• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Adventists at the Crossroads of Legalism and Righteousness by Faith

Mercy Shown

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 2019
1,167
332
65
Boonsboro
✟108,751.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Is this true? Is this what some of them believe?
Some do, but some do not. I have met Christians who believe that if you haven’t been baptized yet, you are lost. There are all sorts of different works that people from different denominations believe are required for salvation. Yet beyond all of that, there is the body of Christ, where you find rest—not striving, not fear, not performance, but trust.

God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. Salvation has always been about humility and dependence, not about checking boxes. Even among Seventh-day Adventists, there is diversity of belief. Many SDAs do not believe Sabbath keeping is what saves them; rather, it is something they celebrate because they are saved. In that sense, the Sabbath is not a means of earning favor, but a response of gratitude and faith.

I believe that is what all of our good works should be about. We do not come to God polished and prepared—we come to Him just as we are. Grace is not the reward for repentance; grace is what makes repentance possible.


Their prophet E. G. White wrote this:

"Just here is a point on which many may err, and hence they fail of receiving the help that Christ desires to give them. They think that they cannot come to Christ unless they first repent, and that repentance prepares for the forgiveness of their sins. It is true that repentance does precede the forgiveness of sins; for it is only the broken and contrite heart that will feel the need of a Saviour. But must the sinner wait till he has repented before he can come to Jesus? Is repentance to be made an obstacle between the sinner and the Saviour?
The Bible does not teach that the sinner must repent before he can heed the invitation of Christ, "Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28. It is the virtue that goes forth from Christ, that leads to genuine repentance. Peter made the matter clear in his statement to the Israelites when he said, "Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." Acts 5:31. We can no more repent without the Spirit of Christ to awaken the conscience than we can be pardoned without Christ."
This captures the heart of the gospel: we come to Christ first, and from Him flows repentance, transformation, obedience, and rest. Anything that places repentance, works, or rituals ahead of Christ risks
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jerry N.
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
16,778
4,209
✟415,441.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
It’s probably more than a bit ironic that I often find myself agreeing with SDA’s, except over doctrines on the Sabbath, considering that the SDA Church has perhaps vented more hostility towards Catholicism than any other group since the early days of the Reformation. But the reason for agreement is obvious to me. From my limited knowledge Ellen White, going by her understanding of Scripture, stood on the necessity of obedience, of overcoming sin, of obeying the moral law, IOW. But she understood this to be possible only by the power of the Holy Spirit who now indwells the justified person. Everything begins and ends with grace: with grace all things are possible. And this is classic Catholicism- and is the basic position of the ancient eastern churches as well in my understanding. The law, for the justified person, is not an enemy, and it’s certainly not the means to righteousness, either, but it serves as a guide pointing to righteousness, to what must be done even if it lacks the power, the grace, to accomplish it in us.

Now, obedience can become mechanical, unspiritual, by the Letter, legalistic, merely external, etc, etc, and it can even be taught that way by misled or uninspired teachers, but the understanding is correct that says that we now can and must obey, but with a new righteousness apart from the law that the law and the prophets testify to (Rom 3:21), a righteousness that meets the righteous requirements of the law (Rom 8:1). If one’s understanding of Sola Fide disagrees with this then they’ve allowed that doctrine to be a source of confusion IMO.

So the crossroads spoken of in the OP is actually near the area where we really need to be after all. The new covenant/gospel was never intended to serve as a reprieve from man’s obligation to be righteous and then live accordingly, but rather as the means of achieving that very thing so that we might avoid the penalty of death that sin earns-so that we might live! This doesn’t deny the operation of grace but rather identifies its true role, as the gift of God’s life in us that we can nurture, express and grow in, or not. The gospel puts the law in its true place, as a tutor, as the convicter of sin, not as the conqueror of sin. Only God can justify the ungodly, only He can put His law in our minds and write it on our hearts, only He can cause us to love as He does. We need to be connected to the Vine-who-is-love. Then genuine obedience begins to come of its own accord.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

MarkRohfrietsch

Unapologetic Apologist
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2007
31,248
6,069
✟1,074,435.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
I’m started a thread with poll in the sabbath room asking the question if those that worshiped on Sunday were sinning. It amazed me that 14.3% responded with maybe or yes.

