• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Protestant pastor expelled for refusing to participate in Catholic ritual in Mexico

Michie

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
187,161
69,321
Woods
✟6,295,919.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Officials in a village in southern Mexico’s Oaxaca state detained for five days and then expelled a Protestant pastor for refusing to participate in Catholic church rituals, according to a U.K-based advocacy group.

In Santiago Malacatepec, San Juan Mazatlán Municipality in eastern Oaxaca, local Catholics on Jan. 15 ordered Pastor Mariano Velásquez Martínez to light candles, kneel and pray to an image of St. James as part of the village’s Roman Catholic festival, Christian Solidarity Worldwide (CSW) reported.

Pastor Velásquez Martínez had accepted a leadership position in the community on the understanding that he would be required only to provide candles and flowers for the Catholic festival, according to CSW. When he refused to kneel and pray to the image, a festival leader complained to village leaders.

Continued below.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Pioneer3mm

RileyG

Veteran
Christian Forums Staff
Red Team - Moderator
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Feb 10, 2013
40,298
22,874
30
Nebraska
✟944,538.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
That’s wrong, and I’m stating that as a faithful Catholic.

Everyone without exception has the right to choose how they want to worship. Period.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
30,876
13,901
78
✟463,971.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
That’s wrong, and I’m stating that as a faithful Catholic.

Everyone without exception has the right to choose how they want to worship. Period.
What's bizarre was until recently, the government was officially anti-Catholic, even to the point of forbidding priests to wear clerics in public.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FireDragon76
Upvote 0

RileyG

Veteran
Christian Forums Staff
Red Team - Moderator
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Feb 10, 2013
40,298
22,874
30
Nebraska
✟944,538.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
What's bizarre was until recently, the government was officially anti-Catholic, even to the point of forbidding priests to wear clerics in public.
Ah, yes. I think there was one Mexican faithful who was recently beatified* who died because of the government. His name is Blessed Miguel Pro.

I wonder how many faithful priests and religious sisters and nuns Mexico provided for the Church?

Many Hispanic Catholics from many different countries are very, very devout.

Blessings!

*he was beatified in 1988. But I’ve heard of him a lot recently.
 
  • Like
Reactions: joymercy
Upvote 0

tdidymas

Newbie
Aug 28, 2014
2,881
1,149
Houston, TX
✟226,807.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Officials in a village in southern Mexico’s Oaxaca state detained for five days and then expelled a Protestant pastor for refusing to participate in Catholic church rituals, according to a U.K-based advocacy group.

In Santiago Malacatepec, San Juan Mazatlán Municipality in eastern Oaxaca, local Catholics on Jan. 15 ordered Pastor Mariano Velásquez Martínez to light candles, kneel and pray to an image of St. James as part of the village’s Roman Catholic festival, Christian Solidarity Worldwide (CSW) reported.

Pastor Velásquez Martínez had accepted a leadership position in the community on the understanding that he would be required only to provide candles and flowers for the Catholic festival, according to CSW. When he refused to kneel and pray to the image, a festival leader complained to village leaders.

Continued below.
It is interesting that the Catholic churches in Oaxaca persecute a protestant who refuses to worship (venerate) an idol, but those same churches "manage" syncretism with local superstitious practices, including Santeria. Just a few minutes of cursory research reveals this fact.
 
Upvote 0

Michie

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
187,161
69,321
Woods
✟6,295,919.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It is interesting that the Catholic churches in Oaxaca persecute a protestant who refuses to worship (venerate) an idol, but those same churches "manage" syncretism with local superstitious practices, including Santeria. Just a few minutes of cursory research reveals this fact.
The Church has spoken out against such practices. But I posted this for those interested in discussing something other than politics. I’m getting ready to relax. I have to take my mom to an appointment tomorrow.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RileyG
Upvote 0

tdidymas

Newbie
Aug 28, 2014
2,881
1,149
Houston, TX
✟226,807.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
The Church has spoken out against such practices. But I posted this for those interested in discussing something other than politics. I’m getting ready to relax. I have to take my mom to an appointment tomorrow.
Persecution of Christians is all about politics. Those in power abusing their authority or influence. But my point was to show how hypocritical they are, regardless if they "speak out against" superstitious practices. The fact that they are "managing" it means they tolerate it, and compare that to the persecution of a man who doesn't want to commit idolatry. Can you see how hypocritical that is? Do you see my point?
 
