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List of Totally or Partially Omitted, Transposed and Interpolated Bible Passages

WordSword

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Most Bible studies will not involve one of the most significant issues of the times, which has to do with modern Bible translations. This issue of course cannot effect one’s salvation, but will effect one’s spiritual growth, not receiving all of God’s Word and being exposed to misleading information.

The majority of those who copied scriptural manuscripts (scribes) discarded a small amount of manuscripts that did not agree with the majority of extant copies. Two sources that were rejected for copying were the codex Vaticanus and the codex Sinaiticus. The codex Alexandrinus is included but is excessively missing much of the OT and NT, along with much decadence of page condition, torn leaves and lacunae on the edges of almost every page of Revelation.

These oldest manuscript copies just recently became available (19th century) for making translations. The Vaticanus was discovered in the Vatican library and remained perdu for fifteen centuries, until it was discovered on a shelf. The Sinaiticus was discovered at St. Catherine's Monastery at the foot of Mount Sinai in Egypt. A monk was burning some of the leaves (probably to keep warm) when Constantine von Tischendorf, a German biblical scholar, located portions of the manuscript there. He first found some leaves in a waste basket during his initial visit in 1844. A larger portion of the manuscript was discovered during his subsequent visit in 1859.

The recently found manuscript copies did not wear out like the majority of extant copies because they fell into disuse due to the fact that most of the scribes would not use them for copying purposes.


Totally Omitted Passages​


Matthew 17:21
Matthew 18:11
Mat 23:14
Mark 7:16
Mark 9:44
Mark 9:46
Mark 11:26
Mark 15:28
Luke 23:17
Acts 24:7
1Jn 5:7