Interesting; we need to be mindful that this is only out of those who responded, and those were out of those who actually frequent CF. Compared to the numbers cited by Bob of 24,000,000 (a claim that I and most Christians are skeptical of) this is just a drop in the bucket.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,816
6,182
Visit site
✟1,124,510.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The SDA is monolithic in the believe that the 4th commandment is a moral commandment and to not keep it amounts to disobedience and sin which, without repentance, will not lead to salvation. In other words, keeping the sabbath is required for salvation. They are still legalistic.

They are not monolithic. Some liberal Adventists don't hold to that view.

Of course, for many, they would hold a view similar to Ellen White:

It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord. God says: "Them that honor Me I will honor." {6T 356.4}​


Satan is the sharpest critic that the world has ever known, and he works to hinder and pervert truth. He has induced men to strive to change the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. Under his dictation the first day of the week has been adopted by the Christian world as the Sabbath. He has used his masterly mind to influence other men to adopt the same views that he himself entertains. But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}​
 
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
39,045
6,654
On the bus to Heaven
✟235,695.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
They are not monolithic. Some liberal Adventists don't hold to that view.

Of course, for many, they would hold a view similar to Ellen White:

It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord. God says: "Them that honor Me I will honor." {6T 356.4}​


Satan is the sharpest critic that the world has ever known, and he works to hinder and pervert truth. He has induced men to strive to change the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. Under his dictation the first day of the week has been adopted by the Christian world as the Sabbath. He has used his masterly mind to influence other men to adopt the same views that he himself entertains. But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}​
Hi Tall nice to see you. It’s been a while. Thanks for the information. I did not realize that they had a liberal arm. Everyone of them that I’ve talked to seem to hold traditional SDA beliefs. Do you think that the publication that I quoted in the OP is from the liberal arm of the SDAs?
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,816
6,182
Visit site
✟1,124,510.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hi Tall nice to see you. It’s been a while. Thanks for the information. I did not realize that they had a liberal arm. Everyone of them that I’ve talked to seem to hold traditional SDA beliefs. Do you think that the publication that I quoted in the OP is from the liberal arm of the SDAs?
Yes, Spectrum and Adventist Today tend toward more liberal views.

They are independent, so you get more critical views than official publications. Also, you can get commentary from scholars within the denomination (often after retirement!) who challenge traditional Adventist beliefs.

On the conservative side you have independent sites such as Fulcrum7. Fulcrum7
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Hentenza
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,816
6,182
Visit site
✟1,124,510.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
On a practical level though, the vast majority of Adventists, even those who are more theologically liberal, will see the Sabbath as important.

You have more variety on such questions as the investigative judgment doctrine, etc. A number of clergy and scholars have questioned that doctrine over the years.

It is true that the early Advent movement was not in favor of creeds. And it took some time for the various doctrines to solidify. During the fallout from the disappointment in 1844 those who had participated in the Millerite movement continued to interact in periodicals and gatherings, forming into groups with similar views.

This eventually led to statements about agreed upon matters. They also began to take steps such as ordination of clergy, and property ownership, so that the movement could be more effective in outreach.

Since the dialogue between church officials and Walter Martin regarding whether Adventists were a cult, in the 1950's we see more interaction with Adventist and Evangelicals more broadly. This led to a new publication of doctrinal statements, addressing some critiques by evengelicals.

The introduction of the (at the time 27) fundamental beliefs in the 80s was a continuation of the trend of statements of agreed upon doctrines. But they do spell out quite a bit, so they were more expansive than some earlier statements.

They played an important role in the Desmond Ford discussions, where a prominent professor and teacher of pastors expressed a different view on the investigative judgment doctrine. He was given a hearing, but the documents coming out of the meetings state that they were judging his teaching based on the recently affirmed fundamental belief statements. This resulted in the loss of his ministerial credentials, though not his church membership (he renounced that many years later, as part of an effort to start his own ministry).

