We must do the commandments in 1John 3:20-24 to bear fruit

There is only one way a person can bear fruit, that is to keep Jesus' commandments given in 1John 3:20-24.

The list of fruits of the Spirit is listed in Galatians. All the fruits listed are given to us by Jesus.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. NKJV

The first fruit of the Spirit is love. By 1Corinthians 13:1-13 the three greatest gifts are faith, love and hope. By Colossians 1: 4-5 we get the 3 greatest gifts from Jesus by the hope we get when we hear the gospel and believe in Jesus. The fruits and the mind of Jesus is what enable us to walk in the Spirit. They are in our new man. Colossians 3:14 we are told to put on love. That love is in the new man which is the gift Jesus gave us. That gift is in Jesus' mind and is the same love that Jesus possessed. Without putting on the new man we cannot obey the commandments that Jesus gives us. We also cannot walk in the Spirit.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." NKJV

Above is the second of the 2 commandments given in 1John 3: 20-24.

1 John 3:20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight (following His voice to stay in the Spirit). 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NKJV

There is a very good reason that Jesus gave us the new commandment. The first and greatest commandment in the old testament was to love God with all our heart, soul, strength and mind. All the gifts of the Spirit are in the new man which has the mind of Jesus. From that we can love other disciples as Jesus loved the us. Anything that is done to a Christian is done to Christ. If we love the brethren as Jesus loved us, we love God with the love that Jesus loved us with. Thereby, fulfilling the first and greatest commandment. If we are using Jesus' love, then we will also fulfill the second greatest commandment of the OT.

The first thing that Jesus convicts us to do must be is to stay in the Spirit and to keep the 2 commandments. 1John 2:5-6 if anyone does not heed Jesus' word, of conviction, he is not using the new man, to make his decisions. The more we put on the new man the more we are sanctified.

1 John 2:11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. NKJV

By refusing to love our brother, fellow believer, we are walking in darkness. We are not in the light that Jesus provides in the new man. Romans 8: 4-8 that means we are choosing to use our own carnal mind to make our decisions.

1 John 4:20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? NKJV

If a believer hates the brethren, they are hating Jesus and there is no hope that they will keep either of His 2 commandments or His word. He certainly will not follow the voice of someone that he hates.

1 John 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. NKJV

While we are in Him there is no sin. If anyone sins, a sin that God imputes to them, they have not seen Him nor known Him. By John 17: 24 the ones the Father has given to Jesus have beheld, seen, Him. By John 10: 14 Jesus is known by His sheep. Therefore, John is saying if anyone sins while in Him, they are not of the elect. 1John 1:8-9 if we confess our sins He is faithful and cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

If no one but the elect could ever be in Jesus, John would not have written this scripture. There are some non-elects who believe for a while but do not endure.

fli said:

There is only one way a person can bear fruit, that is to keep Jesus' commandments given in 1John 3:20-24.

The list of fruits of the Spirit is listed in Galatians. All the fruits listed are given to us by Jesus.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. NKJV

The first fruit of the Spirit is love. By 1Corinthians 13:1-13 the three greatest gifts are faith, love and hope. By Colossians 1: 4-5 we get the 3 greatest gifts from Jesus by the hope we get when we hear the gospel and believe in Jesus. The fruits and the mind of Jesus is what enable us to walk in the Spirit. They are in our new man. Colossians 3:14 we are told to put on love. That love is in the new man which is the gift Jesus gave us. That gift is in Jesus' mind and is the same love that Jesus possessed. Without putting on the new man we cannot obey the commandments that Jesus gives us. We also cannot walk in the Spirit.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." NKJV

Above is the second of the 2 commandments given in 1John 3: 20-24.

1 John 3:20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight (following His voice to stay in the Spirit). 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NKJV

There is a very good reason that Jesus gave us the new commandment. The first and greatest commandment in the old testament was to love God with all our heart, soul, strength and mind. All the gifts of the Spirit are in the new man which has the mind of Jesus. From that we can love other disciples as Jesus loved the us. Anything that is done to a Christian is done to Christ. If we love the brethren as Jesus loved us, we love God with the love that Jesus loved us with. Thereby, fulfilling the first and greatest commandment. If we are using Jesus' love, then we will also fulfill the second greatest commandment of the OT.

