When does God consider that we are His child?

d taylor said:

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Like i have not heard the, you can lose salvation lie a million times before. There is not a single verse that states a person can become un-born again and cross back over from life to death after they have believed in Jesus for Eternal Life.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

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fli said:

Just when do we become a child of God? When we believe in Jesus we are born of His Spirit. Jesus is God and we reasonably believe that we are considered a child of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. NKJV

But John, the one that taught us we needed to be born from above to enter God's kingdom, also tells us we only have the right to become His child after we believe in Him. The right to become means God does not consider us to have become one of His children just because we believe in His Son.

Romans 8:23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. NKJV

When we are adopted, God has accepted us as one of His children. God will not adopt us until we have died in Jesus. We need to submit to sanctification so we can be perfected. Being perfected means when we get to heaven we will be obedient to God and we will love all our brethren, all redeemed people. Without those two behaviors heaven would not be heaven. Without obedience to God there would be war in heaven. Without everyone loving each other there would be no the peace in heaven. Therefore, God will not take us to heaven until we have been perfected.

Hebrews 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives." 7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. NKJV

God adopts us after we have been disciplined. Only after we have accepted His discipline have, we truly made Jesus our Lord.

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. NKJV

When we first enter Jesus, he begins to teach and convict us of our sins. He teaches us that we must keep his 2 commandments and also keep his word that He convicts us of our need to put to death the sins of the flesh.

1 John 3:22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NKJV

Above are His 2 commandments: “You might say: When did God give us those commandments?” First of all, every word of God that tells us we must do or not do something is a commandment. Notice also, if we keep those 2 commandments we abide in Him. So, when did God tell us those commandments?

John 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. NKJV

Above is the first commandment. From 1John we learn that to abide in Him we must keep believing in Him. It does not mean that we must keep from sinning by obeying the law as some continue to teach.

John 13:33 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." NKJV

It is clear that the second commandment Jesus is telling us to love other believers.

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." NKJV

By the above we know that anyone who keeps the two commandments loves Jesus. Don't we have to repent of the sins He convicts us of? No! We need to follow His word. That means we let Him put us to death or we work with Him to put the sin(s) to death. Both ways we have put our sin(s) to death, through the Spirit.

So how can God say that salvation is not of works if we have to keep 2 commandments, plus we have to be disciplined?

Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; 5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, NKJV

God gave us everything we needed to get into heaven when we put our hope in Him to get us into heaven. All we need to do is to continue to believe.

Colossians 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you hear. NKJV

Paul also tells us that that for us to continue to be holy and blameless in His sight we must continue to have hope in Jesus.

Revelation 12: 17 and Revelation 14: 12 only those who keep the commandments and the faith or witness of Jesus are the ones who make it through to the end.

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bling said:

This does not come from the article you posted for us to read.
God from the beginning of time chose to save those who accepted His Charity, but that does not mean God named them before they chose to humbly accept His help (in God's time frame).
The idea, God is protecting your salvation against all thieves and conman is great. Our salvation is in “The Bank of God”, yet if it is fully owned by us, does that not mean, we can draw it from God’s hand, since it is our gift?

Eternal Life in heaven is spoken of as our inheritance and not something we actually have at the moment. All other Gifts of God we have right away, but heaven is truly ours as a birthright (our inheritance).

Part of the meaning to the concept of being given a gift is the fact that the ownership of the gift actually transfers to the receiver of the gift and as such the receiver of the gift can do what he/she wants to do with the gift.

The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Esau owned the “gift” of the firstborn inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone steal it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.

The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born-again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.

We own a paid-up tax-free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.

Again we are not doing or allowing the Holy Spirit to do good stuff through us to get anything (God has given us since everything is given upfront with the exception of, dwelling in heaven right now), but we do have an undeserved birthright to heaven which cannot be lost like your keys, stolen from you, earned, paid back and even God will not take it from you, but you can of your own free will which you still have: given it away (satan wants it).

Again, God is not taking our gift of eternal life back, since it is a gift, we now have, but we can loss interest in Godly type Love and pursue carnal type Love to the point of not care about living with God forever.

Look also at:

Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to even allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize/grow Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love, so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

I have over 30 other verses which talk about staying firm to the end like:

MARK 13:13 [13], And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

There are a lot of “ifs” written to the Christians, tell us our home in heaven is contingent on us still wanting to be loved unconditionally.

I think I have read and studied all the verses used to try to support: “you cannot be lost after saved”, but see likely alternative interpretations. I see man’s earthly objective needing free will through eternity (Love requires it). I know we can quench the Spirit and not get rid of the Spirit, but we can also intentionally give up (kick out) the Spirit, Love and heaven.

Do you see God taking away our free will and we automatically Love like robots?

I liked the main point of the sermon and this only came up at the end.

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d taylor said:

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The Bible sates no-one can snatch a believer from God. Why do you think you are the exception?

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bling said:

God does not take our free will away from us and would not go against our will. No one could take Esau's birthright from him even his father, but Esau could give it away.
Your birthright is yours.

