Call upon the Name of the Lord and you shall be Saved.

Jeffrey Bowden · Saturday at 7:15 AM

keras said:
(Staff edit)
I like your bylines.
I know the Lord has much for me to do yet.

How do Revelation 3:10 and 1 Thessalonians 5:9 say we are to be ‘kept from the hour of trial’ and ‘not destined for retribution’?

They are in the context of: Hold on to what you have, [your faith] let no one rob you of your crown. [your reward] Keep sober, armed with faith and love…..continue to encourage one another.

When we examine the Greek word ‘peirasmos’, translated as ‘trial’ in Rev. 3, we see it doesn’t match with ‘thlipsis’, used in Matthew 24:21; which refers to the Great Tribulation. 1 Thess. 5 is in the context of a sudden destruction the Lord is going to send upon the ungodly peoples. We should not be in the dark about it, knowing what it will be and be prepared for it, spiritually and physically.

For those who stand firm in faith and love, there are two theories. One is a rapture removal to heaven, the other is the Lord’s protection during that time of trouble.
I discount the rapture because such a thing as a general removal of the Lord’s people has never happened before, the Israelites and how Christians have always had to face attacks, persecution and disasters. God doesn’t change, Malachi 3:6, and what happened in the past was symbolic and examples for us, upon whom the end of the age is coming: 1 Corinthians 10:6 Besides the fact that a mass rapture of Christians to heaven in the end times, is nowhere prophesied or found in the Bible.

Protection does have a precedent; the three men in the furnace, Daniel 3:19-27 But scriptures like Psalms 23 and Isaiah 43:2 ….walk thru fire and you will not be scorched…. plus over 30 other prophesies assuring safety and protection through what is to come. Jesus prayed for this in John 17:15 and promises like; Zephaniah 2:3, 2 Peter 2:9, Psalms 91:1-16, Jeremiah 17:7-8, Isaiah 26:20 are a great comfort and support when trouble strikes.

It’s simple, really; we are plainly told what to do on the terrible Day of the Lord: Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21
NOT removed but protected, to continue on serving the Lord on earth.

Keras, you're quoting from 1 Cor 15:52 out of context and way out of sequence.

Here's the Scriptural sequence:

1 Th 5:3 will happen soon.

Believers will be KEPT FROM the Trib (Rev 3:10) by being raptured to Heaven (Rev 4:1). 1 Cor 15:52 occurs with 1 Th 4:16-17.
We are behind clouds and in the air (1 Th 4:17). We are thereby perfectly positioned for the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10).

Rev will cycle to Rev 6:1-2. Unbelievers, only, remain on Earth to be tried by God's 21 judgments of wrath.

keras · Saturday at 9:57 AM

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Keras, you're quoting from 1 Cor 15:52 out of context and way out of sequence.

Your policy is to ignore proofs that refute the rapture theory.

1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is a prophecy about what will happen after the GWT Judgment. Rev 20:11-15
ONLY THEN; is Death no more; Rev 21:4 People die now and they will in the Millennium; Isaiah 65:20

There HAS to be the Judgment before anyone is given Eternal life.

ARBITER01 · Saturday at 10:09 AM

keras said:
Your policy is to ignore proofs that refute the rapture theory.

1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is a prophecy about what will happen after the GWT Judgment. Rev 20:11-15
ONLY THEN; is Death no more; Rev 21:4 People die now and they will in the Millennium; Isaiah 65:20

There HAS to be the Judgment before anyone is given Eternal life.

No wonder you are in the controversial section, none of us in the denominational sections would ever agree with you.

keras · Saturday at 2:30 PM

ARBITER01 said:
No wonder you are in the controversial section, none of us in the denominational sections would ever agree with you.

Yes; I got blasted with my thread - BUSTED -12 false theories Refuted.
And why do I not get any agreement? Because Church teachings and their vivid imaginings have confused and deceived them.
But abuse was all I got, no one properly refuted me.

It's the same with this issue of when Eternal Life is conferred.
Jesus said: Believe in Me and you shall have Eternal life. He made a Promise, He did not say you would get it as soon as you believed.
People die and funeral celebrants piously say: he/she as gone to heaven..... This is a little white lie to console the bereaved.

