Christianity, the Sabbath, Ten Comm, from Eden onward

BobRyan · Jan 16, 2026

Ex 20:
8 “Remember THE Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed THE Sabbath day and made it holy. (Sanctified it)

Gen 2:2-3
2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

God's Law, God's Commandments
1. First and foremost refers to the TEN COMMANDMENTS Deut 4:12-13
2. A spoke the Ten "And added no more' Deut 5:22. (only the TEN inside the Ark)

So then: The moral law first and foremost includes the TEN, (whatever else it would include)

1 Cor 6 Paul condemns breaking the TEN
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

where the first commandment with a promise is "honor your father and mother" Eph 6:1-2

Bible-aware Mankind Chooses one of the following as response:
1. Accept God's commandments, affirm and obey (see Rom 8:4-9)
2. Edit God's Commandments via tradition Mark 7:7-13
3. Downsize God's Commandments and ignore James 2
4. Declare God's commandments to be deleted/ended, fully ignoring James 2:4-13 regarding God's Royal LAW

The Bible says:
Gen 2:1-3 the Sabbath made holy, set apart for holy use, dedicated to God
Ex 20:11 the Sabbath began in Eden, when God sanctified it and made it holy, points to Gen 2.
Mark 2:27 the Sabbath made for mankind, not mankind made for the Sabbath
speaks to the making of both, Gen 1-2

7 days of creation week where the only thing made on the 7th day is the Ex 20:11 Sabbath

The majority of Christianity admits to this Bible truth

Baptist Confession of faith section 19 the TEN start in Eden (not a downsized nine)
D.L. Moody sermon on the TEN -- the Sabbath begins in Eden
Westminster confession of faith section 19 all TEN begin in Eden
C.H. Spurgeon all TEN from Eden
R.C. Sproul Sabbath commandment still valid (though speculated to have been edited in the NT without saying it)
Catholic Catechism Sabbath still valid (even those who speculate that it was edited to point to Sunday after the cross)

Gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath blessing Is 56:27
Acts 13 gentiles in synagogue on Sabbath, wait for Jews to leave after hearing the gospel, then ask Paul to schedule more Gospel preaching the "Next Sabbath"
(instead of "tomorrow)

Sabbath kept by all mankind for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth Isaiah 66:23

Jesus condemns editing/downsizing even one of them via man-made tradition Mark 7:7-13
James says to break one , is to break them all James 2;0-13

BobRyan · Jan 16, 2026

Some antiSabbath views argue that Sabbath is not fully quoted in the Pentateuch after its reference in Gen 2:2-3 until the book of Exodus
Others note that this is even more the case with "do not take God's name in vain" until Ex 20.

Others note that "thought sins" such as "do not covet" are not "guessed at" by most people who have no Bible.
Paul says in Rom 7 that we would not know about "Do not covet" if we had not read it from scripture.
hint: this is not a sign that the command "do not covet" was just for Jews. Rom 7:7

In fact most nonBible-aware people groups also do not seem to know about the command against making graven images for worship

None of that deletes any one of the TEN, still people do love to discuss it

Matt 5 - Jesus said not to downsize God's commandments
James 2 says he who is guilty of one... has a problem.

=====================================
And then of course there is claims to have edited/changed one of God's commandments.

Baptist Confession of Faith. Section 22

paragraph 7> As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.

Compare that to claims that "Not one was edited". They just re pointed the Sabbath commandment to the first day of the week. In their own words "it was changed to the first day"And for those who actually read the text ...

notice;

"From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day (7th day) of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day

=========================

still , many of us strongly argue the case that not all people who have no Bible, and yet bow down to images, etc are lost. God considers what a person knows to do right, before charging them with any sort of violation. James 4:17

BobRyan · Jan 17, 2026

The antiSabbath argument will be seen on this area of the board , posting as if what you find in the first two posts above... did not exist.

In fact almost all Christian denominations argue that all TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in the moral law of God

A sample of Christian denominations ( and Christian leaders) that affirms the continued *"unit of TEN" for Christians today

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
[*]R.C. Sproul

For Example
Westminster Confession of faith section 19

19.1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

19.2. This law, after his Fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty toward God, and the other six our duty to man.

