In the Bible, is the word 'believe' always the same as 'faith'?

Richard T said:

Yes we agree on the indwelling of the Spirit, where a Chritian is born again, all things become new, etc. The baptism of the Holy s Spirit though is possibly a second experience. I don't expect anyone to read all this teaching but it seems mainstream in most Pentecostal churches. The Holy Spirit Baptism – A Separate Experience
My apologies if I dont always use perfect scriptures or replies. Where we differ is on certain assumptions, none of which seem fatal to the Christian faith, though i am perhaps less dogmatic than some, recognizing that there are competing interpretaions where the exacts may not be known. I do appreciate your's and other's views. You bring up alot of good topics and help fine tune beliefs even though we disagree on some points. Sometimes too I or others may not answer cause we may not have the expertise in that area. Often too some subjects are quite complicated and cant be explained with profuency in simpler threads. Much grace and peace to you!

Click to expand...

No problems Rich.

If you were to ask me to sum up the baptism with the Holy Spirit, it would be this.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

It doesn't divide believers into two different classes, it united believers in Christ and was an answer to Jesus' prayer in John 17:20-23.

That baptism had to wait until Christ was lifted up. Any benefits, like the power, are the result of that baptism, because that baptism results in our being born again. Those OT believers were not, since they had it only in promise. So being born again was the power. It gave them the ability to understand Scripture. Look at the Apostles from both before and after Pentecost. That difference is from going from not being born again to being born again. OT faith was lacking with it's benefits in many ways, mainly everything was in promise, and what they had, the power, and understanding, was a generic version of what we have in the NT.

I'll share what helped me. It seems overwhelming now, but once it clicks, it was simple and easy to see. That how spiritual understanding works. I think that our Father wants the effort before He gives us the understanding.

For anyone reading, I would would say that one of, if not the most important foundational pieces to understand these things is knowing when the NT began. At the cross. I started a thread on that very thing. Once you have that, then every passage that you read, you should make a mental note of when that passage was written, and when what was written about happened, either before or after the cross. What I did, was in my minds eye, I imagined a chalk board running the length of the wall. In the middle, going from top to bottom, I imagined three lines. Each representing the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus in time. Everything to the left is Old Testament/Covenant, everything to the right is New Testament/Covenant. When you read, say, John 7:38-39, in my minds eye, I can place that before the cross, just to the left of the three lines representing the death, resurrection and ascension. You can even imagine writing the verse on that chalk board, or placing a dot, if that helps. If you do this long enough, a picture will begin to immerge. Jesus' death ushered the New Testament/Covenant in, activating it.

Hebrews 9:11-26 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you." Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another-- He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

I'll start a thread on the baptism with the Holy Spirit soon. We call Pentecost the birth of the Church for that reason, no one was placed into Christ before that. Even Pentecostals and Charismatics call Pentecost the birth of the Church, ask them. They just don't understand the ramifications of that Biblical truth. It's the baptism with the Holy Spirit that allows believers to be placed into Christ. Thus birthing the Church.

There's no need to respond or go over anything point by point if you don't want to. I'm sensing that you're already burned out on this topic. If you have any questions, please ask. Being burned out just means you're mentally fatigued. It's hard now, but, as with me, once it clicks, it becomes easy to understand and hold onto.

Your link fails to address the transition taking place. There are promises made and promises delivered. None of which is considered in Charismatic/Pentecostal theology. You have good company, as Calvinism ignores that same context. Without that context, it will remain confusing.

Dave

St_Worm2 said:

Hello again Dave, first off, I'm sorry for the delay in replying to you, but hopefully (Dv) I'll be able to do so now (or at least get started doing so)

Concerning the statement above, this is what I used to believe too, but as I considered a little more carefully what the Scriptures were saying about the Spirit's activity (in the lives of OT believers), I revised what I believed, a bit anyway, beginning with the craftsmen who constructed the various parts and pieces of the Tent of Meeting .. e.g. Exodus 31:1-11, men who were "filled" by the Spirit and empowered by Him, thereby, to do the work that He needed them to do (IOW, I believe that He could not have "filled" certain individuals if He only dwelt in the midst of the people of Israel, rather, He had to dwell within them as individuals to "fill" them, albeit in a somewhat different manner than He does today in the lives of all who are true believers).