The dead know nothing, .....The dead 'sleep' in their graves,.... The dead await the Last Trumpet call.... THESE scriptures are the Truth!!!!!
Those whose names are found in the Book of Life at the final Judgment, are the ones that 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 applies to.
Note: That those faithful Christians who will be living [physically] at the end of the Millennium, will never die.

Jeffrey Bowden · Saturday at 2:50 PM

keras said:
Your policy is to ignore proofs that refute the rapture theory.

1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is a prophecy about what will happen after the GWT Judgment. Rev 20:11-15
ONLY THEN; is Death no more; Rev 21:4 People die now and they will in the Millennium; Isaiah 65:20

There HAS to be the Judgment before anyone is given Eternal life.

Keras, there are three judgments, one for the Church (Judgment Seat of Christ, 2 Cor 5:10), one for those who are judged immediately after Armageddon (Sheep and Goats, Matt 25:31-46), and then the GWTJ, after the Millennium; Rev 20:11-15).

No one is judged twice. You need to recognize who gets judged and when. You're failing to heed the wording in Rev 20:11-15, wherein it makes crystal clear that only "the dead" (those unbelievers who died in sin) are judged in the GWTJ. Here are quotes from the related verses:

From Rev 20:12: And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne,

More from verse 12: ... The dead
were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Verses 13-14:
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.

Keras, you've got to go by the context ("the dead" -- those who died in sin). Only they are judged in the GWTJ.

keras said:
Your policy is to ignore proofs that refute the rapture theory.

1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is a prophecy about what will happen after the GWT Judgment. Rev 20:11-15
ONLY THEN; is Death no more; Rev 21:4 People die now and they will in the Millennium; Isaiah 65:20

There HAS to be the Judgment before anyone is given Eternal life.

Keras, there will be three judgments: The Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10); the judgment of the sheep and goats immediately after Armageddon (Matt 25:31-46?); and the GWTJ.

The Judgment Seat of Christ judges the Church, in Heaven, immediately after Rev 4:1, the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

After Armageddon, the survivors of the Trib are judged: Matt 25:31-46.

After the Millennium, the GWTJ. Keras, "the dead" are the only folks cited in Rev 20:11-15. "The dead" appears four times in those five verses. When are you going to admit that the GWTJ only judges those who died in sin?

Jeffrey Bowden · Saturday at 5:05 PM

keras said:
Your policy is to ignore proofs that refute the rapture theory.

1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is a prophecy about what will happen after the GWT Judgment. Rev 20:11-15
ONLY THEN; is Death no more; Rev 21:4 People die now and they will in the Millennium; Isaiah 65:20

There HAS to be the Judgment before anyone is given Eternal life.

False. 1 Cor 15:52 works with 1 Th 4:16-17 before the Judgment Seat of Christ. We will obtain eternal life from 1 Cor 15:52 immediately before the Judgment Seat of Christ.

You can't disprove Rev 4:1 being the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

Jeffrey Bowden · Saturday at 10:00 PM

Jeffrey Bowden said:
False. 1 Cor 15:52 works with 1 Th 4:16-17 before the Judgment Seat of Christ. We will obtain eternal life from 1 Cor 15:52 immediately before the Judgment Seat of Christ.

You can't disprove Rev 4:1 being the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

Keras, you failed to refute my assertions. Your assertions have been refuted.

Try comparing the wording of 1 Cor 15:52 with 1 Th 4:16-17. You will see that those verses work exclusively together. In other words, those verses can't fit in any other context. That is remarkable perfection by God Almighty. All glory to God!

The three judgments (Judgment Seat of Christ, Sheep & Goats, and the GWTJ) all occur in the air. 1 Th 4:17 positions us behind clouds and in the air. Paul said in 2 Tim 4:8 that the Judgment Seat of Christ will occur "on that day," the day of the pre-Trib rapture. 1 Th 4:17 sets up that judgment perfectly.

In other words, the verses cited above all work together perfectly. You are thoroughly refuted.

Jeffrey Bowden · Sunday at 4:52 AM

keras said:
Your policy is to ignore proofs that refute the rapture theory.

1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is a prophecy about what will happen after the GWT Judgment. Rev 20:11-15
ONLY THEN; is Death no more; Rev 21:4 People die now and they will in the Millennium; Isaiah 65:20

There HAS to be the Judgment before anyone is given Eternal life.

Keras, you failed to refute my assertions. Your assertions have been refuted.