The fallout from that was considerable, especially in areas such as Australia and New Zealand, where a sizable group of clergy left, some over theological views, and some simply over the perception of the handling.

In more recent decades, in my opinion, there has also been more willingness on the part of leadership to have a big tent view, not immediately disfellowshipping people if they hold some views not in line with the fundamental beliefs, unless they are particularly vocal about it. And some conferences are more liberal than others, ordaining women clergy locally, though the world church has not approved this, etc.

Even at Christian Forums we see this reflected in the Adventist section, which at one time was one forum. However, as tensions rose between those who held to the fundamental beliefs, and the more progressive members who questioned one or more teaching, the forum was divided into Traditional Adventists and Progressive/Evangelical Adventists. They had difficulty at times getting along, though they were largely still members in their local churches.

I was at that time questioning some Adventist beliefs before eventually leaving, but I was not in favor of the forum being split. The fundamental beliefs still define the official Adventist position. So I don't think it was good to divide the forum , and create a progressive one. The reality is they are all members of the same church, even if there is some variety of opinion. If the denomination won't draw a hard line regarding membership for those who reject particular doctrines, some conflict is inevitable on those lines.

And it was not something we saw much with other denominations, dividing them into traditional and liberal sections on the forum. It gives a negative first impression regarding Adventists overall to do so, in my view.

I think it was partly because the moderation was becoming very difficult, and some of the progressives were pushing for it as a means to say what they wanted.

The irony is that by the time they split some of the more vocal progressives had been banned for repeated violations. And when the two groups couldn't interact as much, the progressive forum was not that busy.

I would still be in favor of them simply rolling the progressive section back into the traditional and making it one Adventist section again.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,816
6,182
Visit site
✟1,124,510.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
On a related note, I wound up leaving the denomination after 10 years of pastoral ministry there. I know a number of clergy, even in the conservative area I was in, who disagreed with some Adventist doctrine, but didn't make a point of it publicly.

Some urged me to stay and just not speak about certain issues. And even one of the conference officials hinted that they could send me out to one of the more liberal conferences and I could still pastor there.

But while there are liberal movements, I didn't think it was right to continue in ministry, and receive denominational support, while disagreeing with denominational teaching. So I wound up leaving ministry and resigning my membership.

But others feel they should try to reform from within. To the degree that they misrepresent their views, however, I think that is not the correct course of action.

But I can understand the thinking. Many who disagree with one doctrine or another still see Adventist teaching as the closest to Scripture, so they don't want to leave. So they push for relaxing the official position a bit to leave room for themselves at the table.

Ellen White's writings make that more difficult than it would be in other denominations. They comment on a great many aspects of theology and life. And while the rate of members reading her writings is going down, the continued emphasis and influence of her writings make the doctrinal views of the church less subject to change.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,825
9,023
51
The Wild West
✟881,062.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
So I wound up leaving ministry and resigning my membership.

You know, you could return to ministry from another denomination. We Orthodox will ordain married men who have not remarried or killed anyone, not limiting ordination to celibates, and others like Anglicans are even less strict.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,816
6,182
Visit site
✟1,124,510.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You know, you could return to ministry from another denomination. We Orthodox will ordain married men who have not remarried or killed anyone, not limiting ordination to celibates, and others like Anglicans are even less strict.

I was reluctant to go back into ministry without a definite indication from the Lord. I was either wrong before, or wrong now, and that is not a small thing if you may have been communicating incorrect doctrine. I wanted to work all these issues through for some time. I wound up in a fairly conservative American Baptist congregation, which was good for that. American Baptists have a wide spectrum of views, with the individual congregation playing a large role.

The convention as a whole holds to the Trinity, importance of Scripture, etc. but they do not define many aspects of beliefs. So you can study with people with a range of views and come to your own convictions.

In that regards the church I attended had more in common with pre-creedal Adventism. We had people with all kinds of views.