Partially Omitted, Transposed or Interpolated Passages

Matthew 1:25
Matthew 19:9
Matthew 19:17
Matthew 20:7
Matthew 20:16
Matthew 20:22, 23
Matthew 21:12
Matthew 22:13
Matthew 23:4
Matthew 23:8
Matthew 23:19
Matthew 24:7
Matthew 25:13
Matthew 26:28
Matthew 26:60
Matthew 27:24
Matthew 27:35
Matthew 27:64
Matthew 28:2
Matthew 28:6
Matthew 28:9​
Matthew 5:22
Matthew 5:44
Matthew 6:4
Matthew 6:6
Matthew 6:13
Matthew 6:18
Matthew 9:13
Matthew 15:8
Matthew 15:6
Matthew 16:3
Matthew 16:20
Matthew 18:35
Matthew 19:9
Matthew 19:17
Matthew 20:7
Matthew 20:16
Matthew 20:22, 23
Matthew 21:12
Matthew 22:13
Matthew 23:4
Matthew 23:8
Matthew 23:19
Matthew 24:7
Matthew 25:13
Matthew 26:28
Matthew 26:60
Matthew 27:24
Matthew 27:35
Matthew 27:64
Matthew 28:2
Matthew 28:6
Matthew 28:9
Mark 1:2
Mark 1:14
Mark 1:31
Mark 3:15
Mark 4:24
Mark 5:36
Mark 6:33
Mark 6:11
Mark 6:51
Mark 7:8
Mark 8:26
Mark 9:23
Mark 9:29
Mark 9:45
Mark 9:49
Mark 10:21
Mark 10:24
Mark 11:10
Mark 12:23
Mark 12:29-30
Mark 12:33
Mark 13:8
Mark 13:33
Mark 13:14
Mark 14:22
Mark 14:27
Mark 14:68
Mark 14:70
Luke 1:28
Luke 2:33
Luke 2:40
Luke 2:43
Luke 4:8
Luke 4:4
Luke 4:18
Luke 4:41
Luke 5:38
Luke 7:31
Luke 8:43
Luke 8:48
Luke 8:54
Luke 9:10
Luke 9:54
Luke 9:55
Luke 9:56
Luke 9:57
Luke 10:19
Luke 11:2
Luke 11:11
Luke 11:29
Luke 11:44
Luke 11:54
Luke 12:31
Luke 12:39
Luke 17:3
Luke 17:9
Luke 18:24
Luke 19:45
Luke 20:13
Luke 20:30
Luke 20:33
Luke 21:4
Luke 22:31
Luke 22:64
Luke 22:68
Luke 23:23
Luke 23:38
Luke 23:42
Luke 24:1
Luke 24:42
Luke 24:49
Luke 24:53
John 1:14
John 1:18
John 1:27
John 3:13
John 3:15
John 3:16
John 4:42
John 5:16
John 6:11
John 6:47
John 8:9
John 8:59
John 9:35
John 11:41
John 12:1
John 16:16
John 17:12
John 19:16
John 20:29
Acts 2:30
Acts 2:31
Acts 3:11
Acts 3:26
Acts 7:30
Acts 7:37
Acts 9:5,6
Acts 10:6
Acts 9:29
Acts 10:21
Acts 10:30
Acts 15:18
Acts 15:24
Acts 15:37
Acts 16:31
Acts 17:5
Acts 18:17
Acts 18:21
Acts 20:15
Acts 20:24
Acts 20:25
Acts 20:32
Acts 21:8
Acts 21:22
Acts 21:25
Acts 22:9
Acts 23:9
Acts 24:6
Acts 24:8
Acts 24:15
Acts 24:26
Acts 25:16
Acts 26:30
Acts 28:16
Romans 1:16
Romans 8:1
Romans 9:28
Romans 10:15
Romans 11:6
Romans 13:9
Romans 14:6
Romans 14:21
Romans 15:29
1 Corinthians 2:4
1 Corinthians 4:6
1 Corinthians 6:20
1 Corinthians 7:29
1 Corinthians 10:28
1 Corinthians 11:24
1 Corinthians 11:29
1 Corinthians 15:47
1 Corinthians 16:22-23
2 Corinthians 4:4
2 Corinthians 4:10
Galatians 3:1
Galatians 4:7
Galatians 5:21
Galatians 6:15
Ephesians 3:9
Ephesians 3:14
Ephesians 5:30
Ephesians 6:10
Philippians 3:16
Colossians 1:2
Colossians 1:14
Colossians 2:2
Colossians 2:18
Colossians 3:6
1 Thessalonians 1:1
1 Thessalonians 5:27
2 Thessalonians 1:8
1 Timothy 3:16
1 Timothy 4:12
1 Timothy 5:16
1 Timothy 6:5
2 Timothy 1:11
2 Timothy 2:9
2 Timothy 4:22
Philemon 1:12
Titus 1:4
Hebrews 1:3
Hebrews 2:7
Hebrews 7:21
Hebrews 10:9
Hebrews 10:30
Hebrews 10:34
Hebrews 11:11
Hebrews 11:37
Hebrews 12:20
1 Peter 1:22
1 Peter 4:1
1 Peter 4:14
1 Peter 5:5
1 Peter 5:10-11
2 Peter 1:21
2 Peter 2:17
2 Peter 3:10
1 John 1:7
1 John 2:7
1 John 4:3
1 John 4:9
1 John 4:19
1 John 5:7, 8
1 John 5:13
2 John 1:9
Jude 1:25
Revelation 1:8
Revelation 1:11
Revelation 1:20
Revelation 2:13
Revelation 2:15
Revelation 5:14
Revelation 6:1, 3, 5, 7
Revelation 11:17
Revelation 12:12
Revelation 12:17
Revelation 14:5
Revelation 15:2
Revelation 16:17
Revelation 18:20
Revelation 20:9
Revelation 20:12
Revelation 21:24
Revelation 22:19
 

NewLifeInChristJesus

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Most Bible studies will not involve one of the most significant issues of the times, which has to do with modern Bible translations. This issue of course cannot effect one’s salvation, but will effect one’s spiritual growth, not receiving all of God’s Word and being exposed to misleading information.

The majority of those who copied scriptural manuscripts (scribes) discarded a small amount of manuscripts that did not agree with the majority of extant copies. Two sources that were rejected for copying were the codex Vaticanus and the codex Sinaiticus. The codex Alexandrinus is included but is excessively missing much of the OT and NT, along with much decadence of page condition, torn leaves and lacunae on the edges of almost every page of Revelation.