19.3. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a Church under age, ceremonial laws

19.5. The moral law forever binds all, as well justified persons as others, to obedience to it; and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator who gave it. Neither does Christ in the gospel in any way dissolve, but much strengthen, this obligation.

19.7. Neither are the aforementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it:

===========================

the same can be shown for the Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
and for D.L. Moody's sermon on the TEN Commandments

Mark 7:7-13 is a case where Christ flatly condemns ignoring God's commandment and preferring traditions of man instead.

The "argument" that the 7th day Sabbath keepers of today have, with the group I list and keep reminding people of in this discussion, is not about Sabbath starting Eden , rather it is about the Mark 7 statement of Christ and whether or not a man made tradition can edit one of the Commandments

under grace1 · Jan 20, 2026

BobRyan said:
Others note that "thought sins" such as "do not covet" are not "guessed at" by most people who have no Bible.
Paul says in Rom 7 that we would not know about "Do not covet" if we had not read it from scripture.
hint: this is not a sign that the command "do not covet" was just for Jews. Rom 7:7

None of that deletes any one of the TEN, still people do love to discuss it

Matt 5 - Jesus said not to downsize God's commandments

James 2 says he who is guilty of one... has a problem.

Under the old covenant you would not have known law unless you read it, but what does Paul say about the new covenant?
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements(not some of the requirements) of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them. Rom2:14&15
According to Paul if you have never known of biblical law you can show the requirements of the law are written in your heart, obviously by the way you act.
As you mentioned the tenth commandment, it might be a good idea to look at it in detail, for as you say it regards our thoughts, what goes on, on the inside of man
You must not dwell on any impure thought
You must not lust/have sexual desire unless it is for your spouse
You must not desire anything of your neighbours, whether material goods or a member of their household
You must fully obey the law relating to the inner man, the law no one but you and God need know you break
As you said, we must not downsize the commandments
And, He who is guilty of one has a problem, they are guilty of all
I wonder, in the circumstances, how many have problems?

DamianWarS · Jan 20, 2026

BobRyan said:
7 days of creation week where the only thing made on the 7th day is the Ex 20:11 Sabbath

the 4th commandment is legal code for keeping the sabbath inside of a covenant framework. we cannot remove the legal code, and superimpose it outside of it's covenant agreement like some sort of mic drop. on the 7th day God made the day holy, but he does not make legal code on how we are to keep it holy found in covenant boundries.

BobRyan said:
Baptist Confession of faith section 19 the TEN start in Eden (not a downsized nine)
D.L. Moody sermon on the TEN -- the Sabbath begins in Eden
Westminster confession of faith section 19 all TEN begin in Eden
C.H. Spurgeon all TEN from Eden
R.C. Sproul Sabbath commandment still valid (though speculated to have been edited in the NT without saying it)
Catholic Catechism Sabbath still valid (even those who speculate that it was edited to point to Sunday after the cross)

all those sources are under a Sunday "8th day" keeping framework, not a covenant sabbath 7th day, whic,h from what I understan,d you vehemently disagree with and claim is breaking the sabbath. But if you accept sources that point to 4th commandment keeping on a Sunday as permissible, then why not accept everyday keeping as permissible too? What exactly are we keeping? We are keeping the one who completed the work and ushers in a rest we can partake of like no other. The way there was a ceasing of a work on the 7th day of creation is through a completed work. if the work however, is not complete, then it can only be rested superfically but not fully. Jesus completed the work, he said it himself on the cross "It is finished" and thorugh him we may enter a sabbath rest not superfically but in fullness.

BobRyan said:
Gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath blessing Is 56:27
Acts 13 gentiles in synagogue on Sabbath, wait for Jews to leave after hearing the gospel, then ask Paul to schedule more Gospel preaching the "Next Sabbath"
(instead of "tomorrow)

there is no sabbath instruction on this day, instead, using the sabbath day as a natural gathering point for preaching. Gathering on the sabbath and preaching are not 4th commandment requirement (or mentions), they may still be consistent but don't they themselves are not the goals. To keep the day only, we and all those under our care cease work. gathing together and listening to preaching can be a parallel focus but is not unique to the sabbat itself. Like the Baptist Confession of faith, D.L. Moody sermon on the TEN, Westminster confession of faith, and C.H. Spurgeon all value is a share experince on Sunday. You could say this passage in Acts shows a trasition of values from legal-code to a community value of faith.

