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Jerry N.
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I don’t see evidence for a flat earth. In Job, there are 11 metaphors which are mostly related to the construction of a building. In Genesis, “The Hebrew word alternatively translated “firmament” in some translations and “expanse” in others is raqiya.” The “canopy theory” of water vapor above the earth that helped produce Noah’s flood also makes some sense. What are the waters above and under the firmament (Genesis 1:7)? | GotQuestions.org Where do you see a flat earth in the verses? What verses have “verifiably accurate scientific statement(s)” from Paul?
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Thanks for your reply. I am not going to debate evolutionary cosmology because it is off topic to this thread. My intention is to debate a flat earth and the verses that relate to that belief. I just want to clear the air and set an expectation.
I refer to Hebrews 11 as the great hall of faith. The author of Hebrews (I too believe that it is Paul but is not proven), uses two literary devices in this chapter as the author challenges his readers to live lives of faith according to the pattern seen in those who by faith were faithful to God in their earthly, historical times.
The writer of Hebrews uses the phrase “by faith” (pistei) repeatedly, reiterating the phrase over and over again, driving it into the hearers’ consciences and reality that faith is the only vehicle that leads to God. Nothing else will do. Through this literary tool the author focuses attention on the centrality of a life of faith for the people of God.
The second literary device is that the author follows the form of an “example list,” a rhetorical tool used by ancient authors to challenge hearers to action. This device worked by impressing the audience with the extensive evidence that the desired course of action is indeed the best one to take. Through his list of biblical examples he provides strong support for his contention that God’s people must be people of faith.
His example list contains historical fact that we can find in the books of the old covenant. I will disagree with you that the writer of Hebrews is making any kind of scientific pronouncement but merely showing that by faith we can believe what God has done and chosen to reveal in His word. There us no evidence in these verses that God created a flat earth,
Here is where you and me are going to diverge. While God did indeed create man does not mean that the same hermeneutics of Gen. 2:7 apply to other verses using different literary devices such as poetic, musical, metaphor, simile, and symbolic writing. The Bible writers even use observational experience to write about what they visually see which relates to what they can understand. The Bible was not dictated to the writers. God inspired their writings. So the verses that describe the earth as unmovable, level, stationary, or fixed have the meaning and teaching that because God made the earth and continues to maintain the earth, God is a necessary being that engages with His creation, everything is stable because the foundation is God. These verses are not meant to be taken literally.
The confusion will never come from God but from men. But again, God did not dictate the Bible to the writers. He inspired their writings using their own words, experiences, and observations. The minor differences among the Gospels is a perfect example of witnesses of the events.
Do you understand firmament as something solid or as an expanse which are definitions of raqia? Most updated word for word translations translate raqia as expanse, a translation that I fully agree with. So the expanse is not a solid object but the curvature of the sky.
In chapter 38 God finally answers Job from the whirlwind. In these verses God is presented as a cosmic architect who built and ordered the world, a common motif in ancient Near Eastern thought. The questions that God has for Job are unanswerable and shows that Job had no place to demand answers from God. Job was not there when God laid the foundations of the earth which is part of the builders motif. Job was not there when God laid down the measurements of the earth and laid down the line which again is part of the builders motif. I am quite sure that God did not have to break out his tape measure and use chaulk string. The same about laying the cornerstone or the pillars.
All of these are true in the sense of God’s creation but He is using metaphor and similes. These verses are not meant to be taken literal and they do not have to be to show the greatness of God’s creation.
So we are going to agree that the Lord created all but we are not going to agree in the hermeunetics of the verses that you cited. A proper eisegeses is needed to arrive at the correct interpretation.
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There is no globe earth deception. The shape of the earth has been fully proven by observation and has nothing to do with evolutionary cosmology.
Staying away from evolutionary cosmology and just relying on simple observation. How do you account for the fact that the human race has explored every continent in the world, traveled by airplane and boats around the world and no one has ever seen the edge of a flat earth? It’s a simple, sincere question.
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And I have numerous simple and sincere answers for you Hentenza, based upon my own observations and those of many others, but you would reject every one of them no matter how rational and sensible they may be. Because you have placed your trust in proven liars.
Again, it's a pointless argument, non essential, and will sort its self out in the end.
And I sincerely apologize for the sun worshipper comment, it was uncalled for and inappropriate.
If we can't trust God to speak the truth to us about His own creation, insisting that He who never lies and is not the author of confusion, speaks in metaphor when we disagree with Him, and literally when we do not, how can we ever hope to come to a truthful and accurate understanding of His creation, or anything else for that matter?
Resting water is always level.
