Read it again, you were not insulted.
I called out your low opinion of scripture. If it struck a nerve, good for you, that's progress.
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I called out your low opinion of scripture. If it struck a nerve, good for you, that's progress.
The Psalms are poetry, and should be taken as such. They are no less Gods word than any other portion of scripture. Which is clear when you consider that in the Psalms of David we also find many prophetic utterances.
We are not discussing the Psalms, but the creation narrative spelled out in the 1st chapter of Genesis.
If you notice, I have not used the word "literal" even once in my comments, and for good reason. Not all scripture should be taken literally. Such as the parables of Jesus, but that does not mean that they are any less inspired. But when direct statements are made, they should be taken at face value.
When Christ said that it would be better to pluck out your eye or cut off your hand than to enter into hell, most would say He really didn't mean it. But when you carefully examine the text, He absolutely did. He came from Heaven, He created hell. While He clearly didn't want anyone to fall so far into sin that such actions were necessary, His statement was completely factual. "It would be better..."
When Moses narrates for us the creation account, with specific references to specific events taking place on specific days, he is not speaking poetically or metaphorically, he is providing an inspired narrative. There is absolutely nothing in the text that would suggest otherwise.
A person makes up their minds because of information gathered from sources outside of scripture that creation happened in this or that manner, producing whatever result they have come to agree with. This has now become their established paradigm. Now when they approach the scriptures, it is no longer to gain understanding, but to find agreement. When that agreement can not be found, the scriptures must be explained away to fit those preconceived ideas that they brought with them to the text.
Scripture should inform our view of reality, not the other way around. The only reason to reject the Genesis account of creation as metaphorical or symbolic would be because the narrative doesn't fit our own. But however you look at the Genesis account, whether you agree or disagree, it doesn't change the fact that the Genesis account was intended to be, and exists as, a narrative.
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Jerry N.
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You write off the Psalm because David’s intent was not to describe what happened literally. The Psalm was written for the purpose of praising God through song written by a mortal man inspired by God for an audience that understood David was not being literal. What was the purpose of Genesis 1, who wrote it, how was it inspired, and who was the intended audience? These are questions that flat earth people don’t ask when they claim the Bible supports flat earth. If you want a discussion on Genesis 1, there are several threads on this forum. However, I have not seen a Scripture reference that supports flat earth or global earth that doesn’t ignore the perspective of the writer, the purpose of the passage, or the intended audience and their culture.
By the way, when the devil took Jesus to a high place and showed Him the kingdoms of the earth, could Jesus see China? If you say it was a miracle, then why go anywhere? If it was not a miracle, what mountain was it? I have no doubt the event took place, but the details are not there. That is because it wasn’t the intent of the description.
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- Nov 28, 2003
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Since I know he holds God word in high esteem, I'll take that as a compliment.
As I've already noted, that is completely off topic. If you want to start a thread on the 'divinity' of God's word then do so in the appropriate forum.
You seem to have faith in your ability to correctly interpret God's word.
Why do you feel the need to insult people who do not agree with you. Is that the fruit of the Holy Spirit or is it the fruit of another spirit?
Some are, certainly, but by no means all. There are many God fearing men and women working in all fields of the study of God's creation.
I'm willing to bet they are all based on false premises. We still haven't had anyone explain how the sun rises and sets on a flat earth that doesn't contradict what is actually observed or the very mechanism they claim is at work.
Absolutely. Can our interpretation of the same be trusted? If we are not pure vessels of the Holy Spirit, how can we be certain that our understanding is of the Holy Spirit and not of our flesh?
I'm not aware of any books that precede Genesis in the Scriptures. Earth is referred to at the very beginning of the creation narrative.
Yes
The first day
The fourth day
The firmament.
So what is the purpose of the creation narrative? Is it to give a detailed breakdown of the physics and biology of creation? Of course not. It is to establish who God is, the Lord and Master of all creation, and our relationship with Him, made as we are in the image and likeness of our creator, the pinnacle of His creation.
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You do you neighbor. I have no more time to waste on anyone who has their mind already made up, and especially those who cannot trust the word of God to tell them the truth about the nature of reality. Heck, you can't even trust your own senses.
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Write off the Psalms? Seriously?
You and Propagando can get back to your echo chamber. I'll spend my time more wisely from now on.
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Why then did you even darken this thread with your presence? You are not willing to have your views challenged and yet you have the hypocrisy to claim it is we who have our minds made up! The only one seeking an echo chamber here is you.
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- Nov 28, 2003
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I haven't even had the opportunity to ask you how sunsets work on your flat earth, or how you reconcile the direct flights between continents in the Southern Hemisphere.