BobRyan said:
Sabbath kept by all mankind for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth Isaiah 66:23

In Mat 5:17 Christ says "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfil." does this not apply to the 4th commandment as well? Should we not expect the legal code of the torah to be all fulfilled by Christ? I've heard it said that all is not accomplished, so the Sabbath law still holds. But that's not what you're saying, is it? Instead you present a different idea, of a persistent unversal legal-code that will never be fulfilled contrary to Christ's words. And who decided what is persistent and what is not? this is the consistency problem within your argument. Oh it's the "Moral Law" which is an unsubstiated post-biblical term used to force theological concepts. Oh it was written on tablets and placed in the ark so it's impictly special which gives permission to treat them in a way the bible never does. Which tablets are those? might they be the two"tables of the covenant law"? Which ark is it? might it be the "Ark of the Covenant"? Unlike "Moral Law" these are biblical, and they mark covenant boundaries, not universal legal code. The 7th concept persists, but legal code bound in the old covenant does not.

BobRyan · Jan 21, 2026

under grace1 said:
Under the old covenant you would not have known law unless you read it,

Here is Paul writing in Rom 7 long AFTER the time of Christ

Rom 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Paul says that even in his lost condition (old covenant) he would not know of sin unless the Law had outlined it for him

1 John 3:4 "SIN IS transgression of the Law"

Where "the first commandment with a promise" is still to this very day "honor your father and mother" Eph 6:1-2 according to Paul in the NT

under grace1 said:
but what does Paul say about the new covenant?

Paul says that it is Old Testament in Heb 8.
Paul says it is Christ Himself speaking at Sinai in Heb 8

under grace1 said:
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements(not some of the requirements) of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them. Rom2:14&15

indeed and in that same Chapter Paul says that it done by the Holy Spirit even for those with no Bible at all, IF they have chosen to follow and submit to the Holy Spirit. (in the case of those who DO instinctively (by the H.S.) the things of the Law , showing that it is written on the heart.

Rom 2:
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

under grace1 said:
According to Paul if you have never known of biblical law you can show the requirements of the law are written in your heart, obviously by the way you act.

Amen.

But someone with no Bible at all will not know about "Do not covet" and "remember the Sabbath day"

under grace1 said:
And, He who is guilty of one has a problem, they are guilty of all

Indeed James 2 does argue that point as does Rom 3:19-20, all have sinned and all need the gospel. Even so the Holy Spirit "convicts the entire world of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 6, bringing all to Christ for salvation

But neither of those texts say that someone with no Bible at all will know about "do not covet" as Paul points out in Romans 7

under grace1 said:
I wonder, in the circumstances, how many have problems?

all have sinned, all need the gospel. And Rom 2:14-16 says some have that gospel salvation, new covenant even without having access to the Bible

BobRyan · Jan 21, 2026

DamianWarS said:
the 4th commandment is legal code for keeping the sabbath

Indeed.

Here is Paul writing in Rom 7 long AFTER the time of Christ

Rom 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Paul says that even in his lost condition (old covenant) he would not know of sin unless the Law had outlined it for him

1 John 3:4 "SIN IS transgression of the Law"

Where "the first commandment with a promise" is still to this very day "honor your father and mother" Eph 6:1-2 according to Paul in the NT

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the commandments of God"
Rev 14:12 "the saints keep the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

Rom 3:31 "do we make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we establish the law"

The NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 and Heb 8 "writes the LAW on the heart"

DamianWarS said:
all those sources are under a Sunday "8th day" keeping framework

no such phrase in all of scripture.

Are you relying on creative writing for your source?