I remember a year and a half study through the book of Revelation where people who held to the historicist view, futurist view, partial preterist view, etc. all compared notes, without getting upset, and yet pressing each other on the different nuances in the text. We similarly studied other books.

Meanwhile I discussed with the pastor various points of theology to get his take on things.

I was able to serve as a deacon, preach still at times in the congregation, and frequently at local care centers, lead Bible studies, help start a visitation program, assist with outreach efforts, etc.

I did eventually wind up pastoring a Baptist congregation for 4 years when through various means I was convinced the Lord wanted me to. And I would be willing to again if I felt similar leading. But right now I am preaching each week at a care center in town. That is fine with me. None of the church politics, and all of the upside of working with residents, family, staff, etc. We even had some baptisms recently.
 
Upvote 0

9Rock9

Sinner in need of grace.
Nov 28, 2018
354
242
South Carolina
✟118,516.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
I used to associate with the SDA, but never officially converted. They were influential on my religious background even if I don't necessarily agree with them on many points. I did consider converting at one point, but I think I just wanted to be a part of a community more than actually agreeing with the church's teachings.

I kinda see their argument for Saturday observance even if I think they go a bit far by saying Sunday worship is the mark of the beast. I'm also no longer a young earth creationists, which, iirc, is official church doctrine.

I did learn a lot about the Old Testament from them, though, which I'm thankful for. Yeah, I knew the basic Bible stories like David and Goliath, Jericho and Noah's Flood, but I knew almost nothing about the actual Israelite culture and religion.
 
Last edited:

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
16,825
9,023
51
The Wild West
✟881,062.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I think they go a bit far by saying Sunday worship is the mark of the beast.

That would be an understatement; calling Sunday worship “the mark of the beast” contradicts these verses: Luke 6:1-11; 6:37, Matthew 12:1-14, Mark 23:2-8, Matthew 7:1-5, Mark 7:1-13,, Matthew 15:1-9, Colossians 2:16, Romans 14:5-12, Galatians 4:9-10, Hebrews 10:1, Galatians 5:1, Ephesians 2:15, Acts 2:1-15, Acts 15:10-11, Acts 20:7-12, Isaiah 1:13-14, Hosea 2:11, Amos 5:21-22

It also implies the martyrs and confessors of the early church such as St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Justin Martyr, St. Polycarp of Smyrna, Saints Galacteon and Epistima, St. Mina, St. Abanoub, St. Lucia, St. George, St. Cosimas and Damian, St. Nicholas of Myra and many others died for nothing. But rest assured, according to The Great Controversy and the relater Landmark Baptist narrative, they weren’t really Christians, the real church consisting of mostly of sects such as Montanists, Donatists, Paulicans, Albigenses and others, along with the crypto-Donatist proto-Protestant Waldensians (none of these were in reality Sabbatarian, and aside from the Donatists and Waldensians, none had normative Christian beliefs).
 
Last edited:

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
2,991
465
Midwest
✟228,788.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Yes, or internal division like Catholicism SSPX vs. Vatican Catholics. Same Church, same faith, different interpretation of what it means to be SDA?
Did you mean "Vatican II" Catholics?

I think it is more than just a different interpretation of what it means to be Catholic: it is historical Catholicism vs. a descent into modernism.
Historical Catholics treated their churches as sanctuaries, not town halls. There wasn't any talking in church. People knelt to reverently receive Holy Communion/Holy Eucharist.

I attend a Novus Ordo church; I do not have any other option here to partake of the Holy Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. John 6:53

I do not agree with our archbishop's teaching about illegal immigration. His teaching cannot be reconciled with historical Magisterial teaching. Vatican II teaches against capital punishment, which is also not the historical teaching of the church. Also, I cannot imagine Peter or Paul closing down all the churches in the first century because the Romans told them to. Our archbishop complied with the government's Covid rules.

SSPX bishops do not teach heresy, whereas some, but not all, Vatican II bishops do.