That the earth rotates at 1000mph beneath our feet has never been proven, or experienced by you or me or anyone else.
There's a treaty signed by every nation on earth that keeps the common man from exploring its outer boundaries.
Planes would have to continuously dip their noses around a globe to keep from flying into space if earth were a sphere. They do not, but instead maintain an upward angle of roughly 3 degrees to maintain lift.
There are no pictures of the earth from space in its entirety, every single one is a composite or computer generated. NASA admits as much. An examination of official NASA images of the earth always show a perfectly spherical earth, while scientists such as Neil Tyson and others insist that the earth is an oblate spheroid. Furthermore, upon inspection of these "official" images, the continents are of various sizes depending on the image.
The photo of the earth allegedly taken from the lunar surface (of which there should be many but somehow there is only one), shows an earth roughly the same size of the moon as viewed from earth. When the earth should have actually been three times that size from their vantage point.
Long distance photography from all over the world has repeatedly revealed that city scapes, mountain ranges etc, Which should be below the earths curvature by many thousands of feet are on full display. The zoom camera popularly used to take these images has subsequently been taken out of production.
Pilots are taught to fly over a flat and stationary non roting surface. There are many documents from military and civilian training manuals available to verify this fact.
While the earth allegedly orbits the sun once every 365 days, maintaining a consistent tilt upon its axis, with the solar system allegedly simultaneously circling the outer edge of the Milky Way galaxy at breathtaking speeds, and has been doing so for millennia, also allegedly. We have accurate and verifiable records from many cultures around the earth showing the same stars above our heads circling east to west with negligible variation into antiquity.
Ask any engineer responsible for building our canals, railways etc, they will tell you that they never consider the curvature of the earth in their calculations while constructing anything, and would consider it laughable to do so.
Numerous documented emergency landings of aircraft over the years reveal direct flights from places like Tokyo to L.A. stopping at out of the way locations such as Alaska, when had they been travelling over a globe, Hawaii would have been directly in their path. These landings only make sense when using the AE map. The same map that oddly enough is used in the logos of such entities as the WHO and the Untitled Nations. None of these maps show the Antarctic continent.
Jesus was a carpenter. I myself have built a few things in my lifetime, some of which are still standing. Christ Himself would tell you, before you begin construction on anything, you need a firm and level foundation, upon that foundation everything must be level and square, no exceptions, or it just falls over in time, and often quite quickly.
Here's an idea, ask the Carpenter.
"If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God..." But of course, if you already presume to have all the facts, and have placed your trust completely in the institutions of this world, a world run almost entirely by Satan and his minions, then there probably isn't any point in doing so. You'll just get the answer you were looking for, and know no more or less than you already did.
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Level does not mean flat, as demonstrated by the power pylons running straight across Lake Pontchartrain.
Foucault's pendulum. There are several of them in different locations around the world, in the Northern and Southern Hemispheres, and each slowly rotates in a manner consistent with their Latitude on a rotating globe. On the equator they do not rotate at all, and those in the Southern Hemisphere rotate in the opposite direction to those in the Northern.
No one can feel the rotation because it is constant. We would only be able to feel changes in rotational speed. It is also incredibly slow, one rotation in 24 hours.
Completely false. Many have applied and been permitted after having proven they have the necessary support to mount such expeditions. Rescue in Antarctica is dangerous and expensive.
Completely false. They maintain constant elevation by maintaining sufficient air speed for the lift force on their wings to counter the downward force of gravity. Planes noses are always up when they are landing. According to you they should be ascending.
False. There are several single image photos of the entirety of the earth globe. The high resolution images have been made by stitching together images of small patches of the earth taken by satellites and no one has ever claimed otherwise.
The earth is slightly wider at the circmference than at the poles but the difference is insignificant and can't be determined with the naked eye. You weigh slightly less at the equator than at the poles for the same reason.
A wide angle photo from close to the earth and a narrow angle photo from much further away will both show the earth as a circle but the photo taken from close will be capturing a smaller area of the earth's surface than the distant camera. Take a photo of someone's face from close up and you won't be able to see their ears at the sides of their face. Take a zoom photo from far away and you can see their ears.
There are several photos of the earth taken by different Apollo missions. You do not take into account the lenses used for the photos. I can take photos of the moon with three different lenses and the moon will appear three different sizes.
Atmospheric refraction is a very real and very well understood phenomenon. Surveyors have to take it in to account when taking longer distance readings.
LOL, who told you that bit of nonsense. Is it because it has been superseded by an even stronger Zoom model?
For the purpose of short journeys, the earth is sufficiently close enough to flat for people to not have to concern themselves with globe calculations. I believe this is actually stated in several of the documents you reference. Pilots for international flights absolutely do take the globe into account, flying great circle routes which are shorter distances than straight lines drawn on the flat maps.
