David C. Pack asks; "Were the 10 Cs "Done away"? ... And nothing ever; on 2 Cor 3:7? P2.

There's a lot more than 1 denomination to worship God on His Sabbath and holy day


"Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

The only laws that changed were the ones that came after sin that pointed to Jesus and His great sacrifice and what He was predicted to change that were written by Moses Dan9:27

The commandments that God wrote Himself that is a reflection of His character - perfect Psa19:7 holy, just and good Rom7:12 thats God wrote and is God's Temple in Heaven Exo 25:21 Exo31:18 Rev 15:5 Rev 11:19 will never change according to God. Psa 89:34 Mat5:18-19 Ecc3:14

Its what the controversy is about do we follow the crowd and the popular traditions of man, or stay faithful to God, even if everyone around you says you're wrong. And we will see this debate escalate as man-made laws are established and enforced that is in direct conflict with the law of God, similar to what happened in Daniels day.

SabbatarianSundayer said:

David C. Pack asks; "Were the 10 Cs "Done away"? ... And nothing ever; on 2 Cor 3:7? P2.

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The command to keep the Sabbath holy written on stone has the same content as the command to keep the Sabbath holy written on our hearts.

SabbatarianSundayer said:

We saw; David declares, Christ did not do away with them at crucifixion.

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In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from any laws but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Christ accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of God, which includes keeping the Sabbath holy.

SabbatarianSundayer said:

We do not see; all 10 taught in the N.T.

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In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of God was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which includes repenting from breaking the Sabbath. Jesus also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God, so he would have still taught full obedience to it by example even if he had said nothing, which included keeping the Sabbath holy, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6).

SabbatarianSundayer said:

God expects all people to obey them?; and nothing on Col 2:16-17; 2 Cor 3:7.

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The Colossians were celebrating God's feasts in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow of how tow all in obedience to the Law of God, they were being judged for doing that by pagans who were promoting human precepts and traditions, self-made religion, asceticsm, and severity to the body, and Paul was encouraging them not to let anyone judge them for doing that. Those promoting asceticism and severity to the body would be judging people for celebrating feasts, not for refraining from doing that. God's feasts are foreshadows of what is to come and we should live in a way that testifies about the truth of what is to come, so Paul was emphasizing the importance of not allowing anyone to prevent us from obeying what God has commanded.

SabbatarianSundayer said:

"Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."
Yet the laws do change; as David will not point out.
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

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God's character traits are eternal, therefore any instructions that God has ever given for how to embody His character traits are eternally and cumulatively valid regardless of which covenant someone is under. For example, God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore all of God's righteous laws are also eternal (Psalms 119:160), and the only way to abolish instructions for how to embody God's righteousness would be by first abolishing God's righteousness. Being a doer of charity was a way to embody God's righteousness before God made any covenants with man, so that is an eternally valid way to know God even for those who are not in a covenant relationship with Him. Likewise, sin was in the world before the law was given (Romans 5:13), so there were no actions that became righteous or sinful when the law was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that.

So Hebrews 7:12 could not be referring to a change of the law in regard to its content such as with it becoming righteous to commit murder or sinful to do charity, but rather the context is speaking about a change of the priesthood, which would also require a change of the law in regard to its administration. A priesthood that is headed by God's Word made flesh does not involve departing from embodying God's Word.

SabbatarianSundayer said:

No mention of reiterations in the N.T.

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Jesus said that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God, so he affirmed God as being an authoritative source, which includes affirming what God spoke in Deuteronomy 5:12-15 in regard to keeping the Sabbath holy, and we have no need for the NT to specifically reiterate everything that God has spoken in order to know that we should still follow what He has spoken.

SabbatarianSundayer said:

A big speal about how most Christians pick and choose what to follow about God's word; and no mention about the law of Christ; Gal 6: 2.
"This picking and choosing; is most obvious in the Sabbath command. And the 4th command IS in the N.T."
No immediate mention of Col 2:16-17;

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I see no justification for thinking that the Law of Christ is something other than or contrary to anything that Christ has taught or that God has spoken.

SabbatarianSundayer said:

and does conveniently mention Heb 4:9.
And no mention of a direct Sabbath statement as Lev 23:11.