Did Vatican II produce the good fruits of repentance and conversion of its members? Absolutely not! Matthew 7:19-20
Since Vatican II forced its teachings upon its people, millions of Catholics have left the faith. Their children and grandchildren have never learned the faith.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
16,778
4,209
✟415,441.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Did you mean "Vatican II" Catholics?

I think it is more than just a different interpretation of what it means to be Catholic: it is historical Catholicism vs. a descent into modernism.
Historical Catholics treated their churches as sanctuaries, not town halls. There wasn't any talking in church. People knelt to reverently receive Holy Communion/Holy Eucharist.

I attend a Novus Ordo church; I do not have any other option here to partake of the Holy Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. John 6:53

I do not agree with our archbishop's teaching about illegal immigration. His teaching cannot be reconciled with historical Magisterial teaching. Vatican II teaches against capital punishment, which is also not the historical teaching of the church. Also, I cannot imagine Peter or Paul closing down all the churches in the first century because the Romans told them to. Our archbishop complied with the government's Covid rules.

SSPX bishops do not teach heresy, whereas some, but not all, Vatican II bishops do.

Did Vatican II produce the good fruits of repentance and conversion of its members? Absolutely not! Matthew 7:19-20
Since Vatican II forced its teachings upon its people, millions of Catholics have left the faith. Their children and grandchildren have never learned the faith.
Millions of people have left Christianity-without regard to Vat II. That leaving, like the abuses that took place in the Catholic Church since the 60s, were a sign of the times, not the council. SSPX are an extremist group, operating on the outside fringes of Catholcism and do not consitute internal division or differing acceptable interpretations. They've been tolerated, in the name of unity and the hope of full unity ultimately, certainly not embraced.
 

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
2,991
465
Midwest
✟228,788.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Millions of people have left Christianity-without regard to Vat II. That leaving, like the abuses that took place in the Catholic Church since the 60s, were a sign of the times, not the council. SSPX are an extremist group, operating on the outside fringes of Catholcism and do not consitute internal division or differing acceptable interpretations. They've been tolerated, in the name of unity and the hope of full unity ultimately, certainly not embraced.
I think the 60s' debauchery was a result of the lack of spiritual leadership in our country. I don't remember any sermons that addressed this debauchery. Government leaders were also mostly Christians, and they also did nothing except to accommodate and promote this debauchery in the laws that they passed. This loss of faith should have been the main focus of the council. These council leaders should have, firstly, repented and reconverted themselves, and then they should have made a plan to help mankind come to repentance and conversion to God. Instead, they denied the kingship of Jesus Christ over all the earth through their own neglect.

Regarding the SSPX, I do not judge them.
I do remember that I did not think that their understanding of "No Salvation outside the Catholic Church" was entirely correct.

It is true that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

To me, this means that Jesus Christ alone will judge every person, with no exception, to be either worthy or unworthy to inherit eternal life.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For all of us must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each may receive due recompense for actions done in the body, whether good or evil.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
16,778
4,209
✟415,441.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I think the 60s' debauchery was a result of the lack of spiritual leadership in our country. I don't remember any sermons that addressed this debauchery. Government leaders were also mostly Christians, and they also did nothing except to accommodate and promote this debauchery in the laws that they passed. This loss of faith should have been the main focus of the council. These council leaders should have, firstly, repented and reconverted themselves, and then they should have made a plan to help mankind come to repentance and conversion to God. Instead, they denied the kingship of Jesus Christ over all the earth through their own neglect.

Regarding the SSPX, I do not judge them.
I do remember that I did not think that their understanding of "No Salvation outside the Catholic Church" was entirely correct.