So, while I continue to acknowledge profound differences between OT & NT believers (e.g. things like the permanency of the Spirit's indwelling), I have also come to believe that the Holy Spirit did far more than simply abide "in the midst" of the congregation of Israel, that He also resided in the hearts and minds of at least some of the individuals who made up that congregation. Perhaps these were individuals who, like Abraham .. e.g. Genesis 15:6/Romans 4:3, had believed in and trusted God such that their belief was reckoned or credited to them (personally) as "righteousness" (and had come to what we refer to as "saving faith" today)?

This topic continues to be a controversial one in the historic Christian faith (in large part, I think, because both sides of the controversy can support their beliefs with Scripture). Perhaps I have missed something that you've found however, so which verse(s) settle this matter (that the Holy Spirit did not personally indwell and fill OT believers, that is) for you?

Thanks!

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - one of the things that I find interesting in all of this is the teaching that OT believers needed to be "born again", a point that the Lord gently chided Nicodemus, the "teacher of Israel", for not already knowing all about (in John 3). After all, I believe that most of the Pharisees had the entire OT memorized (and if true, Nicodemus must have), so how was it that he/they missed what the OT had already said about it (which, interestingly, is somewhat more detailed in certain ways than anything that we find in the NT about the "new birth"), what God Himself had said in the 1st Person, in fact?

Ezekiel 36​

26 “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. ​

27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.”​

Could "within you" above be translated instead as "in your midst" (which would mean that God wasn't speaking of individuals, but rather, to the whole of Israel)? Yes, but it hardly seems likely since the meaning that we give to Hebrew words principally depends upon the context that they are written in.

BTW, I know what you are saying concerning God's presence in their very midst (a Pillar of Fire by night and a Cloud by day to lead them), but what resulted from His presence among them/"in their midst" as a collective whole could hardly be described in the manner of v27 above, could it? (Remember that it was only a matter of weeks between their Red Sea crossing and their idolatrous worship of the golden calf at the foot of Mt. Sinai) It seems to me that they (just like us today) were a stiff-necked people, who clearly needed God to quicken them (to "spiritual" life) and change them ~as individuals~ (from the inside out, just like He does for us today), for them to ever be able to truly, "walk in His statutes & observe His ordinances"!

Click to expand...

Hey St Worm

If you've ever watched the spaghetti wester called the 'The White Buffalo' with Charles Bronson. As it went, Ten Bears son was killed by one of, if not the last white buck left in the west. He changed his name to worm until he avenged his sons death by killing that white buck. He teams up with Charles Bronson's character, Wild Bill Hickock for a while, only to reveal himself at the end of the movie. It's my second favorite spaghetti wester after The Good, The Bad and the Ugly. Anyways, you name made me think about that.

If you remember, Moses had the Holy Spirit placed upon him in number 11:17, 25. He asked for help in the tasks that God had given him and God then allowed the Spirit to go upon the seventy elders. In the OT, being "filled" means being fully equipped, enabled, and directed by God for a particular purpose. In the NT, being filled means to be more under the control of the Holy Spirit. I don't see why a person cannot be filled (equipped to perform a certain task) without being indwelt.

I started a thread you may be interested in.


Ezekiel 36 is a promise fulfilled with the baptism with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit being the agent of that "placing into" Christ. The Holy Spirit indwelling, and as a result our being born again, was not available until Christ was lifted us, as it says in John 3:13-15. That Ezekiel passage is paralleled very nicely all through out John. Especially John 7:38-39. Still as a future promise and before the cross, and Pentecost. This is why Nicodemus didn't understand (Romans 3:11), because he was not yet born again. I'll quote just a few.

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

John 16:12-15 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

John 3:3,5,12-15 ... 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (see John 16:12-15 above)...