The first thing that Jesus convicts us to do must be is to stay in the Spirit and to keep the 2 commandments. 1John 2:5-6 if anyone does not heed Jesus' word, of conviction, he is not using the new man, to make his decisions. The more we put on the new man the more we are sanctified.

1 John 2:11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. NKJV

By refusing to love our brother, fellow believer, we are walking in darkness. We are not in the light that Jesus provides in the new man. Romans 8: 4-8 that means we are choosing to use our own carnal mind to make our decisions.

1 John 4:20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? NKJV

If a believer hates the brethren, they are hating Jesus and there is no hope that they will keep either of His 2 commandments or His word. He certainly will not follow the voice of someone that he hates.

1 John 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. NKJV

While we are in Him there is no sin. If anyone sins, a sin that God imputes to them, they have not seen Him nor known Him. By John 17: 24 the ones the Father has given to Jesus have beheld, seen, Him. By John 10: 14 Jesus is known by His sheep. Therefore, John is saying if anyone sins while in Him, they are not of the elect. 1John 1:8-9 if we confess our sins He is faithful and cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

If no one but the elect could ever be in Jesus, John would not have written this scripture. There are some non-elects who believe for a while but do not endure.

Click to expand...

In my first post I did not say much about the first commandment: we must keep believing in Jesus. Jesus has given us all the gifts we need to enter heaven. God could have taken us to heaven when we first believed. If someone gives us a gift, all we need do is accept it. If something is free we do not have to do anything but accept it. In both cases we need to do nothing but accept the item offered. If the item is something we desire, we will accept the gift or free product.

That is why God has said that salvation is a free gift. We did nothing except to believe in Jesus to get all the gifts necessary to enter heaven, all we need do is to use the gifts given us to get into heaven.

In salvation when we believe the gospel message and it gives us hope, we have accepted the gift. At that time God gives us the other 3 gifts needed to enter heaven. Colossians 1: 3-5 because of the hope Jesus gives us, He then gives us saving faith and love for the saints. He has given us hope, faith and love the 3 greatest gifts. John 1:12 Jesus also gave is the right to become a Child of God by giving us the birth of a new spiritual man to house His Spirit.

Jesus cannot be “in sin” therefore, His Spirit cannot be kept in our flesh. Romans 8:9-11 to keep the New spiritual man from being “in sin”, the Father kills our flesh. As long as we stay in the Spirit of Jesus, the new spiritual man we have , will not be “in sin” because the Father fulfills the law of sin and death, keeping us alive physically by not imputing our sins to us. As long as we stay in the Spirit the Father is pleased with us and keeps fulfilling the law of sin and death to keep us alive physically, not to keep us saved.

Sanctification is a completed process as long as we remain in the Spirit. This means that Jesus' love and mind is perfected in us. At the same time sanctification is an on going process in order to enable us do the works God has prepared for us to do. Since the works God prepared for us are done after we have reached eternal life, salvation is not of our works. The prepared work God has given all of us to do is to die in Jesus. If we stay in the Spirit till we die physically, we have all died for Jesus. Some of us die slowly by sanctification and some die fast, either under discipline or by persecution. To do this, all we need to do is to follow the voice of Jesus. Jesus enables us to do this if we follow His voice. We must be willing to die to the world in order to put to death the sins of the flesh. It is only by using the love Jesus gave us, will we be able keep our sanctification. Remember, our sanctification is only completed as long as we remain in Jesus.

John 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. NKJV

Verse 6 if we do not abide in Jesus, we are cast out of being in Jesus. To abide in Jesus, we need to keep the commandments given in 1John3:20-24. To do the second commandment we must remain in Jesus by continuing to believe in Him.