These oldest manuscript copies just recently became available (19th century) for making translations. The Vaticanus was discovered in the Vatican library and remained perdu for fifteen centuries, until it was discovered on a shelf. The Sinaiticus was discovered at St. Catherine's Monastery at the foot of Mount Sinai in Egypt. A monk was burning some of the leaves (probably to keep warm) when Constantine von Tischendorf, a German biblical scholar, located portions of the manuscript there. He first found some leaves in a waste basket during his initial visit in 1844. A larger portion of the manuscript was discovered during his subsequent visit in 1859.

The recently found manuscript copies did not wear out like the majority of extant copies because they fell into disuse due to the fact that most of the scribes would not use them for copying purposes.



Totally Omitted Passages​


Matthew 17:21
Matthew 18:11
Mat 23:14
Mark 7:16
Mark 9:44
Mark 9:46
Mark 11:26
Mark 15:28
Luke 23:17
Acts 24:7
1Jn 5:7


Partially Omitted, Transposed or Interpolated Passages

Matthew 1:25
Matthew 19:9
Matthew 19:17
Matthew 20:7
Matthew 20:16
Matthew 20:22, 23
Matthew 21:12
Matthew 22:13
Matthew 23:4
Matthew 23:8
Matthew 23:19
Matthew 24:7
Matthew 25:13
Matthew 26:28
Matthew 26:60
Matthew 27:24
Matthew 27:35
Matthew 27:64
Matthew 28:2
Matthew 28:6
Matthew 28:9​
Matthew 5:22
Matthew 5:44
Matthew 6:4
Matthew 6:6
Matthew 6:13
Matthew 6:18
Matthew 9:13
Matthew 15:8
Matthew 15:6
Matthew 16:3
Matthew 16:20
Matthew 18:35
Matthew 19:9
Matthew 19:17
Matthew 20:7
Matthew 20:16
Matthew 20:22, 23
Matthew 21:12
Matthew 22:13
Matthew 23:4
Matthew 23:8
Matthew 23:19
Matthew 24:7
Matthew 25:13
Matthew 26:28
Matthew 26:60
Matthew 27:24
Matthew 27:35
Matthew 27:64
Matthew 28:2
Matthew 28:6
Matthew 28:9
Mark 1:2
Mark 1:14
Mark 1:31
Mark 3:15
Mark 4:24
Mark 5:36
Mark 6:33
Mark 6:11
Mark 6:51
Mark 7:8
Mark 8:26
Mark 9:23
Mark 9:29
Mark 9:45
Mark 9:49
Mark 10:21
Mark 10:24
Mark 11:10
Mark 12:23
Mark 12:29-30
Mark 12:33
Mark 13:8
Mark 13:33
Mark 13:14
Mark 14:22
Mark 14:27
Mark 14:68
Mark 14:70
Luke 1:28
Luke 2:33
Luke 2:40
Luke 2:43
Luke 4:8
Luke 4:4
Luke 4:18
Luke 4:41
Luke 5:38
Luke 7:31
Luke 8:43
Luke 8:48
Luke 8:54
Luke 9:10
Luke 9:54
Luke 9:55
Luke 9:56
Luke 9:57
Luke 10:19
Luke 11:2
Luke 11:11
Luke 11:29
Luke 11:44
Luke 11:54
Luke 12:31
Luke 12:39
Luke 17:3
Luke 17:9
Luke 18:24
Luke 19:45
Luke 20:13
Luke 20:30
Luke 20:33
Luke 21:4
Luke 22:31
Luke 22:64
Luke 22:68
Luke 23:23
Luke 23:38
Luke 23:42
Luke 24:1
Luke 24:42
Luke 24:49
Luke 24:53
John 1:14
John 1:18
John 1:27
John 3:13
John 3:15
John 3:16
John 4:42
John 5:16
John 6:11
John 6:47
John 8:9
John 8:59
John 9:35
John 11:41
John 12:1
John 16:16
John 17:12
John 19:16
John 20:29
Acts 2:30
Acts 2:31
Acts 3:11
Acts 3:26
Acts 7:30
Acts 7:37
Acts 9:5,6
Acts 10:6