There is, however, some variation recorded which is consistent with the above, not withstanding the fact that the stars we observe within our galaxy are all rotating in the same direction around the same barycenter our own sun is. It's like sitting on a horse on the merry-go-round and looking at your wife and kids over on the other side. Their position isn't changing relative to yours, even though you are constantly moving.
Not true. While for the most part it isn't necessary to take the earth's curvature into consideration, in some cases it is necessary. The suspension towers on the Humber bridge in Northern England both stand 90° vertical but are further apart at the top than they are at the bottom due to the curvature of the earth. The same is true for the Verrazzano–Narrows Bridge in New York city. LIGO, the Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory has two 4km long arms which had to account for the earth's curvature when built so that they remained straight.
This has been debunked multiple times on these forums. Your claims are false.
Above is shown the great circle route (the shortest route on a globe) between Tokyo and L.A. Which is closer, Alaska or Hawaii?
Antarctica is a continent, it isn't a nation. There is no indigenous population that has been living there, nor have people migrated there. It doesn't belong to any nation.
Silly example. There are many things that have been constructed on the sides of hills that have stood the test of time. All that is required is sound engineering.
Or if you have placed your trust in your own flawed and limited interpretation of God's word.
That sounds like you in a nutshell
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@Luke81718 the duration of direct flights between Sydney and Los Angeles compared to Sydney and Santiago are impossible on a flat earth and only make sense on a globe. Sydney to Santiago takes slightly less time than Sydney to L.A.
The same goes for all direct flights between continents in the Southern Hemisphere. They are impossible on the flat earth but make perfect sense on the globe.
The Sun and Moon rising and setting is impossible on the flat earth. According the the flat earth model, even when the sun is at its furthest from a position on earth, the angle to the Sun (or Moon) never drops below roughly 10°. The Sun and Moon also remain exactly the same size as they cross the sky, neither increasing in size as they approach their zenith nor decreasing in size as they near the horizon. If they are 3000 miles up as claimed by the flat earth model then their apparent size should vary considerably as they cross the sky.
The 24 hour Summer Sun in Antarctic is impossible on the flat earth but makes perfect sense on a globe. The circular rotation of stars around a celestial pole at night does not match the flat earth model. The only location it would be circular is at the North pole. Everywhere else, the star paths should form an elipse. The different constellations visible in the Northern and Southern Hemispheres only makes sense on a globe, as does the rotation of the stars in opposite directions. None of which makes sense on the flat earth.
The same goes for all direct flights between continents in the Southern Hemisphere. They are impossible on the flat earth but make perfect sense on the globe.
The Sun and Moon rising and setting is impossible on the flat earth. According the the flat earth model, even when the sun is at its furthest from a position on earth, the angle to the Sun (or Moon) never drops below roughly 10°. The Sun and Moon also remain exactly the same size as they cross the sky, neither increasing in size as they approach their zenith nor decreasing in size as they near the horizon. If they are 3000 miles up as claimed by the flat earth model then their apparent size should vary considerably as they cross the sky.
The 24 hour Summer Sun in Antarctic is impossible on the flat earth but makes perfect sense on a globe. The circular rotation of stars around a celestial pole at night does not match the flat earth model. The only location it would be circular is at the North pole. Everywhere else, the star paths should form an elipse. The different constellations visible in the Northern and Southern Hemispheres only makes sense on a globe, as does the rotation of the stars in opposite directions. None of which makes sense on the flat earth.
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Its called perspective, you should look into it. Level and flat are precisely the same thing.
Foucault's Pendulum proves nothing. This has been well documented. The Michelson Morley experiment proved the Earth does not move.
Nope. You would never be granted permission to venture into Antarctica for the purpose of finding the edge. Not in a million years.
Also not true, ask any pilot. Read a flight manual.
You conveniently avoided the NASA images depicting continents of differing size depending on the image, all which were official images at the time of their release.
Any deviation at or near the poles would be clearly visible to the naked eye if in fact the earth were an oblate spheroid.
With all of the alleged missions to outer space that have photographic equipment, such as the Hubble. We would expect thousands of images of the earth, there are none.
Provide the images of which you speak, we can discuss them.
Refraction does not account for images taken of distant objects that should be thousands of feet below the curve. Nice try.
Prove it.
I could provide you with many testimonies of actual pilots who say the earth is flat. You again conveniently avoided the emergency landings which I referenced.
Thousand of years, trillions of miles travelled through space, and all of the stars above our head remain in roughly the same location. Impossible.