John 15:11 "These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends. NKJV

After Jesus told His disciples that they must abide in Him, He told them that no greater love could be shown other than to die for their friends. If a Christian remains in the Spirit of Jesus as He disciplines them to their physical death, they have died rather than continuing to sin and hurt the church and Jesus. 1Corinthians 11:30-32 those who went to sleep under discipline loved Jesus enough to die physically and put the sins of the flesh to death. By John 15:13 they laid down their life to die for their friends.

fhansen said:

I'm not sure what this means, though. If we've been given faith, hope, and, especially, love, then we've been equipped to overcome sin, we've been justifed and will remain that way as long as we remain in Him. Being in sin is to sin. If we sin, persistently, gravely, we're not in Him.

Click to expand...

We have to use what Jesus equipped us with to overcome. We are still tempted as we are in the flesh. Romans 7: 14 As Paul said we are sold under sin. Even though we are not under the law and God does not impute sin to us. We have to use the love of Jesus, that He gave to us, to overcome. If we do not use His love, we will not overcome. By putting on Jesus, symbolically, we will Love the Father and want to be obedient to Him. We do not sin our way out of Jesus. We simply do not want what Jesus offers more than what the world offers.

Matthew 7:26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall." NKJV

Jesus does not give idle warnings. If we are not willing to try to build our faith by doing what He taught (in Matthew 5:1- 7:25) our fall will be great. Note that I said willing to try what He taught.

Matthew 11:29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." NKJV

If we do not take the yoke, symbolically, of His discipline, we will not allow ourselves to be sanctified by dying in Him.

Luke 9:23 Then He said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. NKJV

We must daily put to death the sins of the flesh, through discipline, we will find that we love our life on earth is what we desire. If we find that we want to lose our life on earth, we will save eternal life in heaven.

fhansen said:

Alright, it sounds like were pretty close on this. Either way sanctification=eternal life (Rom 6:22, 8:12-13). So it's not just about what we want to do, but what we do, now bonded to Christ. Otherwise no amount or gravity of sin could ever mean eternal separation from Him, but Scripture says sin can cause that very thing. Sin won't be perfectly overcome in this life and yet it must be overcome...sufficiently to please God who knows and judges by the heart. We must be on that road, the path to perfection as it's been called, and not taking foregiveness for granted regardless of how we live. We know He's always there for us and that if we pick up our cross, cooperating with His grace, with Him, we'll get where He wants us to be.

Click to expand...

It is about what we want. While we are in Jesus no amount of childish disobedience gets us out of Jesus. We are saved through our faith. If we lose hope in Jesus, we lose the vehicle we are saved through. If we keep wanting what Jesus gives us, by using His love, which does not love the pleasures of the world more than loving Father.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. NKJV

When Jesus convicts us of what He want us to quit, He will tell us what will happen if we do not repent of the sin(s). If we want what Jesus loves, Jesus wants His body to be in the Spirit, then we want to be in the Spirit. As I said, If the person is using Jesus' love that is what they want. Some believers just do not have enough faith to face withdrawal. If they know that they will die by not giving up the sin, yet they still put their hope in Jesus, they are willing to put their sins to death by dying. If a person dies under discipline, they go to heaven. As long as a person is in Jesus when they die, they are not in sin and will go to heaven. God only disciplines those who are in Jesus.

2 Timothy 2:11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. 12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him, He also will deny us. 13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself (His body). NKJV

Notice Paul said, "If we died with Him". Paul had not died yet; he was speaking to the church. If the believer is willing to die to the world, they are willing to give up worldly pleasure and will die daily. Verse 12 if they are willing to endure discipline, they will reign with Him. Verse 12 if "we", Paul had not denied Him, but he included Himself in the group even though he knew that he was of the Jesus' sheep. John10:3 Jesus had called him by name. Verse 13 again Paul included himself in those who could deny Jesus. The entire scripture is to true believers, His church. It is not to a group that meet together and believe they are Christians. If you are not a true believer, He does not speak to you in the epistles. The bible is a guide to those who are His. If a believer does not have enough faith in Jesus to face withdrawal, but wants what Jesus wants for him, Jesus cannot deny His body.

fhansen said:

Alright, thank you. I was thinking you were separating what we want from what we do-but, yes, if we truly want what Jesus wants for us, we will do as He wants, by His power. and we will live. To put it another way, if we truly value the love that He has for us, and that only He can give to us, we will embrace it and produce good fruit including overcoming the sin that otherwise condemns us to death.

