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Jesus was born on July 27, 7 BCE. Merry Christmas!

AFrazier

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I don't think Deborah was claiming it's in our current copies of the Gospel of James (or Protoevangelium of James, or Infancy Gospel of James). The statements of "earlier version of the Gospel of James" indicate the claim was rather that the writers were quoting from an earlier version of it we don't have, and the quote isn't in the copies we do.

And that is more clear after I discovered where Deborah's claims were coming from. Wondering if maybe these arguments were being taken from someone else, I did a search for part of the quote that Deborah listed as being from Nicephorus ("But it was in her fifteenth year on the 25th day of December that she bore the Light of the World. And when he who was the eternal and before all ages Word had passed thirty-three years, her son went forth from the earth. After the cross, however, at his request, she completed eleven years in the home of John, so that the whole age of her life being gathered together were fifty-nine years.") and turned up the following article:

This is an article (published in Dallas Theological Seminary's journal Bibliotheca Sacra) by Kurt Simmons. Kurt Simmons is a proponent of December 25 being the date of Jesus's birth (he has a website about it!) and has written various articles--some published in theological journals--arguing there is evidence of early recognition of December 25 as Christmas. The above article is concerning the Theophilus citation. Now, the author of this article presents a more nuanced approach than Deborah did; he does not claim that the work is actually from Theophilus and in fact admits it is from a later time period. His assertion is instead that even though it's from later, it could still be giving correct information about prior practice. It also mentions Julius Africanus, the Protoevangelium of James, and Nicephorus quoting Evodius, just like Deborah's post did. What clinches that this is the source of those statements is it makes the same typo in the citation as Deborah offered, saying "Nicephorus Calistus, Ecclesiastical History 3.2" when it should be "Nicephorus Callistus, Ecclesiastical History 2.3." So a lot of these talking points seem to be from Kurt Simmons.

With the source known, the arguments become more clear. Now, the Julius/Protoevangelium/Nicephorus portions in the above article are basically abbreviated versions of the argument the author made in an earlier article (mentioned in a footnote) called "Revisiting The Fathers: An Examination of the Christmas Date in Several Early Patristic Writers", published in "Questions Liturgiques" (a journal published by KU Leuven University). The article can be found here or here. The argument, to try to summarize briefly, is that there was an earlier version of the Protoevangelium of James that did mention a December 25 date, which is what is being quoted by Nicephorus, but the copies we have of the Protoevangelium of James now were rewritten and do not include that mention. Since the Protoevangelium of James dates from the second century, this means an earlier one would be in the second century at the latest and provide evidence for December 25 in the second century. As for Julius Africanus, while we have no explicit quotation from him mentioning December 25 (we possess only fragments of his work), it is asserted that parts of the Excerpta Latinae Barbari (which mentions a December 25 birth date) match up so well with what we know of Julius's writings that the December 25 in it seems to have been taken from Julius, which would be an early source for December 25. There are other things brought up in the article (for example, it discusses Hippolytus, borrowing heavily--by the author's own admission--from Thomas Schmidt's argument that the December 25 reference is legitimate and not an interpolation), but those are the ones about Julius/Protoevangelium/Nicephorus.

One can read the article itself for more in-depth information on the author's reasons for these conclusions to see if they agree. Unfortunately, Deborah's post left out some of this information and thus ended up being very confusing. For example, as noted, Julius Africanus mentions December 25 in no surviving text; Kurt Simmons admits this, but argues that there is evidence he did. The arguments were not included in Deborah's post and thus it simply asserts Julius Africanus mentions it, leaving a reader confused. I wish Deborah had linked to the article(s) directly so the information would be more clear (perhaps this was done in a previous post and I missed it).

So anyway, that's basically where the claims appear to come from. You can take a look at Kurt Simmons's "Revisiting The Fathers: An Examination of the Christmas Date in Several Early Patristic Writers" article yourself (or his others) and see what you think of its arguments.
Okay, I read both articles. Neither proves anything. He even admits that the Theophilus document was considered an Irish forgery, but claims it was resolved by the Council of Whitby in AD 663. But he also notes that the Christmas date is found in recension A, while also noting that Eusebius is mentioned in recension A. Conversely, recension B contains neither. Although he attempts to make a case for the date's authenticity nonetheless, it's a plain fact that if the author of the work mentioned Eusebius, then the document is fourth century or later, and therefore not authentic.