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God....

12-15 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

The tabernacle and Temple, The Arc of the Covenant, among other things was one way that God was present in the OT. This gave the regular believer access to God through the Priest, that entered the Temple after it was cleansed with blood. Consider the power of the presence of God, like in (John 12:35-36). Luke 24:45 is yet another example of the presence of God allowing people to believe. That too was before the cross. So I believe that in John 12:36-37, the "Light" that Jesus is referring to is Himself. Though here's something for you to chew on. God's Word is also called light. And the parable of the Sewer of seeds says that Satan will try to steal the Word of God, the Gospel, the Seed, from a person (Luke 8:12). In short, the light in John 12:36-37 can be Jesus incarnate (John 8:12, 9:5), the Gospel message, or both. Interesting thought, anyways. It's like saying that when Jesus is physically away, the Word can be taken from them.

Also, I may have said this already in this thread, but I believe that's why Jesus said that when He is lifted up, He will draw all men to Him, because God's presence in the NT goes with every believer through the indwelling when they evangelize (John 12:32).

Hebrews 10 elaborates a little on why there was a delay in our receiving the indwelling until after the death, resurrection, and ascension, that unites us with Christ and justifies and saves us. Remember, when we are placed into Him, we are are simultaneously placed into His death (Galatians 2:20), and raised up with Him (Ephesians 2:6), born again. If we are not indwelt, we are not born again (Romans 8:9-14) . We will lack all the benefits that go with that, including understanding. OT believers had the presence of God, and some had God's Spirit put upon them for certain tasks. the filling, I'm not sure beyond being equipped for certain tasks.

Dave

St_Worm2 said:

I'll try to keep my replies on the shorter side going forward , so, what do you mean above (what was/is "owed" to true believers by God, IOW)? Thanks again

Click to expand...

Being placed into Christ and justified. Being born again. All of this required the Holy Spirit to be given as promised to believers. The indwelling that places us in Christ. That had to wait until Christ was glorified, meaning there was a death, resurrection and ascension to apply, both legally (the Law), and practically (born again).

It was all by promise. It was owed to all OT believers. What OT believers had was a very generic version of our being born again. You see this evidenced from their understanding of things both before and after Pentecost. this is also evidenced in the way they carried themselves both before and after they were born again, which happened after they were baptized into Christ with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

In Hebrews 11, it says that some OT believers even died without ever receiving those promises. These are not just the physical promises to physical Israel that they died not receiving, but I believe those are also a type of the spiritual promises that were made also. Don't look past vs 40 below too quickly.

Hebrews 11:39-40 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

ESV John 1:11-12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, ---> future --->who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (This points to and is fulfilled at Pentecost. They only had the right.)

Romans 2:25-26

Here's a quote from an older post.

Dave... said:

Hey Dan

Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. One must be in Christ to be saved. That was not available except by promise until the Holy Spirit was given to usher in the NT and all the accompanying promises. First, Jesus needed to be lifted up, meaning, there needed to be a death, resurrection and ascension. After that, the Holy Spirit could be given to indwell a believer, because He now comes with the blood to cleanse that Temple, us, Temples of the Holy Spirit. That was not possible in the OT. Once in Christ, we are born again and justified through that death and resurrection.

True Old Testament believers physically dead (sheep) Waited in Hades/Sheol, which held paradise until the ascension. They were waiting until His death, resurrection, and ascension were complete, per scripture, to be with the Father (John 3:13-14). Before that, their atonement, imputed righteousness and being born again were only a promise that waited for fulfillment. this only happens when a person is placed into Christ.

True Old Testament believers alive, who were already declared righteous by their OT faith, and who then already heard the Gospel and believed, (sheep) received the promise of the Father at, or just after Pentecost. This indwelling was owed to them by promise, hence, the Promise of the Father. This promise goes all the way back to Ezekiel 36:26-27. The baptism/placing into with the Holy Spirit was given, which placed them into Christ. The birth of the Church (Pentecost) are the first placed into Christ, the Body, the Church.