Click to expand...

The first time being convicted in discipline I am separating what we do with what we want.

1 Corinthians 11:27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. NKJV

The drunks that went to sleep wanted to obey but didn't have the faith to withdraw. They let Jesus kill their body to put their sins to death. After the first time God expects us to repent of our sins as He convicts us. Unless something drastic has changed our wants from the first time there should be no trouble.

Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, "Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. NKJV

God does not make anyone a steward unless they have proved themselves. The 12 and all those Jesus made apostles had a proven track record. Since Jesus was speaking to those who believed in Him, those the Father had given Him, I do not think those stewards could be guilty of the above. That only leaves those that He made stewards after He was crucified. That and the fact that God orders us to continue to believe in Him leads me to believe that even those who do submit to discipline can, if they let themselves be tempted, can, as David almost did, to lose salvation.

Deuteronomy 21:18 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear. NKJV

God does not ask man to do something that He cannot do. If God tells man to kill a disobedient son, then God will do it Himself.

fhansen said:

Well, our wants have to remain our wants, or be restored to that status by a change of heart-metanoia-with repentance or else there's no truth or worth in our relationship with God, in our faith. It would be a fallacy. Either way repentance is always possible. After denying Christ Peter must've had that change of heart. From our perspective we cannot put the cart ahead of the horse and assume that we'd repent after failing, after falling away; we don't know; we cannot predict our own perseverance. We know that we must turn back, if we're willing. And He's always there waiting with open arms, like a good Father.

Click to expand...

Romans 4:6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not
impute sin." NKJV

I'm not sure that you understand, as long as we are in Jesus, God does not impute sin to our account. He treats us as disobedine3t children. If God ever imputes a sin to us it is because we quit believing in Jesus. Yes, we sin while in Jesus but as verse 6 states our righteousness is apart from our works. That means our works have nothing to do with our righteousness.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; NKJV

As long as we are in Jesus, we have the righteousness of Jesus.


I don't know why I lost the fact that you said the below


"I believe stoning in such cases was fairly common back in the day. God was quite serious about the need for discipline in His people. Either way, yes, God does not command anything that cannot be obeyed, including His command to Adam or the commandments later given to Moses on Mt Sinai. We just need Him and the love that's intrinsic to fellowship with Him in order for obedience to flow and that means He must first bring about reconciliation between us and Himself to restore that vital fellowship which Adam broke-and God diid that through the sacrifice of His own Son."

What I meant that God does not do anything that He cannot do is, God ordered the Israelis to stone a son who was in rebellion and would not obey them. As far as they knew that son would go to hell as he was in sin. God did not kill Jesus because He was in sin. He killed Jesus in order to glorify Him. If they quit believing in Jesus, they are sinning continuously and God imputes their sin to them. God had given them everything to get to heaven and they chose not to use it. He granted them forgiveness of sin and repentance as well as the gifts to get them to heaven, He does not do it again. They cannot be restored to repentance.

fhansen said:

This is a common enough misunderstanding nowadays. Being in Jesus means that we’re also empowered to act like Him, by being connected to Him as the branch is connected to the vine- disobedience being the problem that separated us from Him to begin with. In an case, sin was a problem that He came to overcome, to forgive and take away, and this is what Paul is excited about in Rom 7:25. It’s not because God now ignores our unrighteousness but it’s about God forgiving our unrighteousness and giving us the righteousness, the love to put it best, that allows us to move on-to finally be who we were actually created to be when we now turn back to Him in faith. “Your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more” (John 8:11). Christianity is all about communion with the living God first of all-then we have the grace to do His will. Only He can justify the ungodly.