Acts 9:29
Acts 10:21
Acts 10:30
Acts 15:18
Acts 15:24
Acts 15:37
Acts 16:31
Acts 17:5
Acts 18:17
Acts 18:21
Acts 20:15
Acts 20:24
Acts 20:25
Acts 20:32
Acts 21:8
Acts 21:22
Acts 21:25
Acts 22:9
Acts 23:9
Acts 24:6
Acts 24:8
Acts 24:15
Acts 24:26
Acts 25:16
Acts 26:30
Acts 28:16
Romans 1:16
Romans 8:1
Romans 9:28
Romans 10:15
Romans 11:6
Romans 13:9
Romans 14:6
Romans 14:21
Romans 15:29
1 Corinthians 2:4
1 Corinthians 4:6
1 Corinthians 6:20
1 Corinthians 7:29
1 Corinthians 10:28
1 Corinthians 11:24
1 Corinthians 11:29
1 Corinthians 15:47
1 Corinthians 16:22-23
2 Corinthians 4:4
2 Corinthians 4:10
Galatians 3:1
Galatians 4:7
Galatians 5:21
Galatians 6:15
Ephesians 3:9
Ephesians 3:14
Ephesians 5:30
Ephesians 6:10
Philippians 3:16
Colossians 1:2
Colossians 1:14
Colossians 2:2
Colossians 2:18
Colossians 3:6
1 Thessalonians 1:1
1 Thessalonians 5:27
2 Thessalonians 1:8
1 Timothy 3:16
1 Timothy 4:12
1 Timothy 5:16
1 Timothy 6:5
2 Timothy 1:11
2 Timothy 2:9
2 Timothy 4:22
Philemon 1:12
Titus 1:4
Hebrews 1:3
Hebrews 2:7
Hebrews 7:21
Hebrews 10:9
Hebrews 10:30
Hebrews 10:34
Hebrews 11:11
Hebrews 11:37
Hebrews 12:20
1 Peter 1:22
1 Peter 4:1
1 Peter 4:14
1 Peter 5:5
1 Peter 5:10-11
2 Peter 1:21
2 Peter 2:17
2 Peter 3:10
1 John 1:7
1 John 2:7
1 John 4:3
1 John 4:9
1 John 4:19
1 John 5:7, 8
1 John 5:13
2 John 1:9
Jude 1:25
Revelation 1:8
Revelation 1:11
Revelation 1:20
Revelation 2:13
Revelation 2:15
Revelation 5:14
Revelation 6:1, 3, 5, 7
Revelation 11:17
Revelation 12:12
Revelation 12:17
Revelation 14:5
Revelation 15:2
Revelation 16:17
Revelation 18:20
Revelation 20:9
Revelation 20:12
Revelation 21:24
Revelation 22:19
Most good Bibles today (electronic and physical), including KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV, HCSB, and ASV have footnotes that identify variants in Greek texts. So I guess I don't know how using one of those Bibles "will effect one’s spiritual growth, not receiving all of God’s Word and being exposed to misleading information".

Your post here makes it seem like the Bibles we use today are vastly different in content. But the opposite is true. There are many good articles on the subject. And because of the footnotes I mentioned above, it is easy for today's reader to be well informed of the significant variants. So I guess I don't understand why you're being so negative.
 
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WordSword

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Most good Bibles today (electronic and physical), including KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV, HCSB, and ASV have footnotes that identify variants in Greek texts. So I guess I don't know how using one of those Bibles "will effect one’s spiritual growth, not receiving all of God’s Word and being exposed to misleading information".

