

fhansen · Thursday at 6:18 PM

fli said:
Now go ahead and call God a liar.

I don't have to-I'll just call you: one suffering from Reformed Theology Syndrome, based on misinterpretation and selective reading of Scripture that requires ignoring anything that doesn't comply with one's preferred understanding. Fortunately most Christians pretty well live their lives as if what they do, guided by the Spirit, counts, towards their eternal destinies- despite whatever theology they may profess.

fli · 2026-02-20T04:01:46-0600

fhansen said:
I don't have to-I'll just call you: one suffering from Reformed Theology Syndrome, based on misinterpretation and selective reading of Scripture that requires ignoring anything that doesn't comply with one's preferred understanding. Fortunately most Christians pretty well live their lives as if what they do, guided by the Spirit, counts, towards their eternal destinies- despite whatever theology they may profess.

It is obvious to me from what you have said that you do not believe God. If you did you would know that Jesus, make us righteous without any work from us. Yes, God gives us all the tools when we first believe. The main tool that He gives us is "all we need do is to keep believing in Jesus and we will be saved." You obviously believe that the church, or Pope and not God's Word, determines when a person is in sin.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. 16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. NKJV

Christ died for all therefore all died. Since everyone died, they should not live for themselves but for Jesus. If anyone in the world is not living for Jesus, they are not doing what God requires of them. That means they will die, either eternally or under discipline. Therefore, anyone not in Jesus is in sin. That is the new law in the new covenant.

fhansen · 2026-02-20T09:51:43-0600

fli said:
If you did you would know that Jesus, make us righteous without any work from us.

Well, the above is what I believe-as I've stated: that righteousness comes from God alone (justification consists of more than forgiveness of sin) and that, as long as we remain in Him, that righteousness will remain in us, and grow. If not, if were sinning like the devil in thought, word, and/or deed, then we haven't remained in Him.

fli said:
Christ died for all therefore all died. Since everyone died, they should not live for themselves but for Jesus. If anyone in the world is not living for Jesus, they are not doing what God requires of them. That means they will die, either eternally or under discipline.

Yes, if they're not living for Him-and like Him-they will die-they're already cut off from the life-giving Vine, at least until a new change of heart and confession of sin.

fli said:
Therefore, anyone not in Jesus is in sin.

And this is where the waters start getting muddy. Are they not in sin because they're truly overcoming sin, or because of some ethereal vicarious sinlessless? The church fought this battle eons ago, with the very early church actually on the side of no repentance possible for those who fell back into obvious serious sin after turning from the world and becoming Christian-basically the opposite position from that of many today even though Scripture appears to support this view in various places. Soon, however, based on a deeper understanding of God's mercy, love, and purpose, the church began to teach that, while we'll continue to sin, absolute perfect sinlessness is not required in this life and yet wanton, grave sin-sin that strikes directly and harmfully against love of God and neighbor and destroys love in us, will, by its nature, cut us off from Him, will kill us.

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We must do the commandments in 1John 3:20-24 to bear fruit

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