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In Hebrews 3:18-19, they did not enter into God's rest because of their disobedience/unbelief, and in Ezekiel 20:13, it specifically mentions that they greatly profaned God's Sabbaths, so someone should not think that they can enter into God's rest while having the same disobedience/unbelief that prevented the Israelites from entering into God's rest. In Hebrews 4:9-11, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, we should rest from our works as God rested from His work, and we should be careful to enter into that rest so that no one might fall away by the same sort of disobedience, so we should still keep the Sabbath holy.

SabbatarianSundayer said:

If Heb 4:9 is my Sabbath command; then why is my only option for Sabbath; an "Ellen" church?

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There are others who keep the Sabbath holy, such as with Messianic Judaism. Someone does not need to consider the writings of EGW to be authoritative in order to take the position that followers of Christ would follow his example of obedience to what God has commanded.

SabbatarianSundayer said:

Jesus is Lord of Sabbath; Mark 2:27-28;
And not Sunday; as David points out? And nothing about John 20:26.

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I don't follow the logic of someone thinking that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath means that the Sabbath is unimportant to keep.

SabbatarianSundayer said:

"N.T. grace has nothing to do with abolishing God's laws."
2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
And no explanation on Gal 6:2; the law of Christ.

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In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith does not abolish the Law of God, but rather our faith upholds it.

SabbatarianSundayer said:

Does the "Ministration of death"; mean the 10 Cs? David it seems; won't go there; ... Much less to explain that 2 Cor 3:7; means the 10cs is ABOLISHED.

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The fact that the Law of God is a ministration of death for those who refuse to submit to it is not a very good reason to refuse to submit to it.

SabbatarianSundayer said:

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
DOES NOT MEAN; THOSE WHO THINK THEY KEEP SABBATH!

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Indeed, the way to have faith in Jesus is by obeying God's commandments, or in other words, the way to have faith in God's Word made flesh is by following his example of embodying God's Word.

SabbatarianSundayer said:

The 10 Cs; are not ordained from the time of creation.

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The way to embody God's character traits has existed from the time of creation, so all of God's laws were ordained from the time of creation, not just ten of them.

Yes, the ministration of death and condemnation, the letter that kills is clearly stated as the law engraved in stone, only the TC were engraved in stone, the rest of the law was written on parchments.
The TC are done away with as a law as we all naturally understand law to mean, for that law comes in two parts, what is written in the law and the penalty for transgression, that type of law has been abolished, for Jesus died to pay the penalty of our transgression.
However what is written in that law is holy, just and good(Rom7:12) Jesus did not die to abolish what is holy, just and good, he died to end man's condemnation under what is holy, just and good. God transferred what is written in applicable law from an external law engraved in stone and placed it internally in believers hearts and minds. It simply means, in your mind you instinctively know how God wants you to live, you know God does not want you to steal, murder, commit adultery, bear false witness, covet, take his name in vain. And in your heart(the flesh is another matter) you do not want to do things for that is where what is written in the law now is
No need to think of it as a law as such, its just part of your spiritual dna in Christ, it is in your most inward parts.
So, no more ministry of death and condemnation for Jesus died for your transgressions of it:
Your sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
No licence to sin, for in your mind you know how God wants you to live and in your heart you want to live that way
Note the order in which the new covenant is stated. You only get a saviour from sin because what was written in the law is now in your heart and mind

under grace1 said:

Yes, the ministration of death and condemnation, the letter that kills is clearly stated as the law engraved in stone, only the TC were engraved in stone, the rest of the law was written on parchments.
The TC are done away with as a law as we all naturally understand law to mean, for that law comes in two parts, what is written in the law and the penalty for transgression, that type of law has been abolished, for Jesus died to pay the penalty of our transgression.
However what is written in that law is holy, just and good(Rom7:12) Jesus did not die to abolish what is holy, just and good, he died to end man's condemnation under what is holy, just and good. God transferred what is written in applicable law from an external law engraved in stone and placed it internally in believers hearts and minds. It simply means, in your mind you instinctively know how God wants you to live, you know God does not want you to steal, murder, commit adultery, bear false witness, covet, take his name in vain. And in your heart(the flesh is another matter) you do not want to do things for that is where what is written in the law now is
No need to think of it as a law as such, its just part of your spiritual dna in Christ, it is in your most inward parts.
So, no more ministry of death and condemnation for Jesus died for your transgressions of it:
Your sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
No licence to sin, for in your mind you know how God wants you to live and in your heart you want to live that way
Note the order in which the new covenant is stated. You only get a saviour from sin because what was written in the law is now in your heart and mind