Try comparing the wording of 1 Cor 15:52 with 1 Th 4:16-17. You will see that those verses work exclusively together. In other words, those verses can't fit in any other context. That is remarkable perfection by God Almighty. All glory to God!

The three judgments (Judgment Seat of Christ, Sheep & Goats, and the GWTJ) all occur in the air. 1 Th 4:17 positions us behind clouds and in the air. Paul said in 2 Tim 4:8 that the Judgment Seat of Christ will occur "on that day," the day of the pre-Trib rapture. 1 Th 4:17 sets up that judgment perfectly.

In other words, the verses cited above all work together perfectly. You are thoroughly refuted.

ARBITER01 · Sunday at 5:26 AM

keras said:
Yes; I got blasted with my thread - BUSTED -12 false theories Refuted.
And why do I not get any agreement? Because Church teachings and their vivid imaginings have confused and deceived them.
But abuse was all I got, no one properly refuted me.

It's the same with this issue of when Eternal Life is conferred.
Jesus said: Believe in Me and you shall have Eternal life. He made a Promise, He did not say you would get it as soon as you believed.
People die and funeral celebrants piously say: he/she as gone to heaven..... This is a little white lie to console the bereaved.

The dead know nothing, .....The dead 'sleep' in their graves,.... The dead await the Last Trumpet call.... THESE scriptures are the Truth!!!!!
Those whose names are found in the Book of Life at the final Judgment, are the ones that 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 applies to.
Note: That those faithful Christians who will be living [physically] at the end of the Millennium, will never die.

Seems like you are in the correct area for your personal beliefs. I guess you will remain unrefuted.

Jeffrey Bowden · Sunday at 9:52 AM

keras said:
Your policy is to ignore proofs that refute the rapture theory.

1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is a prophecy about what will happen after the GWT Judgment. Rev 20:11-15
ONLY THEN; is Death no more; Rev 21:4 People die now and they will in the Millennium; Isaiah 65:20

There HAS to be the Judgment before anyone is given Eternal life.

Keras, your greatest error is quoting verse after verse out of context. You curve-fit your assertions with pasted-together explanations, all out of context.

Your application of 1 Peter 4:12 is a prime example. Verses 13-14 prove the context is the uncomfortable feelings one may have when spreading the Gospel of Jesus in the public square. You insist on inserting a context wholly unrelated.

1 Cor 15:52 works in tandem only with 1 Th 4:16-17. Try reading every word of those verses and see that they exclusively work with each other only in the context of the rapture for the Church.

Also, try reading Rev 20:11-15 and see that "the dead" is referenced four times. The GWTJ is only for judging all who died in sin.

You say there's no rapture of the Church before the Trib. Jesus would disagree with you in Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

In that verse, "you" are believers and "those" are unbelievers. The "hour of trial" is the 7-year Trib.

Jesus said "I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, ...

We have nowhere to go on Earth, as the Trib will have come on the whole world.

Rev 4:1 is provably unfulfilled. There's the pre-Trib rapture for the Church, in Scripture.

Lost4words · Sunday at 10:08 AM

Luke 23:43

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

keras · Sunday at 2:39 PM

ARBITER01 said:
Seems like you are in the correct area for your personal beliefs. I guess you will remain unrefuted.

What I do is to promote the Words of the Prophets, THEY are irrefutable.

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Rev 4:1 is provably unfulfilled. There's the pre-Trib rapture for the Church, in Scripture.

Your making of this verse into a 'rapture to heaven' proof, is sufficient reason for everyone to discount all of what you say.

Lost4words said:
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Luke 23:43 Truly I tell you today, you will be with Me in paradise.
Any other placement of the comma is error, as Jesus descended into hell for the next 3 days after His death. 1 Peter 3:19

Jeffrey Bowden · Sunday at 3:41 PM

keras said:
What I do is to promote the Words of the Prophets, THEY are irrefutable.

Your making of this verse into a 'rapture to heaven' proof, is sufficient reason for everyone to discount all of what you say.

Luke 23:43 Truly I tell you today, you will be with Me in paradise.
Any other placement of the comma is error, as Jesus descended into hell for the next 3 days after His death. 1 Peter 3:19

From Rev 1:1 (ESV): ... He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

How did God's angel show Rev to John?

Rev 1:10 (ESV): I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet

Rev 1:12-15 (ESV): 12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, ...

Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me.

As the above truth attests, John was shown all of Rev by a supernatural vision which included audio.