BobRyan · Jan 21, 2026

Gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath blessing Is 56:27
Acts 13 gentiles in synagogue on Sabbath, wait for Jews to leave after hearing the gospel, then ask Paul to schedule more Gospel preaching the "Next Sabbath" (instead of "tomorrow)

DamianWarS said:
there is no sabbath instruction on this day, instead, using the sabbath day as a natural gathering point for preaching. Gathering on the sabbath and preaching are not 4th commandment requirement

Lev 23 Sabbath is "a day for holy convocation"

do much so that even gentiles in Acts 13 after hearing the gospel on Sabbath, ask for "more" gospel preaching to be scheduled for them on the "next Sabbath", not "tomorrow"

DamianWarS said:
To keep the day only, we and all those under our care cease work.

yep that is what God says about the seventh day, the Sabbath.
No doubt

DamianWarS said:
gathing together and listening to preaching can be a parallel focus but is not unique to the sabbat itself.

we can worship God 7 days a week but that is not a sanctified day set apart and allowing no secular work else no one would have a job.

only one day a week has that feature according to God

DamianWarS said:
Like the Baptist Confession of faith, D.L. Moody sermon on the TEN, Westminster confession of faith, and C.H. Spurgeon all value is a share experince on Sunday.

all say the Sabbath begins for all mankind in Eden.
all argue that the Sabbath commandment was edited by man made tradition some time after the cross.

I agree with both statements I just don't think there is Bible support for doing the second.

DamianWarS said:
In Mat 5:17 Christ says "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfil."

and "fulfill" does not mean "delete"

As Jesus shows in triplicate in Matt 5.

Jesus' does not point to a single example of "delete" or "end" in Matt 5 so then no animal sacrifice laws are mentioned by Jesus in Matt 5

He does not say that "do not murder" is ended rather he says that its meaning has always been broad and deep.
NOR does He say "someday the law against Murder will also include not hating"

DamianWarS said:
does this not apply to the 4th commandment as well? Should we not expect the legal code of the torah to be all fulfilled by Christ?

To fulfills moral law, such as Love your neighbor as yourself, is to perfectly comply with it.

Moral law does not get deleted as soon as someone complies.

obviously

under grace1 · Jan 21, 2026

BobRyan said:
But someone with no Bible at all will not know about "Do not covet" and "remember the Sabbath day"

But neither of those texts say that someone with no Bible at all will know about "do not covet" as Paul points out in Romans 7

You are incorrect. In Rom7:7&8 Paul is speaking of his life as a Pharisee/old covenant, when the law came to him. The law came to Saul the pharisee!
Remember Paul's words in Rom2:14&15. If you have never known of biblical law you can show the requirements(not some of the requirements) of the law are written on your heart, obviously by the way you act.
When I reached puberty as a young teenager, I would hear people say: 'You must obey the TC' and every time I heard that my thoughts turned inward to my impure thoughts and I felt huge guilt. Yet at that time, I may as well not have known the command not covet in the bible, for I did not know through reading the letter of that command impure thoughts transgressed it.
So I understood, without the need for a bible concerning coveting, and that is in line with Paul's words
BTW, glad you pointed out no one would know of the fourth commandment as written without a bible!!

BobRyan · Jan 21, 2026

under grace1 said:
You are incorrect. In Rom7:7&8 Paul is speaking of his life as a Pharisee/old covenant, when the law came to him.

He was an old covenant , Christianity rejecting Pharisee even after Christ went to heaven.
The Law was used to wake him up, make him aware of his need. That is its function toward the lost in the OT and also the NT

under grace1 said:
The law came to Saul the pharisee!

Indeed. The Law of God convicts the Lost via the Holy Spirit "convicting the world of sin and righteousness and judgment"

But for the saved it is "Written on the heart" under the Jer 31:31-34 New Cov according to Paul in Heb 8.

It functions in both contexts one for the lost, and one for the saved

under grace1 said:
Remember Paul's words in Rom2:14&15. If you have never known of biblical law you can show the requirements(not some of the requirements) of the law are written on your heart

True in every age. Paul says the Law written on the heart is the function of the New Covenant in Heb 8 just as we see it in Jer 31:31-34

under grace1 · Jan 21, 2026

BobRyan said:
He was an old covenant , Christianity rejecting Pharisee even after Christ went to heaven

Indeed. The Law of God convicts the Lost via the Holy Spirit "convicting the world of sin and righteousness and judgment"

and is also "Written on the heart" under the Jer 31:31-34 New Cov according to Paul in Heb 8.

It functions in both contexts.

True in every age. Paul says the Law written on the heart is the function of the New Covenant in Heb 8 just as we see it in Jer 31:31-34

Can I ask you something, only no one has thus far replied to it. When people state you must obey the TC, why do they never add to that they themselves transgress them?