True Old Testament believers alive, who were already declared righteous by their OT faith, who did not yet hear the Gospel. This is what is called the transition period. These OT believers who are recorded as coming to faith in Jesus all through Acts. On Pentecost the three thousand, and later, people like Lydia, Cornelius, the Acts 19 OT believers, all needed to hear the Gospel so that they could fulfill their predestination to be conformed to Christlikeness (Romans 8:28-29). When the last of these OT true believers heard the Gospel and believed, the norm is that once a person genuinely believes, at that same moment, Jesus, the baptizer, places the Holy Spirit in them, thus placing them in Him, in Christ.

Click to expand...

St_Worm2 said:

Hello again @Dave..., I just found a short, interesting article about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which I will post (in part) here.

As the Holy Spirit lives in the believer, He brings about some life-changing results:​

​

1) The indwelling Spirit comes to a soul dead in sin and creates new life (Titus 3:5). This is the new birth Jesus spoke of in John 3:1–8.​

​

2) The indwelling Spirit confirms to the believer that he belongs to the Lord and is an heir of God and fellow-heir with Christ (Romans 8:15–17).​

​

3) The indwelling Spirit installs the new believer as a member of Christ’s universal church. This is the baptism of the Spirit, according to 1 Corinthians 12:13.​

​

4) The indwelling Spirit gives spiritual gifts (God-given abilities for service) to the believer to edify the church and serve the Lord effectively for His glory (1 Corinthians 12:11).​

​

5) The indwelling Spirit helps the believer understand and apply the Scripture to his daily life (1 Corinthians 2:12).​

​

6) The indwelling Spirit enriches the believer’s prayer life and intercedes for him in prayer (Romans 8:26–27).​

​

7) The indwelling Holy Spirit empowers the yielded believer to live for Christ to do His will (Galatians 5:16). The Spirit leads the believer in paths of righteousness (Romans 8:14).​

​

8) The indwelling Spirit gives evidence of new life by producing the fruit of the Spirit in the believer’s life (Galatians 5:22–23).​

​

9) The indwelling Spirit is grieved when the believer sins (Ephesians 4:30), and He convicts the believer to confess his sin to the Lord so that fellowship is restored (1 John 1:9).​

​

10) The indwelling Spirit seals the believer unto the day of redemption so that the believer’s arrival in the Lord’s presence is guaranteed after this life (Ephesians 1:13–14).​

​

When you accept Christ as your Savior (Romans 10:9–13), the Holy Spirit takes up residence in your heart, bringing with Him an entirely new life of love, relationship, and service to the Lord.​

​

If you'd care to read the entire article (which speaks of the Spirit's indwelling, both OT & New), go here: What is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? | GotQuestions.org (it has a video as well, with the same text as the article, just FYI).

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - as I read the above points, I wondered how the ancient Israelites could have even begun to walk with God/obey Him on their own (in this way, in an ongoing manner) apart from the Spirit personally helping them/guiding them as individuals, that is (just like He does today, for us)?

Click to expand...

The Holy Spirit would come upon a believer in the OT, but that was to perform specific tasks. A person could believe in the OT without the Holy Spirit coming upon them. But OT believers never had the indwelling, as the indwelling is only the result of believing, and in the NT only. See John 7:38-39

So we have a few choices as to where or how that OT faith came to be. Which could also answer the question as to where the NT faith comes from. I'm speaking of the initial believing, and not the Spirit powered faith that comes from being indwelt, or what I would call the ongoing faith, and being born again, which appears to be absent from OT believers. Even in the NT, the indwelling is the result of believing, always. 1) The Word of God has power and is the only way an unsaved person can be entered by God without the blood atonement that comes with the NT indwelling. Or, 2) The presence of God. Which is what OT believers may have relied on to believe. We now carry that presence with us in the NT. Or 3) the flesh is capable of putting together a desire to want to be saved/delivered (Romans 7:18).

