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What Are The Needs OF our AI and EV Economy?

mark46

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It's just -- EVs are just cars. They don't transform transportation into something more sane (no traffic jams, or something like that). Roads are still roads. The support business will have some changes. (Gas stations replaced by charging stations. Oil change places die out.)
OK, I did use the term to focus on a large future user of electricity and other energy sources. However, electric and driverless vehicles are much more than simply replacing your current Honda or F-150. For example, electric, driverless vehicles can do all sorts of emergency activities as well as work in environments very difficult for humans/
 
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Pommer

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It's just -- EVs are just cars. They don't transform transportation into something more sane (no traffic jams, or something like that). Roads are still roads. The support business will have some changes. (Gas stations replaced by charging stations. Oil change places die out.)
Well yeah there’s “good reason” why you’d want the government to subsidize and regulate a new technology, so that the economy wouldn’t run wild and crash a lot of people’s lives by the sudden, market-driven shifts. Fortunately* Donald Trump done something about that!

*YMMV
 
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mark46

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What "medical advances"?
I apologize. This is a much larger discussion that can be contained here. The effect of AI on medicine and medical practice is truly huge. You can inquire of sources that you trust. I certainly have watched many, many hours on this subject. If you truly want to discuss this, please feel free to start a new thread.
 
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mark46

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Pommer

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OK, I did use the term to focus on a large future user of electricity and other energy sources. However, electric and driverless vehicles are much more than simply replacing your current Honda or F-150. For example, electric, driverless vehicles can do all sorts of emergency activities as well as work in environments very difficult for humans/
Well, yeah, the “market” (if you will), for the possible applications will be a great boon and we should encourage these daring young men in their flying machines! Huzzah!

We’ve lived centuries without this technology and me being over 39 (for a few decades), I know that eventually it’ll just “seem like magic” to me how our world was remade by pushing out a new technology really really fast.
Suddenly all nations “had iron”.

Every new technology comes with a “it’ll make us ‘more-free’” after some fashion, and as one ages it kinda gets harder and harder to see the way it does that.
 
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timewerx

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I wasn't clear. If we are going to move to have a high percentage of electric commercial and personal vehicles be electric, then we will need lots of electricity for those vehicles.

Both the move toward AI and EV will require lots of energy and also beefed-up energy delivery systems.
======
BTW, I do NOT think this is in any way a crisis. There are many workable solutions to these energy needs.

The reason why EV looks attractive vs fossil fuel is the poor energy efficiency of fossil fuel engines. Automotive diesels have 40 to 50% energy efficiency. Gasoline engines are considerably worse.

On the other hand, fossil fuel powerplants supplying electricity to the grid can achieve fuel efficiency of over 90% (not including conversion and transmission) losses. Additionally, the grid can also be supplied by renewable energy.

Electric motors + batteries in EV themselves can achieve 95% efficiency each.

EVs do really help reduce our dependence on fossil fuels because the energy coming from the gid and the tech uses energy more efficiently than the best automotive fossil fuel engines.

The main problem of EV tech is the high volatility of the tech used both literally and economically. EV components might also be toxic like the manufacture and recycling/disposal of lithium batteries.

Personally, I'm not a fan of EV tech. But it's a semi-decent solution to oil dependence. Ironically makes you dependent on rare earth magnets supplied by China though.
 
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Hans Blaster

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OK, I did use the term to focus on a large future user of electricity and other energy sources. However, electric and driverless vehicles are much more than simply replacing your current Honda or F-150. For example, electric, driverless vehicles can do all sorts of emergency activities as well as work in environments very difficult for humans/
Why would I want a car that drives on its own? I don't even let my car *shift* on its own.
 
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Pommer

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The reason why EV looks attractive vs fossil fuel is the poor energy efficiency of fossil fuel engines. Automotive diesels have 40 to 50% energy efficiency. Gasoline engines are considerably worse.
“Good enough!”, will keep most purchasers of ICE automobiles to continue to purchase them, learning new things is hard, and these will eventually “age-out”. 2035 or thereabouts.
 
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Pommer

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Personally, I'm not a fan of EV tech. But it's a semi-decent solution to oil dependence. Ironically makes you dependent on rare earth magnets supplied by China though.
“All the more reason we might want to remain mostly friendly with China within limits!” never occurs to some.
 
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Pommer

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Why would I want a car that drives on its own? I don't even let my car *shift* on its own.
Automatic, but live in hills and (regular) cars don’t anticipate hills in the correct gear, have to manually downshift with a deft flick of the accelerator which probably damages the transmission, (15mph is a fine speed to negotiate some of Pittsburgh’s hills!)
 
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timewerx

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“Good enough!”, will keep most purchasers of ICE automobiles to continue to purchase them, learning new things is hard, and these will eventually “age-out”. 2035 or thereabouts.

I'm not sure you read correctly my post you quoted.

Most who are not on EVs would be driving gasoline engined cars or trucks. Estimated energy efficiency of EV from powerplant fuel to grid to EV car's driveshaft would be around 60 to 70%. Gasoline cars are around 35%.