Horse crap. But a nice copy and paste job.
Do you ever personally verify anything? Or just find the information that supports your claims and post it here without examination?
That is not an accurate depiction of the globe, even if such a thing existed.
Nope. But somehow nations which can't keep from lobbing bombs at one another, somehow manage to never violate the Antarctic treaty. Do you ever question anything?
WOW. Show me one structure that was ever constructed on a hillside which did not have s firm and level foundation. I'll wait.
That's just insulting, maybe you should be reported.
Like I said, its a pointless argument.
Did you ask the Carpenter yet? Will you ever? Yeah, didn't think so.
I'm moving on now to more productive conversations.
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Flat and level are not the same thing. Flat means that there are no high or low spots while level means that it is perfectly horizontal, without a slope. A ramp can be perfectly flat but not leveled, for example. Perspective is a point of view and it can change with distance or height.
The Michelson Morley experiment was designed to detect the hypothetical luminiferous aether which was thought to be either partially or fully dragged by the motion of the earth. The results showed that the aether is non existent. The movement of the earth was a priori and not what the experiment was for. This experiment did not disprove the movement of the earth.
There are permanent bases following the costal areas of the continent of Antartica. There is no edge to find. This is a map of the permanent stations in Antarctica.
What @prodromos told you is exactly correct. The slight nose elevation at cruising speed merely allows for level flight while during landing the nose pitch could be as high as 6 degrees to slow the rate of descent.
This is nonsense. Here is a picture of the earth from the Orion capsule during Artemis 1 flight to the moon.
False. The Earth's spin causes a bulge around the equator, making the equatorial diameter about 27 miles wider than the polar diameter.
The NOAA GOES satellite takes full disk pictures of the earth every 30 minutes or so and many more and more frequent of areas with bad weather. There are millions of pictures of the earth from space.
No you could not simply because all instruments used for navigation are calibrated for a spherical earth.
The stars are not fixed, but are constantly moving. If you factor out the daily arcing motion of the stars across the sky due to the earth's rotation, you end up with a pattern of stars that seems to never change. But in reality, the stars are constantly moving. They are just so far away that the naked eye cannot detect their movement. But sensitive instruments can detect their movement.
The horse crap is yours. All you had to do was verify the distances between the towers by looking it up. I did and the distance at the top of the towers of the Verrazano-Narrows bridge is 1 5/8 inch wider than at the base. This was done intentionally to account for the curvature of the earth.
It is.
Yep. The permanent bases that I showed you above belong to different nations. You have nothing to prove your assertion.
You won’t have to wait long but you did move the goal posts when you added the “firm and level foundation” because every structure has a foundation. It called the floor lol.
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You know what. I just realized that I'm arguing with someone who is gullible enough to actually believe that NASA put a man on the moon.
I'll have a little chuckle at your expense and move on if that's OK with you.
There's no fool like an old fool, or so its said.
You keep clinging to your delusions and I will get back to doing more productive things.
Peace Neighbor
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I’m an engineer who for a bit worked for Boeing on components for the shuttle. My father in law was an engineer that worked on the Mercury and Apollo programs. He was part of the team that designed the legs of the lunar lander. I know for a fact that NASA sent seven successful missions that landed on the moon. Your conspiracy theory nonsense is an insult for all that worked so hard making the space program successful and you belittle the courage of the astronauts that selflessly put their lives in danger for the benefit of mankind.
That sentiment only applies to you.
And, btw, we are just a few short weeks away from sending another crewed mission to the moon. This one won’t land but will circle the moon and return to earth. Hopefully you will wake up and realize that your cultish belief is just nonsense.
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The most characteristic features of linear perspective are that objects appear smaller as their distance from the observer increases, and that they are subject to foreshortening, meaning that an object's dimensions parallel to the line of sight appear shorter than its dimensions perpendicular to the line of sight. All objects will recede to points in the distance, usually along the horizon line, but also above and below the horizon line depending on the view used.
Perspective (graphical) - WikipediaPerspective does not cause parallel lines to curve down over the horizon, so no, it isn't perspective.
Flat means straight in all directions.
Level means equidistant from sea level, which is a curved surface on a globe. This is how level is defined in manuals for surveyors.
Actually it does, but people with closed minds can't accept anything contrary to what they've already decided is 'the truth (TM)'
Then I'm sure you can link said documents.
A falsehood oft repeated by flat earthers who have no understanding of what the goals of the experiment were.
There is no edge. Anyone attempting to launch such an expedition would be immediately disqualified on account of being mentally unfit.