Rev 4:1 is unfulfilled and it will therefore be the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

Lost4words · Sunday at 9:13 PM

keras said:
What I do is to promote the Words of the Prophets, THEY are irrefutable.

Your making of this verse into a 'rapture to heaven' proof, is sufficient reason for everyone to discount all of what you say.

Luke 23:43 Truly I tell you today, you will be with Me in paradise.
Any other placement of the comma is error, as Jesus descended into hell for the next 3 days after His death. 1 Peter 3:19

You place the comma to suit your beliefs. I got it straight from the Bible!

keras · 2026-02-16T02:01:49-0600

Lost4words said:
You place the comma to suit your beliefs. I got it straight from the Bible!

That makes 1 Peter 3:19 wrong.
It was not until 40 days after Jesus resurrected, that He went to heaven. Acts 1:1-3

Please explain how the repentant thief and Jesus got to heaven on the day of their deaths.

If a Bible translation causes an anomaly, a contradiction of scripture, then it is wrong and must not be believed.
Why don't you call out the blatant misinterpretations of others here?

Lost4words · 2026-02-16T03:00:10-0600

keras said:
That makes 1 Peter 3:19 wrong.
It was not until 40 days after Jesus resurrected, that He went to heaven. Acts 1:1-3

Please explain how the repentant thief and Jesus got to heaven on the day of their deaths.

If a Bible translation causes an anomaly, a contradiction of scripture, then it is wrong and must not be believed.
Why don't you call out the blatant misinterpretations of others here?

You have blatantly changed the comma. Remember, Jesus is Divine. He can move in and out of time as we know it.

You can't change a comma in scripture to suit your own belief system!!!

Jeffrey Bowden · 2026-02-16T08:07:30-0600

keras said:
That makes 1 Peter 3:19 wrong.
It was not until 40 days after Jesus resurrected, that He went to heaven. Acts 1:1-3

Please explain how the repentant thief and Jesus got to heaven on the day of their deaths.

If a Bible translation causes an anomaly, a contradiction of scripture, then it is wrong and must not be believed.
Why don't you call out the blatant misinterpretations of others here?

John 20:17 (ESV): Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Jesus ascended to Heaven on the third day. He was back on Earth that evening for His first post-resurrection appearance to His disciples. John 20:19 (ESV): On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

keras · 2026-02-16T13:19:40-0600

Lost4words said:
You have blatantly changed the comma. Remember, Jesus is Divine. He can move in and out of time as we know it.

You can't change a comma in scripture to suit your own belief system!!!

Does Koine Greek even have commas?
I repeat: If a Bible translation causes an anomaly between verses, then the translation is wrong.

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Jesus ascended to Heaven on the third day.

This is wrong too, but now you have admitted that Jesus and the repentant thief did not go to heaven on the day they died.

I put it to you and others here, your fixed beliefs lead you astray.
People are deceived and confused about what God has planned for the future of His peoples.
The blatant way scriptures are twisted and misapplied to suit false beliefs, is horrible and we can be sure God will take those who do it to account.

Jeffrey Bowden · 2026-02-16T16:28:55-0600

The Bible says in Luke 23:43 (ESV): And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

On the Friday of Jesus' death on the cross, Jesus was in paradise along with the repentant thief. That doesn't mean they arrived in paradise at the same time. I'm sure Jesus completed His other obligations before arriving in paradise. Is that realistic, Keras?

Jeffrey Bowden · 2026-02-16T17:12:43-0600

keras said:
Does Koine Greek even have commas?
I repeat: If a Bible translation causes an anomaly between verses, then the translation is wrong. Both deaths occurred on Friday, the first day of the three days.

This is wrong too, but now you have admitted that Jesus and the repentant thief did not go to heaven on the day they died.

I put it to you and others here, your fixed beliefs lead you astray.
People are deceived and confused about what God has planned for the future of His peoples.
The blatant way scriptures are twisted and misapplied to suit false beliefs, is horrible and we can be sure God will take those who do it to account.

The repentant thief died on his cross, then he went to paradise. My guess is Jesus died well before the repentant thief.

This also serves to prove that no one hangs around at their grave. If they are saved, they go to paradise. If they are an unbeliever, they go to Hades, just as stated in Luke 16:22-23 (ESV): The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

"Abraham's side" is obviously another name for paradise.

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Luke 23:43​

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