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- Nov 28, 2003
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I wonder if someone has been inviting people from a flat earth forum to come and join CF. This is the second encounter we've had with a new member who had absolutely no patience for those who don't accept their beliefs. This is the first one I've seen who claims divinity for the Scriptures however. They do all seem to have some extreme errors in their beliefs but this one left me astounded.
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That's a great question.
There are none that I am aware of that specifically describe the infinite plane upon which we live.
But there are a great number of scriptures that describe the earth as having foundations, immoveable, fixed, beneath a structure defined as hard and glassy with windows, that tell us the luminaries are within that structure, that tell us the sun and moon circle around the earth, and not the other way around.
And there are passages of scripture, which when taken at face value, directly refute evolutionary cosmology.
I would be happy to provide a rather lengthy listing of these scriptures if you are unable or unwilling to find them for yourself.
Can you provide the scriptures for me, which support your assertion that the earth is a sphere?
I understand full well that science has provided a wealth of evidence to support their heliocentric claims. I am not an uneducated man. Neither am I gullible or naive, or blown about on the winds of conspiracy, anymore than I am the winds of any new doctrine. Evidence however, is not proof.
What I am, is a man who trusts God and His Word above all things. And after that, my own observations. In what else should I trust? What else is there? Science? Academia? Government? Finance? Politics and Politicians? Doctors and Lawyers? My own wisdom or strength?
I don't mean to be unkind, and absolutely do not judge anyone who chooses to trust in these things. But for myself, I would consider placing my trust in any of these things to be the height of foolishness, and completely contrary to the warnings and instructions repeatedly given in Gods Holy Word.
God gave me a mind, he gave me five senses, He expects me to use them. Not to trust in my mind or my senses, least of all my emotions. But to place them under the authority of scripture, and the mind of Christ, which is the Spirit of God.
I would encourage you to do the same.
So I repeat my offer to provide you with the scriptures that support my understanding of the realm in which we live.
And I ask again, to please provide me with those scriptures that support yours.
Christian brothers, when in disagreement should go first to the word. In fact, It should be our final authority on all matters. For the same reason we should not sue one another in courts of law, we should not settle our disagreements over the supernatural, in the courts of materialism.
And creation my brother, unless we remove God completely from the process, was a supernatural event. And I might add, the further distance we place between God and His creation, the further away from the truth about His creation we will find ourselves.
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Why don’t we keep it simple to start? Could you please take two of your favorite verses that regarding a flat earth and make your case as to why they should be interpret literally? Thanks.
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I would be delighted, but you'll have to be patient. Its been a long night and I'm about to get some rest. I'll be back online later this afternoon.
Should I expect that you will also have two or three scriptures for me that support your position, and of course, why they should be taken literally?
Be informed. I'm not your inferior brother, you are not my judge. Neither do I suppose myself or my opinion to be superior to you or yours. I'm not your judge. If we can't approach this as two equals both in search of wisdom,, I have zero interest in pursuing this discussion.
I'll be back later. Have a blessed day.
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d taylor
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The breadth of the earth, in other words the plain of the earth
They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
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It has been repeatedly stated in this thread that the bible is not a science book.
Hebrews 11:3
"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."
But here we find our Brother Paul making a verifiably accurate scientific statement.
He goes on in the following 25 verses to describe the miraculous events of the book of Genesis as though they literally happened, in the order in which they transpired. He repeats the narrative recorded by Moses as actual events made possible through the faith of those who who took God at His word, trusted in His promises and decrees, and acted accordingly.
Paul, while commenting on the creation narrative, speaks of it as a supernatural event, while simultaneously speaking in scientific terms, though he clearly had no scientific frame of reference to draw upon. He did not know the first thing about the atomical structure of matter, any more than Moses knew that man was a carbon based life form when he said this;
Genesis 2:7
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
I was asked why I take the scriptures that describe the earth as level and stationary, fixed, firm, immoveable, with foundations, covered by a dome in which God placed the luminaries, as literal. The answer is simple, because I have no scriptural basis not to do so.
Paul described every chapter of the Genesis narrative as a trustworthy accounting of events, and did so with scientific accuracy. The Genesis narrative described a series of supernatural events, with the same scientific accuracy.
I'm with Paul.. and Peter, who said that holy men of God spake, as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
And I'm with God, who strangely enough has been known to speak for Himself on occasion. He's the Creator, He knows all things, He is not the author of confusion, neither does He lie, for cannot lie. All His words are true, and worthy of our trust.
Genesis 1:14-19
"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
And the evening and the morning were the fourth day."
The fourth day.
After He created light and darkness, after He created the firmament which divided the waters above from the waters below, after He caused the dry land to appear, which He called Earth.
And speaking of the Earth He says;
Job 38:4-14
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment."
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