Upvote 0

Michie

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
187,161
69,321
Woods
✟6,295,919.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Persecution of Christians is all about politics. Those in power abusing their authority or influence. But my point was to show how hypocritical they are, regardless if they "speak out against" superstitious practices. The fact that they are "managing" it means they tolerate it, and compare that to the persecution of a man who doesn't want to commit idolatry. Can you see how hypocritical that is? Do you see my point?
I hold to the actual teachings of the Church. Not partisan clergy which every Church has.
 
Upvote 0

tdidymas

Newbie
Aug 28, 2014
2,881
1,149
Houston, TX
✟226,807.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
I hold to the actual teachings of the Church. Not partisan clergy which every Church has.
You don't have to make it personal. I was merely stating a fact about those churches in that region, in response to the article you posted. Churches tend to be either biblical or cultic, depending on the leadership.
 
Upvote 0

Michie

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
187,161
69,321
Woods
✟6,295,919.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You don't have to make it personal. I was merely stating a fact about those churches in that region, in response to the article you posted. Churches tend to be either biblical or cultic, depending on the leadership.
I didn’t make it personal. I’m sorry you took it that way. It was not intentional. My point is that there are the tares and the wheat. What we all need to do is stop distracting ourselves no matter where we are and focus on the teachings of the gospel and the Churches we attend. I can disagree with whomever within the Church but in the end it comes down to being a good witness and working out our own salvation. I’ve come to a point it does not matter what others in the Church do. I can voice my disagreement but I cannot let what they do distract me from the greater purpose. Be aware and alert of course but I do what I can where I can but I’m certainly not going to consume myself or condone what everyone else is doing. And that includes other Christian believers outside my particular Church. Remember the wheat and the tares.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,859
21,057
Orlando, Florida
✟1,576,711.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
That’s wrong, and I’m stating that as a faithful Catholic.

Everyone without exception has the right to choose how they want to worship. Period.

That's what I think too.

There's an old Anglican/Episcopalian saying, "all can, some should, none must".
 
  • Like
Reactions: Michie
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,859
21,057
Orlando, Florida
✟1,576,711.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
It is interesting that the Catholic churches in Oaxaca persecute a protestant who refuses to worship (venerate) an idol, but those same churches "manage" syncretism with local superstitious practices, including Santeria. Just a few minutes of cursory research reveals this fact.

Santeria is practiced (by some) in Cuba, Dominican Republic, and Puerto Rico... not in Mexico. And it's actually a non-Christian religion altogether.

The Catholic church doesn't encourage syncretism, however it's also wise not to be quick to condemn indigenous spirituality anymore. Latin American still has alot of idigenous communities, much moreso than North America. Many Native Americans do not believe their own ancestral ways or wisdom should necessarily be regarded as inferior, or that following Jesus means that one must adopt an exclusivist religious worldview.

What is being described here is more like folk Catholicism that probably has deep roots in the community (St. James is a popular saint throughout the Spanish speaking world, going back to the medieval period), and this isn't so much a religious ceremony in the towns eyes as a cultural rite, and the pastors reticence may be seen as marking him outside the community, as disrespecting their customs. That doesn't make it right, but this isn't about "syncretism" in the usual sense.
 
Upvote 0

Michie

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
187,161
69,321
Woods
✟6,295,919.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Santeria is absolutely practiced in Mexico and mixed with Catholicism. I have Mexican friends and a priest that says as much. Let alone what I see sold in my local Mexican grocery store as tokens. Just saying… they know and they have no reason to lie. The drug cartels there seem to practice a lot as well… ( Santa Muerte a go to for them). The Catholic Church has spoken out and condemned such practices.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,859
21,057
Orlando, Florida
✟1,576,711.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Santeria is absolutely practiced in Mexico and mixed with Catholicism. I have Mexican friends and a priest that says as much. Let alone what I see sold in my local Mexican grocery store as tokens. Just saying… they know and they have no reason to lie. The drug cartels there seem to practice a lot as well… ( Santa Muerte a go to for them). The Catholic Church has spoken out and condemned such practices.