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The fact that the Law of God is a ministration of death for those who refuse to submit to it is not a very good reason to refuse to submit to it. Changing the medium upon which the Law of God is written from on stone to on our hearts does not change the content of what it instructs. For example, the command to keep the Sabbath holy written on stone has the same content as the command to keep the Sabbath holy written on our hearts. If "the letter" referred to correctly following God's instructions and that leads to death, then that would mean that God would be misleading us and shouldn't be trusted. The Bible repeatedly states that the New Covenant involves following the Law of God, that the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of God, and that obedience to the Law of God leads to life, so 2 Corinthians 3:6 should be interpreted in a way that is in accordance with the rest of the Bible rather than a way that overturns the rest of the Bible and there must be something deficient about following "the letter" that is not correctly following what God instructed that causes it to lead to death rather than life.

In Psalms 119:160, all of God's righteous laws are eternal. In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus specifically said that he came not to abolish the law and he warned against relaxing the least part of it. In Romans 3:31, Paul also affirmed that our faith does not abolish the Law of God, but rather our faith upholds it.

Soyeong said:

The fact that the Law of God is a ministration of death for those who refuse to submit to it is not a very good reason to refuse to submit to it.

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Im amazed why you do not know why the letter of the TC kills:
Thou shalt NOT dwell on any impure thought
Thou shalt NOT desire anything of your neighbours whether material goods or a member of their household
Thou shalt NOT tell any even little fibs about another.
Thou shalt NOT have wrong thoughts or desires
Thou shalt NOT have lust/sexual desire for anyone apart from your spouse
Thou shalt NOT erect any graven image in your mind

How well are you submitting to that law?

The TC are an inflexible law thou shalt NOT, no wiggle room for error, perfectly obey them or stand guilty before them. There is nothing about mercy, compassion, or allowing for human frailties in them

Of course, if people live with a watered down version of those laws in their lives, they never will understand 2Cor3:6-9 But there is no watered down version of them in the bible!

under grace1 said:

Im amazed why you do not know why the letter of the TC kills:
Thou shalt NOT dwell on any impure thought
Thou shalt NOT desire anything of your neighbours whether material goods or a member of their household
Thou shalt NOT tell any even little fibs about another.
Thou shalt NOT have wrong thoughts or desires
Thou shalt NOT have lust/sexual desire for anyone apart from your spouse
Thou shalt NOT erect any graven image in your mind

How well are you submitting to that law?

The TC are an inflexible law thou shalt NOT, no wiggle room for error, perfectly obey them or stand guilty before them. There is nothing about mercy, compassion, or allowing for human frailties in them

Of course, if people live with a watered down version of those laws in their lives, they never will understand 2Cor3:6-9 But there is no watered down version of them in the bible!

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In Romans 10:5-10, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith hat we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have not had perfect obedience, so if we needed to have perfect obedience for so some strange reason then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we are not required to have perfect obedience. The only reason why someone would need to have perfect obedience is if they are going to give themselves to pay for the sins of the world - the rest of us can thankfully have our sins forgiven. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that justice, mercy, and faith are weightier matters of the Law of God. It is contradictory to think that God is merciful and compassionate while also thinking that he is a a giver of instructions that are devoid of mercy and compassion.

Soyeong said:

In Romans 10:5-10, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith hat we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have not had perfect obedience, so if we needed to have perfect obedience for so some strange reason then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we are not required to have perfect obedience. The only reason why someone would need to have perfect obedience is if they are going to give themselves to pay for the sins of the world - the rest of us can thankfully have our sins forgiven. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that justice, mercy, and faith are weightier matters of the Law of God. It is contradictory to think that God is merciful and compassionate while also thinking that he is a a giver of instructions that are devoid of mercy and compassion.