Rom 3:21-22 is speaking about a new righteousness, a real righteousness given, which the law and the prophets could testify to because they truly mirror or reflect it even though they cannot produce it; it’s not a merely declared or imputed righteousness.

“For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!” Rom 5:5

Sin kills

“When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.” Rom 6:20-22

And this is why Rom 8 tells us there’s no condemnation in Christ Jesus, because through Him sin is condemned so that we might now meet the righteous requirements of the law by the Spirit, the life of God given us. That’s the connection to the Vine again. Rom 8:12-14 explains how this plays out.

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” Rom 8:12-14

And this was prophesied by Jeremiah:

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.” Jer 31:33

Click to expand...

Here are a few scriptures that you seem not to be aware of.

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: NKJV

Four phrases in the above scripture proves that we do not work for our own salvation.

First: “But to him who does not work.” those saved by Jesus do not work for their salvation. Hebrews 4:10 confirms this as those who have entered His, Jesus', rest have ceased from their work to obtain salvation. God created us to do good works. But those works are not required until after we reach eternal life and then they are required to keep living physically for sanctification. The further we go in our own sanctification the more God can trust us for important work in heaven

Second: “but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly.” If we know that God justifies the ungodly, we know that works do not mean we are saved/unsaved. If we do not believe that God justifies the ungodly if means the ungodly are not justified because of their works. Matthew 7:1-5 the measure that we use will be used by God to determine if you have saving faith in Jesus.

Third: “his faith is accounted for righteousness.” If we believe that God justifies the ungodly then we know our works have nothing to do with our salvation. It's our faith that gives us righteousness.

Fourth: “the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.” Believers are the men that God imputes righteousness to no matter what their works are. Romans 3:21-22 when we enter into Jesus, we have Jesus' righteousness not earned through works of the law.

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. NKJV

Above is another scripture that applies to all true Israelis. It is a two-edged sword.

A true Israeli cannot earn any righteousness by doing works of the law. To a true believer doing works of the law will not give them any righteousness. They do the works out of love for Jesus, not for salvation.

The other edge of the scripture. If a person is doing works of the law expecting to earn righteousness, they are not a true believer.

A true believer does the second commandment to keep walking in the Spirit to continue living physically. If they do not do the second commandment God will discipline them to their death. Thereby, putting to death the sins of the flesh through the Spirit. If they submit to His discipline it proves they are hearing and obeying Jesus' voice as He convicts them.

fhansen said:

Well, we can trade verses all day long and I'll add a couple more here to those I mentioned above:
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

Click to expand...

If we persist, or endure, in believing in Jesus we will have gained eternal life with Jesus.

fhansen said:

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

Click to expand...

In the NT we are expected to act like sons of God. Therefore. The apostles said things like: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors not to live according to the flesh. Other times they might have said we ought to walk like Jesus walked. Or we should abstain from sexual immorality. I agree with all of those statements that we are debtors to act like Jesus acted. Do we have to act like Jesus did? No! SAs I said just now we are obligated to act as He did. We are obligated to do the law in the OT. Do we have to? No! We are obligated mto love our brothers as Jesus love them. Do we have to? No! Why not? Because salvation is not of works.

fhansen said:

but,
1) I already stated that it's God, alone, who justifies
and,
2) I never spoke about "works of the law", but about a new righteousness "apart from the law".

We both agree that God, alone, justifies, that nothing we can do can make us righteous. So this debate really revolves around two questions:
1) What does that righteousness consist of?

Click to expand...

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. NKJV

As Long as we have faith in Jesus, we have the righteousness of God. What do we need to do to keep saving faith?

Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; 5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, NKJV

When we had faith in Jesus from hearing the gospel God gave us saving faith as well as love for the saints and many other gifts.

Colossians 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. NKJV

Paul states if we maintain our hope we will be holy and blameless in His sight.

fhansen said:

2) Can that righteousness, that justified state, be compromised and forfeited? Can we lose our salvation, IOW? Must we make any effort to do His will even as the power to do it comes from Him, alone?

Click to expand...