Those are folk saints, not an actual religion per se, whereas Santeiria is a complete religious belief system that's African in origin, but appropriate Christian symbols. The idea that drug cartels have patron saints unique to them is more of a fantasy dreamed up by gringos. In rural Mexico and Latin America, people commonly have devotions to all kinds of folk saints. This is often how people become canonize officially in the first place. Oscar Romero was venerated as a saint for many decades before he was even beatified.

Santa Muerte has her origins actually in late medieval personifications of death, but it's mixed with sentiments common to pre-contact Mexican spirituality, that death has power or weight, and isn't merely something to be feared. She became associated with being the patron of social outcasts in general. It speaks more to the rapid social changes that have happened in Mexico in the last half century.
 
Upvote 0

Michie

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
187,161
69,321
Woods
✟6,295,919.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Those are folk saints, not an actual religion per se, whereas Santeiria is a complete religious belief system that's African in origin, but appropriate Christian symbols. The idea that drug cartels have patron saints unique to them is more of a fantasy dreamed up by gringos. In rural Mexico and Latin America, people commonly have devotions to all kinds of folk saints. This is often how people become canonize officially in the first place. Oscar Romero was venerated as a saint for many decades before he was even beatified.

Santa Muerte has her origins actually in late medieval personifications of death, but it's mixed with sentiments common to pre-contact Mexican spirituality, that death has power or weight, and isn't merely something to be feared. She became associated with being the patron of social outcasts in general. It speaks more to the rapid social changes that have happened in Mexico in the last half century.
Well you can believe as you choose. I know first hand that it is practiced there. Santa Muerte is a fantasy. It’s not a real Saint and the image was sold at the local Mexican grocer until recently. It’s not something made up by gringos as you call it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RileyG
Upvote 0

RileyG

Veteran
Christian Forums Staff
Red Team - Moderator
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Feb 10, 2013
40,298
22,874
30
Nebraska
✟944,538.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
It is interesting that the Catholic churches in Oaxaca persecute a protestant who refuses to worship (venerate) an idol, but those same churches "manage" syncretism with local superstitious practices, including Santeria. Just a few minutes of cursory research reveals this fact.
Catholics don’t worship idols. There might be some involved in Santeria do, but Catholics only worship God and God alone,
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Michie
Upvote 0

RileyG

Veteran
Christian Forums Staff
Red Team - Moderator
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Feb 10, 2013
40,298
22,874
30
Nebraska
✟944,538.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
  • Agree
Reactions: Michie
Upvote 0

RileyG

Veteran
Christian Forums Staff
Red Team - Moderator
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Feb 10, 2013
40,298
22,874
30
Nebraska
✟944,538.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Those are folk saints, not an actual religion per se, whereas Santeiria is a complete religious belief system that's African in origin, but appropriate Christian symbols. The idea that drug cartels have patron saints unique to them is more of a fantasy dreamed up by gringos. In rural Mexico and Latin America, people commonly have devotions to all kinds of folk saints. This is often how people become canonize officially in the first place. Oscar Romero was venerated as a saint for many decades before he was even beatified.

Santa Muerte has her origins actually in late medieval personifications of death, but it's mixed with sentiments common to pre-contact Mexican spirituality, that death has power or weight, and isn't merely something to be feared. She became associated with being the patron of social outcasts in general. It speaks more to the rapid social changes that have happened in Mexico in the last half century.
Isn’t Santeria similar to how Hoodoo (and voodoo for that matter) was/is practiced by some Catholic faithful? It’s mixing of different religions with Catholicism. IIRC
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,859
21,057
Orlando, Florida
✟1,576,711.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Isn’t Santeria similar to how Hoodoo (and voodoo for that matter) was/is practiced by some Catholic faithful? It’s mixing of different religions with Catholicism. IIRC

It's closer to Voodoo (hoodoo is African-American folk magic, not a religion per se). They are actually completely distinct religions. I wouldn't describe them as syncretistic in the usual sense- once you get beyond some of the shallow symbolism, you have essentially a west African religion with no Catholic influence (unlike a genuinely syncretic religion, like the Vietnamese religion of Cao Dai). Santeiria sometimes hides its meaning behind Catholic saints, but it isn't a very serious effort, IMO.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RileyG
Upvote 0