Your post here makes it seem like the Bibles we use today are vastly different in content. But the opposite is true. There are many good articles on the subject. And because of the footnotes I mentioned above, it is easy for today's reader to be well informed of the significant variants. So I guess I don't understand why you're being so negative.
Hi, and appreciate your reply and concern! With me, the footnotes just discredit the Word because they indicate that the information (Scripture) listed should not be included. Also, many of the passages in the modern versions are changed by the scholar using interpolations (adding new materials) and transpositions (rearranging the position of
words, often resulting is an entirely differently thought). These are the most difficult because most readers are that familiar with these type of changes.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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Hi, and appreciate your reply and concern! With me, the footnotes just discredit the Word because they indicate that the information (Scripture) listed should not be included. Also, many of the passages in the modern versions are changed by the scholar using interpolations (adding new materials) and transpositions (rearranging the position of
words, often resulting is an entirely differently thought). These are the most difficult because most readers are that familiar with these type of changes.
It was a shock to my system when I found out that we have no original works (except maybe one scrap) for any Scripture. All we have are copies and copies of copies which for centuries were copied by hand. Obviously, they are not all identical. So necessity dictates that we must choose among the variants which is most trustworthy. And transparency dictates that we must include footnotes where significant variants exist. How else could we do it?
 
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WordSword

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It was a shock to my system when I found out that we have no original works (except maybe one scrap) for any Scripture. All we have are copies and copies of copies which for centuries were copied by hand. Obviously, they are not all identical. So necessity dictates that we must choose among the variants which is most trustworthy. And transparency dictates that we must include footnotes where significant variants exist. How else could we do it?
It's ok of course that we are of a different understanding about this issue. In my opinion the most genuine translations are those from the Traditional Text base manuscript copies, because this base contains the majority of all available manuscript copies.

"The Majority Text is a compilation of readings found in the majority of the more than 5,800 Greek New Testament manuscripts that exist. However, there is no single manuscript or finite number that constitutes the "Majority Text" itself, but rather a specific set of readings chosen because they represent the consensus of the most numerous manuscripts within the Byzantine text-type tradition." -AI Google


"The term "minority text" can refer to various concepts, but for the Alexandrian text-type, which is a significant minority text, there are approximately 30 surviving Greek manuscripts, although this number is small compared to the vast number of Byzantine manuscripts, according to a Wikipedia article. These Alexandrian manuscripts represent a much smaller collection of evidence that differs from the majority texts of the New Testament.

"The Minority Text is not a single collection but a category representing the minority of Greek New Testament manuscripts that differ from the majority Byzantine tradition. There is no single fixed number of manuscripts because it's a concept rather than a specific edition, with estimates suggesting the minority texts represent about 20% less of the total manuscripts." -AI Google
 
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linux.poet

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MOD HAT ON

This thread has been moved from Soteriology DEBATE to Bibliology & Hermeneutics.

MOD HAT OFF

 
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The Liturgist

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It's ok of course that we are of a different understanding about this issue. In my opinion the most genuine translations are those from the Traditional Text base manuscript copies, because this base contains the majority of all available manuscript copies.

"The Majority Text is a compilation of readings found in the majority of the more than 5,800 Greek New Testament manuscripts that exist. However, there is no single manuscript or finite number that constitutes the "Majority Text" itself, but rather a specific set of readings chosen because they represent the consensus of the most numerous manuscripts within the Byzantine text-type tradition." -AI Google


"The term "minority text" can refer to various concepts, but for the Alexandrian text-type, which is a significant minority text, there are approximately 30 surviving Greek manuscripts, although this number is small compared to the vast number of Byzantine manuscripts, according to a Wikipedia article. These Alexandrian manuscripts represent a much smaller collection of evidence that differs from the majority texts of the New Testament.

"The Minority Text is not a single collection but a category representing the minority of Greek New Testament manuscripts that differ from the majority Byzantine tradition. There is no single fixed number of manuscripts because it's a concept rather than a specific edition, with estimates suggesting the minority texts represent about 20% less of the total manuscripts." -AI Google

It was a shock to my system when I found out that we have no original works (except maybe one scrap) for any Scripture. All we have are copies and copies of copies which for centuries were copied by hand. Obviously, they are not all identical. So necessity dictates that we must choose among the variants which is most trustworthy. And transparency dictates that we must include footnotes where significant variants exist. How else could we do it?