As stated in Colossians 1:21-23 above we must maintain our hope in Jesus. Does this mean we will start doing good works?

John 3: 16 we have immortality if we believe in Jesus. What must we do to persist in doing good? You cited 1John 2: 3-6 near the end of your last post. What you do not seem to understand is His commandments and word we are to keep is not the commandments and law in the OT. The father has pronounced that everyone in Jesus is dead. We have died to the law and are no longer held by it. If we died with Jesus, we will live with Him Romans 6:8, 2Timothy 2: 11. To ensure that those in Christ knew that they had to persist and physically die in Christ, God gave us the 2 new commandments we are to obey the NT in 1John 3: 20-24.

1 John 3:20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NKJV

The above are the laws in the new covenant that we are to keep. We must keep believing in Jesus as per God's commandment. Verse 22to do the things pleasing in His sight we obey the word that He convicts us of. When He convicts us (if you will read Revelation 2: 21-23) Jesus will usually put us on a sickbed and put us through great tribulation unless we repent. If we do not He said that He would kill her children with death if they did not repent. In Ezekiel 18: 1-4 God quit killing the children for the sins of their parents. Those of Jezebel's children are those who followed her teachings. Their death would be a physical death. Not eternal death. If we keep our hope in Jesus and let the Father kill us we have put to death sins of the flesh.

If we do not keep believing in Jesus we, in effect, resurrect ourselves. Once resurrected we are still in our old bodies on the old world. We are now practicing sin. It is appointed for men to die once then be judged. We would have been judged with Jesus if we had not resurrected ourselves. Now there is no hope to have God give all the gifts again. In Jewish law we have violated to wedding vows.

fhansen said:

And once one understands the answer to those questions, then they’ll better understand the meaning of Rom 4:5, for example. All that the gospel is saying is that righteousness comes from God, alone, not from ourselves as if mere external obedience of the law could actually make us righteous or holy.

Click to expand...

Here is an example of God justifying the ungodly 1Corinthians 5:1-11. Verse 5 Paul recommended that they turn the man over to Satan, which can only be done if the man is in God's kingdom. If the man did not repent, he would die physically and his spirit would go live with Jesus. Verse 2 the church was proud of what the man was doing. Verse 9-11 in a previous letter Paul had told them not to keep company with immoral people. They understood that they were not to associate with immoral non- believers. Therefore, the church considered the man to be saved, the church had all the gifts of the Spirit 1Corinthians 1:4-7. One of the gifts is discerning spirits, therefore they would have known if the man did not have the Spirit of Jesus 1Corinthians 1:4-7. The ungodly man was justified by Jesus. If you say the man was not saved, I want you to cite scriptures that prove your point. Remember:

Romans 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), NKJV

Salvation is not of works. It is of election. If God calls you then you are elect.

1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: NKJV

Paul was writing to the Corinth church to those who were called. He recommended the man be turned over to Satan which can only be done if the man is in the kingdom of God. Paul was writing to the man as He was part of the church that he was writing to. The man did not have to repent to die in Jesus

fhansen said:

, ”Apart from me you can do nothing." John 15:5, and that "with God all things are possible” Matt 19:26

Click to expand...

If we keep believing in Jesus we are not apart from Jesus. If we keep the 2 commandments in1John 3:20-24 and do things pleasing in His sight, heed His voice as He convicts us, we will abide, remain, in Jesus

fhansen said:

The new covenant is about change, in us, not only about the forgiveness that precedes and prompts that change. We’re given new hearts and spirits, were given the love, the justice/righteousness, that causes us to obey the law without even hearing it-so that we might overcome the sin that leads to death. That’s why our sins must not be counted against us, so that we can start anew, just as forgiveness "resets" relationship between people in our world. The gospel is about change, about being enabled to reciprocate with the love that’s been shown to us. Heck, unless we do so our sins will not be forgiven:

Click to expand...