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d taylor said:

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Birthright is not Eternal Life.

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bling said:

The Hebrew writer used this analogy before I did:
The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Esau owned the “gift” of the firstborn inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone steal it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.

The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born-again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.

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d taylor said:

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How do yall miss this? Esau was a son, Esau sold his birthright inheritance. Rewards, this is about rewards of the believer, it is not about becoming a son and staying a son or loosing the status of a son. It is about loosing the inheritance (rewards) of a son.

For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

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fli said:

Yes, I misspoke. Every gift God gives us, when we believe the gospel, comes because of the hope Jesus gives us. If the gospel does not give the person hope, even if they believe the gospel, there is no saving faith as saving faith is: the substance of our hope. If Jesus does not give them hope they will not believe "in Him."


1Corinthians 11:32 does prove that a believer can lose salvation. God disciplines Christians so they will not be judged with the world. Every Corinthian He was chastising was a true believer. If they were not saved, they were going to be judged with the world anyway. God does not discipline unbelievers; He will punish them when they die. The reason He does not punish Christians when they die physically is because He has disciplined them for their disobedience for not walking in the Spirit.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. (b) And I will give to each one of you according to your works. NKJV

If they didn't teach you the above was God disciplining believers, they taught you wrong. Verse 23b He gives to believers according to their works while in Jesus.

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bling said:

The author of Hebrew's analogy fits the Christian wonderfully:
The oldest son did nothing for his birthright reward, just as the Christian does nothing for his/her inheritance of eternal life. the oldest son's birthright cannot be, stolen from him, lost like a set of keys, earned, deserved, paid back or taken back even by his/her father, just like the Christian's inheritance. The oldest son can sell or give away his birthright, just as the Christian can give away or sell his/her inheritance.

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fli said:

I'll try another tactic.

2 Corinthians 5:12 For we do not commend ourselves again to you, but give you opportunity to boast on our behalf, that you may have an answer for those who boast in appearance and not in heart. 13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. 16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. NKJV

God does not impute sins to anyone in the world today.

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. NKJV

God does not impute any sins to anyone. If anyone loves the darkness more than the light God will condemn them. The light is Jesus. If they do not love Jesus, the light, it is because they love their evil deeds more than Jesus.

1 Corinthians 11:29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. NKJV

God does not discipline unbelievers, if they never believe in Jesus, He will punish them when they die. He does discipline believers. As Paul stated in verse 32 God does chasten a believer so that they may not be condemned with the world. In other words, God disciplines believers so they will not lose salvation. If a person is condemned with the world they are not saved. They were saved before because God disciplined them to keep them from being condemned. Just getting drunk from the wine at the Lord's supper does not condemn anyone as some of those who were disciplined went to sleep. That is Paul's way of saying a Christian has died and went to heaven. If the person being chastened loves their sin more than Jesus, don't they love the darkness? If they love the darkness, they will not follow Jesus' voice to give up their darkness and go to sleep. They will not be chastened to give up what they love. As it states in Hebrews if you are without chastening you are illegitimate.

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fli said:

You believe that the ones in Corinth disrupting the Lord's supper are not saved?

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Mark Quayle said:

This assumption is a common error. Over and over I see the claim that coincidence implies causal order. It does not. The KJV is misleading, there, by the word, "become", in John 1:12. They rightly render some respect to the word that literally indicates a beginning or a (in the perfect tense) "having come from" something. The middle voice is used here, which indicates a large degree of latitude in interpretation. But it does not demand a causal sequence from or to other co-mentioned facts.

Neither the English nor the Greek in John 1:12 says, "AFTER". It only conveys the state, the status, and the coinciding of the one thing with the other. The Greek text uses the point-in-time Aorist tense, in the infinitive, along with the word, "authority" —not exactly, "right"— to denote a complete action, and the gift of adoption into God's family. We have authority as children of God to reject claims that bring consideration or doubt as to who we are. CS Lewis seems to claim, in his Space Trilogy, that we even have, now, (currently), authority over heavenly beings (angels), just as scripture say that we will even judge angels when we are glorified. (The phrase, "Already, but not yet", comes to mind.)

In modern thinking, it is assumed that "received" denotes an act of the will, as though God cannot regenerate until one allows it. That too, is not the primary use of the verb in the ancient Greek. And like it, the word, "believe" denotes something that happened, and not necessarily an act of the will. BUT and further, it is elsewhere in scripture insisted that one does by will choose to entrust, yield, obey, repent and lay hold of, and even to do things to increase faith. In fact, scripture insists that if one does not do these things, that one does not belong to God. But Salvation is entirely by Grace alone, through faith alone, which itself is a gift of God—not a work generated by the will of man.

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Luke81718 said:

I fear for those who insist that one must maintain some standard of good works, or attain some level of personal purity to "obtain" salvation. They never define this standard of course. But they are clearly convinced of their own success in achieving it.

Christ's words, "that by the same measure you use to judge, you shall be judged", ought to scare the crap out of them.

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