BobRyan · Jan 21, 2026

BobRyan said:

Baptist Confession of faith section 19 the TEN start in Eden (not a downsized nine)
D.L. Moody sermon on the TEN -- the Sabbath begins in Eden
Westminster confession of faith section 19 all TEN begin in Eden
C.H. Spurgeon all TEN from Eden
R.C. Sproul Sabbath commandment still valid (though speculated to have been edited in the NT without saying it)
Catholic Catechism Sabbath still valid (even those who speculate that it was edited to point to Sunday after the cross)

DamianWarS said:
all those sources are under a Sunday "8th day" keeping framework, not a covenant sabbath 7th day, whic,h from what I understan,d you vehemently disagree

they argue for an edited Sabbath commandment that now points to week day 1. So it continues to be fully in force in their POV.

Your argument above is the same one that says that if we do not agree with the Catholic church on purgatory then we cannot agree with them that the trinity is "one God in three persons", which you and I would both say is a failed argument

BobRyan · Jan 21, 2026

under grace1 said:
Can I ask you something, only no one has thus far replied to it. When people state you must obey the TC, why do they never add to that they themselves transgress them?

They never say "go ahead and take God's name in vain because I am not perfectly sinless"

Neither would you or I say that to someone.

I think you and I would both agree on that point

under grace1 · Jan 21, 2026

BobRyan said:
They never say "go ahead and take God's name in vain because I am not perfectly sinless"

I think you and I would both agree on that point

Well I would think, if we want to obey the second greatest commandment it would be advisable to tell people, alongside what they must do that the person stating that much fails to obey the TC. It might be said to someone who is fully conscious of what obeying those commands entails. They may assume the person telling them they must obey the TC is fully obeying them themselves, then they get crushed and broken, believing they cannot live up to the life a christian should live and they assume others are living. They then walk away from the faith. I would say, the second greatest commandment is being ignored
BTW
Goes much further than not taking the Lord's name in vain, but Im sure you know that:
So, you must never put anything before God in your life
You must never erect any graven image in your mind
You must never tell any even little fibs about another
You must not dwell on any impure thought
You must not have lust/sexual desire for anyone apart from your spouse
You must not desire/covet anything of your neighbours, whether material goods or a member of their household.
You must obey the law regarding the inner man, the law no one but you and God need know you break’/thoughts, desires.

BobRyan · Jan 21, 2026

under grace1 said:
Well I would think, if we want to obey the second greatest commandment it would be advisable to tell people, alongside what they must do that the person stating that much fails to obey the TC.

No one in OT or NT says "I am sinless so then obey what God says", other than Christ who says "which one of you can find any sin in me",
Neither do they say "do not take God's name in vain because I am a sinner". Nor "do not take God's name in vain because I am sinless"
All have sinned as Romans 3 states.

If our argument becomes "ignore all the commands God gives since I am not perfect" we have failed to grasp a certain level of reality.

If our argument is "you must sin, God's grace is not at all sufficient for your temptations" we are living in denial of 1 Cor 10.

1 Cor 10:
13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.

Paul does not say "so then go ahead with idolatry since you actually have no hope at all of victory over rebellion against God"

in Rom 8 Paul says that only the unsaved person is in a position where they "do not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN They submit"

Rom 8:
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 6:
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

1 John 2:
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Rev 14:12 saints "Keep the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus"

Rom 3:31 "do we abolish the Law by our faith? God forbid! in fact we establish the Law"

Heb 8 says Christ is the one speaking the Law at Sinai
It also says the Law is written on the heart under the New Covenant

Same context, same chapter.

Matt 5 Jesus condemns the teaching that Christ has done away with even the least of the commands in the moral law of God. (This is true even in the preCross age, not just the New Testament age)

under grace1 · Jan 21, 2026

BobRyan said:
If our argument becomes "ignore all the commands God gives since I am not perfect" we have failed to grasp a certain level of reality.

If our argument is "you must sin, God's grace is not at all sufficient for your temptations" we are living in denial of 1 Cor 10.