Gasoline cars have only half the energy efficiency of EVs. If we're considering absolute emissions as well, EVs pull ahead of gasoline cars if renewable energy is also supplied to the grid.

The only thing that's not to like about EV is the battery (low density, potentially huge fire risk, and potentially toxic) and the source of the rare earth magnets. Fix those two issues and there's no reason for cars to be on fossil fuel anymore unless the grid is unable to meet the demand of everyone driving on EVs and server farms sprouting around.
 
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Pommer

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I'm not sure you read correctly my post you quoted.

Most who are not on EVs would be driving gasoline engined cars or trucks. Estimated energy efficiency of EV from powerplant fuel to grid to EV car's driveshaft would be around 60 to 70%. Gasoline cars are around 35%.

Gasoline cars have only half the energy efficiency of EVs. If we're considering absolute emissions as well, EVs pull ahead of gasoline cars if renewable energy is also supplied to the grid.

The only thing that's not to like about EV is the battery (low density, potentially huge fire risk, and potentially toxic) and the source of the rare earth magnets. Fix those two issues and there's no reason for cars to be on fossil fuel anymore unless the grid is unable to meet the demand of everyone driving on EVs and server farms sprouting around.
No, I got what you were saying, I just pointed out that older-folks aren’t going to jump on the bandwagon just because it’s a good idea and overall might be better for the environment, since they’re used to the old-tech.
Don’t misunderestimate the stubbornness of the American people, (it’s our finest quality!)
 
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Larniavc

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mark46

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I find it interesting that folks jumped on EV and have little discussion of AI, the real issue.

BTW, I own a hybrid and would never purchase an EV vehicle.

That being said, EV's limit the need for fossil fuel and reduce carbon emissions. Much less fossil fuels are used in power plants producing electricity than are used in vehicle that burn fossil fuels.
 
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Fantine

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Why would I want a car that drives on its own? I don't even let my car *shift* on its own.
When you are a senior citizen you'll learn why. I bought a 2026 SUV with safety features that will make me a better driver as I age, helping me stay independent, and protecting me and my passengers.
 
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Hans Blaster

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When you are a senior citizen you'll learn why. I bought a 2026 SUV with safety features that will make me a better driver as I age, helping me stay independent, and protecting me and my passengers.

I expect most cars will be electric by then. I'm going to skip past self-shifters and hybrids. The hybrids are the worst of the lot including the worst of both kinds into the same package for a modest decrease in fuel usage.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Automatic, but live in hills and (regular) cars don’t anticipate hills in the correct gear, have to manually downshift with a deft flick of the accelerator which probably damages the transmission, (15mph is a fine speed to negotiate some of Pittsburgh’s hills!)
I've driven rentals from Portland to Bend a few times and got a good paddle shifter and a CVT. Those both drove like real cars and were quite nice. Twenty years ago I was at Lake Tahoe and had to drive around the lake a lot. It wasn't great until I started using the "2" and "3" settings to limit the top gear.
 
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timewerx

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I've driven rentals from Portland to Bend a few times and got a good paddle shifter and a CVT. Those both drove like real cars and were quite nice. Twenty years ago I was at Lake Tahoe and had to drive around the lake a lot. It wasn't great until I started using the "2" and "3" settings to limit the top gear.

Not real enough those semi autos are. The system still has an override if the revs got too high or too low.

I still drive my dad's old car at 2026 with stick and clutch pedal and I'm not a lazy shifter. I shift very early to conserve fuel but also very mindful of the revs and throttle to keep the engine from knocking. I get highway economy in worse city conditions and able to stretch maintenance for everything in the serpentine belt.

Automatic transmissions won't let you do low revs that I'm doing even at economical driving modes. For good reason to protect the engine from drivers with "lead foot". However, it is in low revs where the car is going to be considerably more fuel efficient.

I've always driven at the same speeds but drove at higher revs before with the same car. Incredibly at low revs, I'm getting more than 100 km improvement in range per 40 liters in city driving in exactly the same route all the time. I could never match this efficiency even mindfully driving an automatic version of the same car. The difference in fuel economy is large in city driving and low cruising speeds in the highway (<80 kph) even if I also drive an automatic version of the car at the same speeds and same rates of acceleration.
 
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Tuur

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I know about electric cars, I just don't know how they make an "economy".
In it being not just EV sales and maintenance, but EV chargers, particularly fast chargers. Keep your eyes peeled around hotels and travel centers (AKA "truck stops") and you should see a few. It's not uncommon to have to upgrade conductors and, in some cases, substation capacity, to handle the load. Add enough load and you have to increase generation capacity.

So far, EV charging stations "around here," with the understanding that "around here" is around a 50 mile radius, EV charging stations don't seem to be heavily used. Just a 100% anecdotal observation.

AI data centers seems to have taken the spotlight around from cryptocurrency "mining" centers, but represent a more consistent load than EV at least for right now. Like EV, you have to build infrastructure and generation for the load. Curiously, I'm seen a concerted effort against data centers along the lines of cities saying to rural areas "Oh, you don't want that."
 
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