Dave

Richard T said:

Hi, thanks for the reply. I do believe in the baptism in the body of Christ. I've heard it taught as one of the seven baptisms in the bible and figure it represents being born again. Born again is the big one, and yes it is done by The Holy Spirit. Even though i still believe a second grace occurs in the power to witness, I think it can occur simultaneously with being born again. Regardless no one is second class that is born again. We are all equal in christ. It leaves us with the question do Christians all get outward signs like tongues or prophecy? It either could be residing already in them but they are held back because of teaching, or I suppose it could be a second experence as most Pentecostals teach. You and others have helped me see it as possibly one but in practical terms how much does it matter? To a theologian alot but to a street preacher i think very little. Little because anyone seeking results has to encourage others to go as far as possible. I am trying to brush up on foundational truths and i will keep your points in mind as I try to incorporate more teaching. God bless

Click to expand...

Hey, Rich.

If you see the baptism that places us into Christ in Scripturelike (1 Corinthians 12:13), then you also see what is called the baptism with the Holy Spirit in Scripture. It's the same thing. Once we are in Christ, we are complete in him and lacking nothing (Colossians 2:9-14). The filling, is not receiving more of the Holy Spirit, rather, it just means to be more under His control. In other words, the more that we yield our lives to Him is the result of the filling. To yield every day decisions, our thoughts, our desires, etc. People can be filled supernaturally, like in Acts, but only we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit once. People can be filled over and over again, but indwelt "baptized with the Holy Spirit" into Christ once. The Baptism/placing into with the Holy Spirit is what baptizes/places us in Christ. There was just a unique point in time in history when the people who had to wait for that because they only had it in promise began to receive it.. We see that unique time and the events recorded in Acts. Today, we receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit into Christ the moment we first believe.

Dave

Richard T said:

I get most that agreeing too that we learn to yield hopefully deeper and deeper. If I agree that the baptism of the spirit is given the dame time as one is born again, why is it so many get tongues even years down the road?

Click to expand...

Hey Rich

Tongues is just a sixteenth century term used for languages. It was used when the KJV Bible was written and published in the early sixteenth century. What we call 'languages' today, in that time, they called it 'tongues'. To say 'speak in tongues' just means to 'speak in languages'. Todays Pentecostals and Charismatics are not speaking in languages. By Biblical definition, it's not the gift of languages. What they have done is recreated, and are practicing, the pagan mystery religion gibberish known as the 'languages of the gods" that was so common in the pagan religions in Rome back in the time that Paul was writing to the church of Corinth. It had infiltrated the church of Corinth, but Paul set the record straight, and explained it to them, as babes in Christ. Those gentle rebukes by Paul to the Corinthians are today deliberately misinterpreted as positive commands, thus recreating the mystery religions from two thousand years ago.

Dave

St_Worm2 said:

Hey Dave, I've seen the movie and I like it, but it has been a long while since I watched it (I didn't realize that The White Buffalo was a spaghetti western).

For what it's worth, my username, St_Worm2, is actually based on Luther's little quote, simul justus et peccator, the one that you'll find just below my username & avatar here at CF. It means, "at the same time just and sinner". The "2" at the end is because back in the late 90's/early 2,000's there was already a St. Worm member here at CF (a Lutheran/LCMS, if memory serves).

Click to expand...

'The White Buffalo' technically wasn't a spaghetti western because it wasn't directed by an Italian director, nor was it made in Italy, but those types of movies became so popular that everyone was making them. If it's cheaply made, and both cheesy and cool at the same time, for me it qualifies. but technically you're right.

St_Worm2 said:

Well, when my wife waters her flowers, she typically does so by "filling" the watering pot, because running water on the pot or around the outside of it would not be "filling" it, nor would it get the job done (not my best analogy, but there it is anyway )

Also, I wanted to point out that the use of the Spirit "coming upon/resting on" people is NT terminology too. For instance,

Acts 1​

8 You will receive power when the Holy Spirit has ~come upon~ you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.” ​

​

Acts 2​

1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. ​

2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. ​

3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they ~rested on~ each one of them. ​

4 And they were all ~filled~ with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance. ​

Even Joel's OT prophesy tells us much the same, does it not?