Meanwhile, his other argument concerning Julius Africanus demonstrates a possible trace of calculation theory. However, I don't personally find this significant. Julius Africanus lived from 160-240 CE, Hippolytus from 170-235 CE. They were direct contemporaries. Given the fact that both of their works were well circulated and known by many, it's very easy to speculate that contemporaneous authors with access to each other's works could easily result in one or the other being derivative.

It is my opinion that the document for Theophilus is a fabrication, and it is my position that neither Hippolytus nor Africanus demonstrate any definitive evidence for a tradition of December 25th outside of their own theosophical calculations. Simmons wrote a great article, but it's only convincing in a bubble. If you're already aware of many of the facts, it packs a whole lot less punch.
 
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Deborah~

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This is where I'm having a difficulty in your dismissal of Clement. There is a record of other dates, namely, the 25th of Pachons, the 24th of Pharmouthi, and the 25th of Pharmouthi. And these predate Hippolytus.
You know my time constraints, so I can't respond to this fully this morning. But I do want to correct you. I do not "dismiss" Clement. I simply do not agree with you on what the debated passage from his Stromata is referring to, whether birth or conception. I believe it was referring to Jesus' conception because of earlier traditions, not because of any Rabbinic notions. These early Christians were very critical of Rabbinism, especially Rabbinic Messianism.

In Christ,
Deborah
 
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Deborah~

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I wish Deborah had linked to the article(s) directly so the information would be more clear
I had in my notes Mr. Simmons' request on this paper: "IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO CITE THIS PAPER IN YOUR RESEARCH, PLEASE WAIT UNTIL IT IS PUBLISHED IN BIBLIOTHECA SACRA SO THAT YOU CAN CITE THE PROPER PAGE NUMBERS IN THE PUBLISHED VERSION" (all caps original)

My apologies for causing confusion and not citing this paper. I do have much more to offer, but this seemed like a good jumping off point and does raise the issues I want to address ... as soon as I can carve out some time. I am winding down a big project for a client so please be patient with my tardiness in responding. I would much rather be talking with you guys than prepping for tax audits ...

In Christ,
Deborah
 
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BukiRob

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I dont think Jesus is going to be upset if we celebrate His birthday on a date which may not be accurate.

It was approx 2,000 years ago!

Celebrating His birth is the most important thing even if the date cannot be 100% verified.
His birth is NOWHERE near as Important as his resurrection.
 
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David Lamb

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Even so, we used a pagan birthday to celebrate Christ's death.
Those Christians who celebrate certain days as special tend to celebrate Christ's death on Good Friday. As the date of Good Friday changes year by year, who, pagan or otherwise, can be truly said to have a birthday on Good Friday?
 
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BukiRob

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Except Jehovah's Witnesses and Messianic Jews, who I believe both use the traditional Passover dates.
Messianic Congregations observe Passover the same time that Orthodox Synagogues.
 
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From Luke Chapter 1:5, 23-24, 26-27, 35-36

[5] There was in the days of Herod (being 8 B.C., Harod dies in 4 B.C.), the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias of the course of Abia:

(A course is a period of time to serve in the priest's duties, two courses per month, 24 courses in a year, 14 to 15 days each, each with its own name.
The division of the courses are found in 1 Chr 24:1-19, Abia was the eighth course and coincides with the fourth Hebrew month, Tammuz (June-July).
Zacharias kept his time of duty till the end of the month) and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

[23] And it came to pass, that, as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house.
[24] And after those days (of Zacharias's ministration) his wife Elisabeth conceived (in the 5th month, Av (July-August)), and hid herself five months (including the 5th month going to the 9th month of the Hebrew calendar, Kislev, (November-December)

[26] And in the sixth month (of Elisabeth's pregnancy, the Hebrew 10th month, Tevet, (December-January)) the angel (messenger) Gabriel (God) was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
[27] To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary

[35] And the angel (messenger) answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
[36] And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son (John) in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

(Jesus born 9 months after the Jewish 10th month in the Jewish 7th month, Tishrei (September-October) of the Jubilee year 7 B.C. (a Jubilee year is every 50 years)
The day of atonement is the 10th day of the Jewish 7th month, our Oct 1st).
 