I've read through a couple. Nothing in them makes any reference to the earth being flat, and references to level flight is about maintaining a fixed altitude, which would be the same regardless of whether the earth were flat or a globe. As altitude increases, air density decreases which reduces the amount of lift the planes wings can generate at the same airspeed, which is part of what determines the "ceiling" of an aircraft, the maximum altitude it can fly at. The other is oxygen for fuel combustion, as the air gets thinner there is less oxygen and the engine loses power and is unable to maintain a high airspeed.
Thus what you claimed about pilots needing to constantly "dip" the nose of the plane to maintain a constant altitude is complete nonsense.
No I didn't, but since you missed it I will make it crystal clear for you. The three photos of the same globe are taken from different distances with lenses of different focal length. The globe appears the same size in each but the continent of North America is different in each one
In case you still don't get it, here is another with the "Blue Marble" images.
It's a difference of 0.37%. There is absolutely no way that is discernible to the naked eye.
Hubble wasn't made for looking at the earth, which would probably be way too bright for its sensitive optics. The DSCOVR satellite however has been taking multiple images daily since its launch in 2015, so yes, there are thousands of images.
Apollo 4 70mm film reel.
Apollo 8 70mm film reel.
Apollo 10 70mm film reel.
All of them. Knock yourself out.
Examples?
Nice fail on your part.
Go ahead then. Lets see them.
Not true. I've debunked a bunch of them in this thread from post #651 onwards. The people making these claims never plot the great circle routes and are simply making a strawman argument.
Ah, the old argument from incredulity.
Your arguments are. Yes.
Where do you think I copy pasted from? I assure you I didn't. That was all typed out on the little keypad on my smartphone.
I always check sources and do research. I've been looking at this subject for decades now.
It is and it does.
Which nations would they be? None of the countries with research bases in Antarctica are lobbing bombs at each other.
I question your intelligence.
Obviously hit a nerve there. That's progress.
He tells me to treat you as though you are a Gentile or tax collector.
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Jerry N.
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The threads on flat earth have been bothering me, so I asked AI about the motivations. The answer is as follows:
## Motivation for Believing in a Flat Earth
Belief in a flat Earth can stem from various psychological, social, and informational factors. Here's a breakdown of some core motivations behind this belief.
| **Motivation** | **Description** |
|---------------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| **Distrust in Authority** | Many flat Earth believers have a general skepticism towards governments, scientists, and established institutions. This distrust leads them to question widely accepted scientific facts. |
| **Community and Belonging** | The flat Earth movement fosters close-knit communities where members find support and camaraderie. This social aspect can reinforce their beliefs and identity. |
| **Cognitive Dissonance** | Some individuals may struggle with the complex nature of scientific explanations. Embracing a simpler model like the flat Earth can reduce anxiety and confusion. |
| **Confirmation Bias** | People tend to seek out information that supports their preconceived notions. Believers often focus on sources that validate their flat Earth views while dismissing contradictory evidence. |
| **Contrarian Identity** | Holding a controversial belief can be a way to feel unique or superior in understanding "hidden truths" that others are oblivious to, appealing to a need for individuality. |
| **Religious and Cultural Factors** | Certain interpretations of religious texts can support flat Earth beliefs, creating an intersection between faith and worldview. |
---
These motivations reflect a combination of psychological need, social dynamics, and cognitive processes. Understanding these factors helps explain the persistence of flat Earth beliefs despite overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary.
## Motivation for Believing in a Flat Earth
Belief in a flat Earth can stem from various psychological, social, and informational factors. Here's a breakdown of some core motivations behind this belief.
| **Motivation** | **Description** |
|---------------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| **Distrust in Authority** | Many flat Earth believers have a general skepticism towards governments, scientists, and established institutions. This distrust leads them to question widely accepted scientific facts. |
| **Community and Belonging** | The flat Earth movement fosters close-knit communities where members find support and camaraderie. This social aspect can reinforce their beliefs and identity. |
| **Cognitive Dissonance** | Some individuals may struggle with the complex nature of scientific explanations. Embracing a simpler model like the flat Earth can reduce anxiety and confusion. |
| **Confirmation Bias** | People tend to seek out information that supports their preconceived notions. Believers often focus on sources that validate their flat Earth views while dismissing contradictory evidence. |
| **Contrarian Identity** | Holding a controversial belief can be a way to feel unique or superior in understanding "hidden truths" that others are oblivious to, appealing to a need for individuality. |
| **Religious and Cultural Factors** | Certain interpretations of religious texts can support flat Earth beliefs, creating an intersection between faith and worldview. |
---
These motivations reflect a combination of psychological need, social dynamics, and cognitive processes. Understanding these factors helps explain the persistence of flat Earth beliefs despite overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary.
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