Your positions are not irreconciable. Many people with a knowledge of all three text types (Byzantine / Majority, Alexandrian / Minority and Western*) prefer the Byzantine text type due to the long history of continual use and ecclesiastical provenance, its similarity to the most respected ancient translations from the original Greek, the Syriac Peshitta and the Latin Vulgate, and concerns about whether the three Alexandrian manuscripts from which we get the Minority Text might have had Arian influences, while still others such as myself like and enjoy all three versions, recognizing the differences between them are very minor, and I myself find them more edifying than scandalizing.

What rather scandalizes me is the fact that the British Museum and the Russians never returned anything more than a token fragment of the Codex Sinaticus to the Eastern Orthodox Monastery of St. Catharine of Sinai from which the ancient manuscript was stolen by a Belgian adventurer in the 19th century.

*the Western text type is the most obscure and even more of a misnomer because aside from the Vetus Latina, the predecessor of the Vulgate its also tne type used in the Vetus Syra, the earliest translation of the four Gospels entirely into Classical Syriac Aramaic and not in the form of a mediocre Gospel Harmony like the Diatessaron of Tatian, who later became a heresiarch - a cult leader - following in the false tradition of the Ophites and Severians.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Most Bible studies will not involve one of the most significant issues of the times, which has to do with modern Bible translations. This issue of course cannot effect one’s salvation, but will effect one’s spiritual growth, not receiving all of God’s Word and being exposed to misleading information.

The majority of those who copied scriptural manuscripts (scribes) discarded a small amount of manuscripts that did not agree with the majority of extant copies. Two sources that were rejected for copying were the codex Vaticanus and the codex Sinaiticus. The codex Alexandrinus is included but is excessively missing much of the OT and NT, along with much decadence of page condition, torn leaves and lacunae on the edges of almost every page of Revelation.

These oldest manuscript copies just recently became available (19th century) for making translations. The Vaticanus was discovered in the Vatican library and remained perdu for fifteen centuries, until it was discovered on a shelf. The Sinaiticus was discovered at St. Catherine's Monastery at the foot of Mount Sinai in Egypt. A monk was burning some of the leaves (probably to keep warm) when Constantine von Tischendorf, a German biblical scholar, located portions of the manuscript there. He first found some leaves in a waste basket during his initial visit in 1844. A larger portion of the manuscript was discovered during his subsequent visit in 1859.

The recently found manuscript copies did not wear out like the majority of extant copies because they fell into disuse due to the fact that most of the scribes would not use them for copying purposes.



Totally Omitted Passages​

....
I see that you have “conveniently” omitted the very many places where the KJV omitted words, phrases, and whole sentences from the Bible. Starting from the beginning of the KJV, we find the first omission in Genesis 4:8,

8. And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Many centuries ago, the Jewish people began to esteem some writing more highly than others. The writings that they especially esteemed they began to circulate by making copies of them and passing them around. These Jewish people, like all people, were fallible and made coping errors. These errant copies were in turn copied and the people who copied them copied the errors and added errors of their own. Beginning late in the 5th century and continuing on through the 10th century groups of Jewish scholars and scribes known at the Masoretes began producing copies of the manuscripts that included diacritical marks in an effort to standardize the pronunciation of the words and added paragraph and verse divisions.

However, the Dead Sea Scrolls dating from about 150 BC – 75 AD, reveal that during this period there was no standardized text of the ancient Hebrew documents that eventually became our Old Testament. Furthermore, the Septuagint, a Greek Translation of the Hebrew documents made during the third and second centuries BC, was made from texts very different from the later Masoretic Text. By 70 AD, multiple versions of the Hebrew Scriptures existed. Moreover, the Peshitta (a Syriac translation made in the second century AD), the Samaritan Pentateuch (a Samaritan translation of the Pentateuch made in about 120 AD., and the Latin Vulgate (a Latin translation of the Bible made primarily by Jerome in the last part of the 4th century AD) all differ significantly from the Masoretic Text but partially agree with each other. The RSV and the NRSV take into consideration all of these texts in an effort to provide us with a translation as close to the original Hebrew writings as possible. For example, Genesis 4:8, in the KJV, reads,

8. And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

In the RSV, it reads,

8. Cain said to Abel his brother, “Let us go out to the field.” And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel, and killed him.