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AFrazier

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From Luke Chapter 1:5, 23-24, 26-27, 35-36

[5] There was in the days of Herod (being 8 B.C., Harod dies in 4 B.C.), the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias of the course of Abia:

(A course is a period of time to serve in the priest's duties, two courses per month, 24 courses in a year, 14 to 15 days each, each with its own name.
The division of the courses are found in 1 Chr 24:1-19, Abia was the eighth course and coincides with the fourth Hebrew month, Tammuz (June-July).
Zacharias kept his time of duty till the end of the month) and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

[23] And it came to pass, that, as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house.
[24] And after those days (of Zacharias's ministration) his wife Elisabeth conceived (in the 5th month, Av (July-August)), and hid herself five months (including the 5th month going to the 9th month of the Hebrew calendar, Kislev, (November-December)

[26] And in the sixth month (of Elisabeth's pregnancy, the Hebrew 10th month, Tevet, (December-January)) the angel (messenger) Gabriel (God) was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
[27] To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary

[35] And the angel (messenger) answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
[36] And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son (John) in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

(Jesus born 9 months after the Jewish 10th month in the Jewish 7th month, Tishrei (September-October) of the Jubilee year 7 B.C. (a Jubilee year is every 50 years)
The day of atonement is the 10th day of the Jewish 7th month, our Oct 1st).
Apart from the scripture quotations themselves, nothing you said here is factually correct. Not insulting you. Just saying for your own edification. The courses weren't two weeks long. They were one week. The courses rotated, so without an anchor point, you can't say where Zecharias' course started. If you did know where his courses started, you couldn't say if it was his first, second, or in some years third course of service for the given year. 7 BCE was nowhere near the year of Jubilee, by the original cycle established according to Ezekiel 40:1, or the presumed reinstituted cycle that would have started coincident to the rebuilding of the temple, at which time the priestly courses were reestablished, the Sabbatical year cycle was restarted, and where the the Jubilee cycle would have been restarted if it was so (which may be the case relative to Nehemiah 1:1 and 2:1). Neither enumeration puts the fiftieth year anywhere near 7 BCE.
 
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BukiRob

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Do Messianic Jews Celebrate Easter? | Jewish Voice ????
That depends on what you mean by celebrate... Do messianic make it a holiday a feast NO. As believers do well celebrate the ressurection ABSOLUTELY.

Easter stems out of the error of Rome. The initial issue is the debate over Passover. Both ROME and the Church in Asia minor celebrated AND OBSERVED PASSOVER exactly as prescribed in scripture. A disagreement over when was to be observed rose. Rome departed from scripture opting for a FIXED Sunday was chosen by the Bishop in Rome(Victor) and Polycarp the bishop of SMYRNA and a direct disciple of John the apostle disagreed and said that John taught otherwise that it was to be observed the 14th of Nissan.
Yeshua warned a little bit of leaven, leavens the whole lump... we see the ERROR start there and spin WILDLY out of control. MANY of the things the "church" does is GROSS error.

There is no more foundational issue than the Sabbath. Sabbath is the final act of creation. Not a single verse in any book of the bible tells the reader that the sabbath has been done away with and as such a foundational issue, you can not romanticize Christ as being our Sabbath. And something as foundational as that REQUIRES clear unambiguous scripture to justify its exclusion. Christ at NO point did away with Sabbath, all 12 apostles up to their deaths observed it... so...
 
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Mockingbird0

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Both ROME and the Church in Asia minor celebrated AND OBSERVED PASSOVER exactly as prescribed in scripture. A disagreement over when was to be observed rose. Rome departed from scripture opting for a FIXED Sunday was chosen by the Bishop in Rome(Victor) and Polycarp the bishop of SMYRNA and a direct disciple of John the apostle disagreed and said that John taught otherwise that it was to be observed the 14th of Nissan.
False. Eusebius's account identifies both the Nisan 14 practice and the Sunday practice as being old and established by the time the quarrel between Victor and Polycrates (not Polycarp) broke out. The Sunday practice was the majority practice (Church History 5.23). The Nisan 14 practice was used only in the Roman Province of Asia (not all of Asia Minor).
 
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