We are changed the minute we believe as we are born again. We have the mind of Jesus. If we follow His voice as He convicts us it proves we follow the mind of Jesus and have a spiritual mind.

fhansen said:

“For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” Matt 6:14-15

“Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.” 1 John 2:3-6

Justification and being just cannot be separated; they’re intrinsically related. It's not about faith alone, but about the fruit of that faith, with faith as the foundation, then the fruit of of faith, hope, and love together which truly makes us children of God. Those virtues are gifts, free gifts, but gifts that must be accepted, embraced, and acted upon: divine gifts..and daily human choices.

Click to expand...

First reply is to we ought to walk as He walked. It is worth repeating,

In the NT we are expected to act like sons of God. Therefore. The apostles said things like: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors not to live according to the flesh. Other times they might have said we ought to walk like Jesus walked. Or we should abstain from sexual immorality. I agree with all of those statements that we are debtors to act like Jesus acted. We ought to do them but are not required to do them.

Justification and being are separated by God's decree.

Romans 4:6 David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin." NKJV

God imputes righteousness to apart from our works. Our good works cannot improve our righteousness. Our bad works cannot take away from our righteousness. Our lawless deeds are forgiven by the Father to fulfill the law of sin and death. Our sins are covered by the blood of Jesus as long as we continue to believe in Him. God does not impute sin to us. Our righteousness and being, what we are doing, are separated. God condemned sin in the flesh, not in our spiritual man. Our spiritual man has no sin as long as we remain in Jesus.

fhansen said:

No, this is sometimes referred to as "fiduciary faith", faith in one's faith which opposes or misunderstands the correct role of faith which is to establish the right, just, and vital relationship with God that man was created for.

Well, you're obviously misunderstanding the role of our actions after justification then (such as doing "for the least of these", Matt 25, or performing those works perpared for us in advance, Eph 2), since the one "debtor" verse that comes to mind is Rom 8:12-14, where Pauls specifically tells us that unless we act like Jesus did, unless we overcome sin/deeds of the flesh, we will not live.

Anyone can profess faith, but it's only talk unless the fruit is evident. That's what James was getting at in his 2nd chapter. If that good fruit is present then, yes, we have all the more reason to see ourselves as children of God. Either way, faith does not turn anyone into an automaton who could not walk away, who could not fail to respond to His chastisements, who can't fail to remain in Him in truth- regardless of any words to the contrary. We'll know them by their fruit, by their love; we'll know them by their overcoming of sin, John tells us in his letters.

Love is really the most important of the virtues God gives us, as Paul tells us in 1 Cor 13:
"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."
and earlier in the same chapter:
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing."

Augustine could phrase it this way:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

Ok...either way, our fruit, our deeds, reveal whether or not we've remained in Him.

And yet we continue to sin, which means we aren't yet so completely changed, so willing to become a slave to righteousness that leads to eternal life (Rom 6), as we might like to believe. We aren't yet perfected in love to put it another way. Once we are, presumably not fully until the next life, then our wills, and therefore our obedience, are no longer questionable, subject to possible failure. God refuses to take "you" out of the equation because He gave us freedom for a reason: to come to use it rightly even as grace is also a necessary and essential part of achieving that goal.
o
God gives righteousness, infuses rightouness into us, pours love into us by the Holy Spirit who now indwells us (Rom 5:5). And as we embrace and express that love it most certainly does grow, to "improve our righteousness" as we're thus transformed increasingly into His own image. That's how salvation is worked out, by taking the gifts we've been given and "investing" them to the best we can. The Parable of the Talents/Bags of Gold in Matt 25 sheds light on this truth-and on what happens if we "bury our talents" instead. We are debtors; God expects a return on the work He's done, a crop from the seed He's planted, fruit from the gifts He's given, with more expected from those given more (Luke 12:48).

Click to expand...

You did not say why you do not believe the young man in 1Corinthians5:1-11 was not justified by Jesus. Paul recommended that he be turned over to Satan for destruction of the flesh so that his spirit would be saved on the day lf the Lord. Paul thought he was saved. The church thought that he was saved and they had a t least one person that would have known if he had the Spirit of Jesus. You xid not comment on that. Please do comment on that.