It is true that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

To me, this means that Jesus Christ alone will judge every person, with no exception, to be either worthy or unworthy to inherit eternal life.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For all of us must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each may receive due recompense for actions done in the body, whether good or evil.
The council pretty much took place before the major observable shifts in society occurred, and that change was a runaway freight train that no one could’ve stopped. The reasons for those changes in values are manifold and involve a long history, and the church did, indeed, anticipate and address it from the highest levels back in earlier decades and then at the council itself with documents such as "The Light of the Nations" (Lumen Gentium) in 1964 and the “Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World” (Gaudium et spes) in 1965 and a little later with John Paull II’s “On Human Life” (Humanae Vitae), to name a few. And the church remained the loudest and most adamant prolife voice before and throughout the so-called “sexual revolution”

The media, alone, played a huge part in the societal changes and in any case simultaneous factors converged that made possible and prompted people on a large collective scale to experiment with what really only amounts to the age-old bid for freedom/autonomy from God, “freedom” being the operative word: the chief idol and temptation of fallen man. Freedom from God was Adam’s objective in his act of disobedience-and many people, inside and outside of the churches, have followed the same siren call in recent generations. People, as always, are an obstinate bunch.

And Vat II, itself, BTW, teaches that everyone, including all ministers of the church, must "follow constantly the path of penance and renewal."
 
Upvote 0

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
2,991
465
Midwest
✟228,788.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The council pretty much took place before the major observable shifts in society occurred, and that change was a runaway freight train that no one could’ve stopped. The reasons for those changes in values are manifold and involve a long history, and the church did, indeed, anticipate and address it from the highest levels back in earlier decades and then at the council itself with documents such as "The Light of the Nations" (Lumen Gentium) in 1964 and the “Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World” (Gaudium et spes) in 1965 and a little later with John Paull II’s “On Human Life” (Humanae Vitae), to name a few. And the church remained the loudest and most adamant prolife voice before and throughout the so-called “sexual revolution”

Unfortunately, men who were unacceptable to God due to their sexual deviancy, were consecrated as priests, during the early 60s and these contributed to the downfall of the Latin branch of the church.

I do agree that popes still rejected modernism and wrote wonderful documents in the 60s.
The media, alone, played a huge part in the societal changes and in any case simultaneous factors converged that made possible and prompted people on a large collective scale to experiment with what really only amounts to the age-old bid for freedom/autonomy from God, “freedom” being the operative word: the chief idol and temptation of fallen man. Freedom from God was Adam’s objective in his act of disobedience-and many people, inside and outside of the churches, have followed the same siren call in recent generations. People, as always, are an obstinate bunch.

I agree. I can think of several TV shows that glamorized lifestyles that were contrary to God's plan for men.

And Vat II, itself, BTW, teaches that everyone, including all ministers of the church, must "follow constantly the path of penance and renewal."
Unfortunately, too many ministers neglect to preach Vatican II's repentance and conversion mandate.
Following this mandate is actually what saves souls.

Thank you for the discussion. I enjoyed it. :)
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
16,778
4,209
✟415,441.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Unfortunately, men who were unacceptable to God due to their sexual deviancy, were consecrated as priests, during the early 60s and these contributed to the downfall of the Latin branch of the church.

I do agree that popes still rejected modernism and wrote wonderful documents in the 60s.


I agree. I can think of several TV shows that glamorized lifestyles that were contrary to God's plan for men.


Unfortunately, too many ministers neglect to preach Vatican II's repentance and conversion mandate.
Following this mandate is actually what saves souls.

Thank you for the discussion. I enjoyed it. :)
Thank you as well, for a civil discussion.

I'll only add that the church has been guilty of lax oversight and over-tolerance in the past but the screening now is much more rigorous than before for new priests. Either way, I assume the church will become smaller but sounder and more serious about ensuring holiness in the future. And I think the goodness of the last Vatican council will shine through increasingly in the coming centuries. Some scandal will continue to raise its head in any case, however, because humans will continue to be humans in this life, or less than human, perhaps, to put it better.
 
Upvote 0

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
2,991
465
Midwest
✟228,788.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Thank you as well, for a civil discussion.

I'll only add that the church has been guilty of lax oversight and over-tolerance in the past but the screening now is much more rigorous than before for new priests. Either way, I assume the church will become smaller but sounder and more serious about ensuring holiness in the future. And I think the goodness of the last Vatican council will shine through increasingly in the coming centuries. Some scandal will continue to raise its head in any case, however, because humans will continue to be humans in this life, or less than human, perhaps, to put it better.
I agree.
 
Upvote 0