1 Cor 10:
13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.

Paul does not say "so then go ahead with idolatry since you actually have no hope at all of victory over rebellion against God"

in Rom 8 Paul says that only the unsaved person is in a position where they "do not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN They submit"

Rom 8:
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 6:
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

1 John 2:
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Rev 14:12 saints "Keep the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus"

Rom 3:31 "do we abolish the Law by our faith? God forbid! in fact we establish the Law"

Heb 8 says Christ is the one speaking the Law at Sinai
It also says the Law is written on the heart under the New Covenant

Same context, same chapter.

Matt 5 Jesus condemns the teaching that Christ has done away with even the least of the commands in the moral law of God. (This is true even in the preCross age, not just the New Testament age)

I see you didnt respond to what I wrote, so I will reciprocate

BobRyan · Jan 21, 2026

under grace1 said:
I see you didnt respond to what I wrote, so I will reciprocate

updated, so you can respond to the Bible texts in the post.

under grace1 · Jan 21, 2026

BobRyan said:
updated, so you can respond to the Bible texts in the post.

OK, lets take this one

'''The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;''''

As you transgress the TC, does the above apply to you? Or are you a special case?

BobRyan · Jan 21, 2026

under grace1 said:
OK, lets take this one

'''The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;''''

yep. That is the Word of God.

Is your point that God should not have written it?

under grace1 said:
As you transgress the TC, does the above apply to you? Or are you a special case?

Again you post as if the debate is over whether God should have said what He said.

That is an odd position to take.

You are quoting 1 John 2:4 (not me. I did not author the text you are quoting) I assume you admit it.

Have you read 1 John 2:1 'These things I write that you sin NOT".. Do you agree that God is allowed to say that to us?

Are you familiar with Righteousness by faith?

When you read Rom 8 how did God say (in that text that I posted ) how is obedience even possible?

How is it that there is even one sin that you do not commit? Is it just that you ran out of time to commit it, or is it possible that the infinitely powerful Holy Spirit enables you to overcome sin just as 1 Cor 10 said?

The one who surrenders fully to Christ as Christ as Savior. Not only does Christ pardon sin, but He gives victory over sin and when someone is in Christ they bring Christ with them as they stand before God. And then God sees the righteousness of Christ not the righteousness of man. But if that man embraces rebellion against God no matter the Holy Spirit directing man to go the opposite direction, than that man stands alone.

The question is not "can you say I am sinless" (a statement no bible writer makes), the question is can you say "I have been crucified with Christ therefore I no longer live but Christ LIVES IN me". Gal 2:20.

Christ Himself says in John 14 "it is not I who speak but the Father in me speaks and acts"

10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. 12 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

19 After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. 20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him

In Matt 5 Christ flatly condemns the idea of downsizing/dismissing God's commandments. That is the path of rebellion according to Christ's teaching in Matt 5.

Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;

under grace1 · Jan 22, 2026

BobRyan said:
yep. That is the Word of God.

Is your point that God should not have written it?

Again you post as if the debate is over whether God should have said what He said.

That is an odd position to take.

You are quoting 1 John 2:4 (not me. I did not author the text you are quoting) I assume you admit it.

Have you read 1 John 2:1 'These things I write that you sin NOT".. Do you agree that God is allowed to say that to us?

Are you familiar with Righteousness by faith?

When you read Rom 8 how did God say (in that text that I posted ) how is obedience even possible?

How is it that there is even one sin that you do not commit? Is it just that you ran out of time to commit it, or is it possible that the infinitely powerful Holy Spirit enables you to overcome sin just as 1 Cor 10 said?

The one who surrenders fully to Christ as Christ as Savior. Not only does Christ pardon sin, but He gives victory over sin and when someone is in Christ they bring Christ with them as they stand before God. And then God sees the righteousness of Christ not the righteousness of man. But if that man embraces rebellion against God no matter the Holy Spirit directing man to go the opposite direction, than that man stands alone.

The question is not "can you say I am sinless" (a statement no bible writer makes), the question is can you say "I have been crucified with Christ therefore I no longer live but Christ LIVES IN me". Gal 2:20.

Christ Himself says in John 14 "it is not I who speak but the Father in me speaks and acts"

10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. 12 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

19 After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. 20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him

In Matt 5 Christ flatly condemns the idea of downsizing/dismissing God's commandments. That is the path of rebellion according to Christ's teaching in Matt 5.

Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;

I see you had to deflect form the point made, I expected as much

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