In the NRSV, it reads,

8. Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let us go out to the field.” And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel, and killed him.

The RSV and the NRSV include a textual note that accurately reads, “Sam Gk Syr Compare Vg: MT lacks [Let us go out to the field].” That is, the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Septuagint, and the Syriac Peshitta include the quote, the Latin Vulgate rewords the quote to “suum egrediamur foras” (let us go outside). The Masoretic Text, however lacks the quote. Because the genuineness of the quote is so well supported, it is included in the RSV and the NRSV. The NIV and the CEV include the quote (the CEV only loosely) and a partially incorrect note! The ESV and the NASB omit the quote but include an incorrect note! The RSV and the NRSV do not cost any more than the problematic translations—so why settle for anything less?
 
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The Liturgist

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I see that you have “conveniently” omitted the very many places where the KJV omitted words, phrases, and whole sentences from the Bible. Starting from the beginning of the KJV, we find the first omission in Genesis 4:8,

8. And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Many centuries ago, the Jewish people began to esteem some writing more highly than others. The writings that they especially esteemed they began to circulate by making copies of them and passing them around. These Jewish people, like all people, were fallible and made coping errors. These errant copies were in turn copied and the people who copied them copied the errors and added errors of their own. Beginning late in the 5th century and continuing on through the 10th century groups of Jewish scholars and scribes known at the Masoretes began producing copies of the manuscripts that included diacritical marks in an effort to standardize the pronunciation of the words and added paragraph and verse divisions.

However, the Dead Sea Scrolls dating from about 150 BC – 75 AD, reveal that during this period there was no standardized text of the ancient Hebrew documents that eventually became our Old Testament. Furthermore, the Septuagint, a Greek Translation of the Hebrew documents made during the third and second centuries BC, was made from texts very different from the later Masoretic Text. By 70 AD, multiple versions of the Hebrew Scriptures existed. Moreover, the Peshitta (a Syriac translation made in the second century AD), the Samaritan Pentateuch (a Samaritan translation of the Pentateuch made in about 120 AD., and the Latin Vulgate (a Latin translation of the Bible made primarily by Jerome in the last part of the 4th century AD) all differ significantly from the Masoretic Text but partially agree with each other. The RSV and the NRSV take into consideration all of these texts in an effort to provide us with a translation as close to the original Hebrew writings as possible. For example, Genesis 4:8, in the KJV, reads,

8. And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

In the RSV, it reads,

8. Cain said to Abel his brother, “Let us go out to the field.” And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel, and killed him.

In the NRSV, it reads,

8. Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let us go out to the field.” And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel, and killed him.

The RSV and the NRSV include a textual note that accurately reads, “Sam Gk Syr Compare Vg: MT lacks [Let us go out to the field].” That is, the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Septuagint, and the Syriac Peshitta include the quote, the Latin Vulgate rewords the quote to “suum egrediamur foras” (let us go outside). The Masoretic Text, however lacks the quote. Because the genuineness of the quote is so well supported, it is included in the RSV and the NRSV. The NIV and the CEV include the quote (the CEV only loosely) and a partially incorrect note! The ESV and the NASB omit the quote but include an incorrect note! The RSV and the NRSV do not cost any more than the problematic translations—so why settle for anything less?

This threat isn’t specifically about the KJV but rather about the question of the Majority Text vs. the ”Minority Text” (which I suppose is no longer the minority since the majority of recent Bible translations lean heavily into the Alexandrian text type; while sadly the fascinating Western text type used in the second century Vetus Latina, the original Latin translation of the New Testament (and of the Septuagint) and the Vetus Syra, the first Syriac translation of the four canonical Gospels as such (not counting the Diatessaron, a Gospel harmony composed by Tatian, who later became the leader of a heretical cult related to the Severians and other Syrian docetic-emanationist heretical sects).