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Paul tells us, if we have never known of biblical law we can show the requirements(not some of the requirements) of the law are written on our hearts, obviously by the way we act(Rom2:14&15)
Bearing that in mind, he couldn't have been relating that law to Deut 30 could he

under grace1 said:

Paul tells us, if we have never known of biblical law we can show the requirements(not some of the requirements) of the law are written on our hearts, obviously by the way we act(Rom2:14&15)

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Those verses speak about Gentiles who do not have the law, not Gentiles who have never known it. Having the law revers to having physical possession of a Torah scroll (Romans 3:1-2). Believing Gentiles will by nature be doers of what the Torah instructs, which included keeping the Sabbath holy.

under grace1 said:

Bearing that in mind, he couldn't have been relating that law to Deut 30 could he

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I think that your sentence was incomplete, but yes, Paul was referencing Deuteronomy 30, which speaks about the Torah.

Soyeong said:

Those verses speak about Gentiles who do not have the law, not Gentiles who have never known it.

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(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements(not some of the requirements) of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) Rom2:14&15

Its quite plainly written.
Applicable law, under the new covenant is written in the mind and placed on the heart of every believer by God Himself at conversion.
What is in your mind you in your mind must know, the law in your heart MUST bring heartfelt consciousness of sin if you '''wilfully''' transgress it for:
Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20
Hence Paul's words
It isnt an external law anymore written in ink, but one that is written on tablets of human hearts(2Cor3:3)

under grace1 said:

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements(not some of the requirements) of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) Rom2:14&15

Its quite plainly written.
Applicable law, under the new covenant is written in the mind and placed on the heart of every believer by God Himself at conversion.
What is in your mind you in your mind must know, the law in your heart MUST bring heartfelt consciousness of sin if you '''wilfully''' transgress it for:
Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20
Hence Paul's words
It isnt an external law anymore written in ink, but one that is written on tablets of human hearts(2Cor3:3)

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The command to keep the Sabbath holy written on stone has the same content as the command to keep the Sabbath holy written on our hearts and the same is try for the rest of the Torah.

Soyeong said:

The command to keep the Sabbath holy written on stone has the same content as the command to keep the Sabbath holy written on our hearts and the same is try for the rest of the Torah.

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Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20
If you ''wilfully'' let's say transgress the law in your heart you MUST have heartfelt consciousness of sin by doing so.
You do not place applicable law in your most inward parts, God does, and he does it perfectly, there are no mistakes

under grace1 said:

Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20
If you ''wilfully'' let's say transgress the law in your heart you MUST have heartfelt consciousness of sin by doing so.
You do not place applicable law in your most inward parts, God does, and he does it perfectly, there are no mistakes

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If the New Covenant involves God writing His law on our hearts, and the Sabbath is not being written on someone's heart, then what does that indicate about whether their conscience is seared or whether they are under the New Covenant?

Soyeong said:

If the New Covenant involves God writing His law on our hearts, and the Sabbath is not being written on someone's heart, then what does that indicate about whether their conscience is seared or whether they are under the New Covenant?

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Great question:
Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4
Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20
Therefore, if observing a set Saturday sabbath is written in the minds and placed on the hearts of believers, NO ONE can be in a saved state unless they have heartfelt consciousness of sin at failing to observe a set Saturday sabbath, absolutely

under grace1 said:

Great question:
Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4
Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20
Therefore, if observing a set Saturday sabbath is written in the minds and placed on the hearts of believers, NO ONE can be in a saved state unless they have heartfelt consciousness of sin at failing to observe a set Saturday sabbath, absolutely

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Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of the Law of God is intrinsically the way that he is giving us the content of his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it. If someone refuses to keep the Sabbath holy, then it would be in accurate to think that they are being saved from not keeping the Sabbath holy.

Soyeong said:

JEsus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of the Law of God is intrinsically the way that he is giving us the content of his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it. If someone refuses to keep the Sabbath holy, then it would be in accurate to think that they are being saved from not keeping the Sabbath holy.

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Please reread my post, and tell me if you agree with it