Joel 2​

28 “It will come about after this ​

That I will pour out My Spirit ~on~ all mankind; ​

And your sons and daughters will prophesy, ​

Your old men will dream dreams, ​

Your young men will see visions. ​

29 “Even ~on~ the male and female servants ​

I will pour out My Spirit in those days.​

So, the same terminology is used concerning the Spirit's work in us, in both the OT/NT (resting on/filling/indwelling). However, all of this, while extremely important, is a secondary matter, IMHO, so let's go back to the heart of the matter instead, salvation (especially since that's what you begin to address in your next paragraph ).

Click to expand...

I think that there is enough prophecy regarding Pentecost that we can understand what was happening there at Pentecost. John the Baptist spoke about it, and that was mentioned by Jesus in chapter one. It's the baptism with the Holy Spirit. That baptism places believers in Christ. The baptism is the indwelling. It needed to wait for Jesus to be lifted up for obvious reasons. Think about it, why would the Holy Spirit need to come upon someone who is already indwelt by Him? Clearly, "upon" in that context means to receive the indwelling, the baptism with the Holy Spirit that saves. I think that any discrepancies in the terminology has more to do with the translation difficulties than anything else, simply because the context of the Bible removes all the mystery about it. There are a few places in the OT that claim that people were indwelt, when that is either assumed into the translation (which happens), or was flat out wrongly translated. The KJV is very good for doing those things. I think that's why people cling to that translation, to hold onto the error from it. We can follow that logic all through Scripture. Why did OT believers need Priests if they were already indwelt by the High Priest Himself? Why did God live in Temples, and need the Priest to be a go between, to cleanse that temple, etc? Why did Adam and Eve need to be removed from God's presence? Weren't they already saved by credit?

Also, don't overlook what was said about David in Acts two. Start there for OT believers who already passed on and never heard the Gospel. Jesus went to Hades. Remember, He has the keys to Hades and death. He went there to preach to the Spirits. That's where I believe the OT believers heard the Gospel and believed. Then Jesus led captivity captive, giving gifts to men per Pentecost. Paradise was in Hades, remember the thief on the cross? Today you will be with Me in Paradise. Later, Paul speaks of a man caught up in the third heaven, in Paradise. Paradise was taken by Jesus to the third heaven. Along with it, the OT believers who were waiting. Finally, they can be in the Presence of God, remember, none ascended (John 3:13-14), because Jesus was not lifted up. Next, OT believers still living, some already heard the Gospel, and some were still OT believers who never heard the Gospel. Maybe even some who heard the Gospel, but were not yet committed to it/Him. They were owed the Promise of the Father. Not a helping, or a measure, but the Spirit of Christ Himself. Whom without we are not His and He alone is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

St_Worm2 said:

If no one could be born again until the Lord Jesus was lifted up, by what means, then, were people were able to be quickened, justified and come to saving faith in the OT (or do you believe that no one was able to be saved until the time of the Lord's death and resurrection, that ~all~ who came before the Cross were, in fact, lost)?

I'll leave talking about more of the specifics of your last paragraph (above) until next time or this post is going to be too long, yet again

God bless you!!

Click to expand...

I think I answered that a little with what I already wrote above.

By what means did these believe? This is still OT. this is still a future promise, just like it was in Ezekiel 36:26-27.

John 7:38-39. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

St_Worm2 said:

--David
p.s. - by what means can a "natural" man or woman come to saving faith (whether we are speaking of those in the NT or the OT)?

1 Corinthians 2​

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, ​

13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. ​

14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. ​

15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. ​

16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ. ​

Click to expand...

This is the result of coming to a saving faith in the NT. This is the result of being born again. Calvinism applies this truth to the initial faith, but the text doesn't warrant that. This is still OT.

John 16:7-16 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. "A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father."

That is all the result of being born again, which they could not be, because the Spirit was not yet given, because Christ was not yet glorified.

I'm out of time. Peace.

D