I would also note that the Majority Text, as a broad category including the Byzantine text type and certain ancient translations from it such as the Peshitta, the Vulgate, various ancient Coptic, Georgian and Ge’ez New Testaments, and the traditional Church Slavonic Bible translated by Saints Cyril and Methodius, is not something accessible in English only via the KJV or NKJV; there are many other English language translations that are based upon it, such as the Geneva BIble, the Bishops’ Bible, various translations of translations, such as the Etheridge and Murdock translations of the Peshitta and the Challoner Douai-Rheims, and some of the more recent translations.

KJV-onlyism is no longer a thing on ChristianForums thankfully, and those of us who like the Byzantine Text Type or are members of churches that primarily use the Byzantine Text Type for liturgical purposes, which include among others all Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches, would resent a view that seeks to associate our preferred text type with the KJV in all cases.

Now I personally love the KJV; it is not my favorite English Bible but it’s easily in the no. 2 or no. 3 position. The NKJV I am a bit less thrilled with.
 
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concretecamper

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PrincetonGuy

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This threat isn’t specifically about the KJV but rather about the question of the Majority Text vs. the ”Minority Text” (which I suppose is no longer the minority since the majority of recent Bible translations lean heavily into the Alexandrian text type; while sadly the fascinating Western text type used in the second century Vetus Latina, the original Latin translation of the New Testament (and of the Septuagint) and the Vetus Syra, the first Syriac translation of the four canonical Gospels as such (not counting the Diatessaron, a Gospel harmony composed by Tatian, who later became the leader of a heretical cult related to the Severians and other Syrian docetic-emanationist heretical sects).

I would also note that the Majority Text, as a broad category including the Byzantine text type and certain ancient translations from it such as the Peshitta, the Vulgate, various ancient Coptic, Georgian and Ge’ez New Testaments, and the traditional Church Slavonic Bible translated by Saints Cyril and Methodius, is not something accessible in English only via the KJV or NKJV; there are many other English language translations that are based upon it, such as the Geneva BIble, the Bishops’ Bible, various translations of translations, such as the Etheridge and Murdock translations of the Peshitta and the Challoner Douai-Rheims, and some of the more recent translations.

KJV-onlyism is no longer a thing on ChristianForums thankfully, and those of us who like the Byzantine Text Type or are members of churches that primarily use the Byzantine Text Type for liturgical purposes, which include among others all Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches, would resent a view that seeks to associate our preferred text type with the KJV in all cases.

Now I personally love the KJV; it is not my favorite English Bible but it’s easily in the no. 2 or no. 3 position. The NKJV I am a bit less thrilled with.
Virtually all published textual critics of the New Testament strongly favor the Alexandrian text-type over the Byzantine text-type. Even Harry A. Sturz, one of the very few published defenders of the Byzantine text-type unashamedly prefers the Alexandrian text-type over the Byzantine text type.

Sturz, Harry A. The Byzantine Text-Type & New Testament Textual Criticism. Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1984.

Moreover, I have here in my study many recent commentaries on the Greek text of each of the books of the New Testament [including full volume commentaries on Philemon by Fitzmyer (Roman Catholic), 154 pages, 2000, Barth and Blanke (Reformed), 578 pages, 2000; and Nordling (Lutheran), 431 pages, 2004] and in every case the Greek text being commented upon is an eclectic text very similar to the Alexandrian text-type. This is not due to any preference on my part but rather it is due to the fact that recent commentaries on the Greek text of the books of the New Testament using the Byzantine text-type, or a little more broadly the Majority Text, do not exist.

Having said the above, I shall also say that the very large majority of supporters of the Majority Text are also supporters of the Byzantine text-type and the King James Version. Moreover, the arguments for the KJV are essentially the same as those used for the Majority Text. Furthermore, the translations of the Bible based upon Byzantine text-type for the New Testament base the translation of the Old Testament almost exclusively upon the Masoretic Text. And, of course, this is true of the New King James Version. Moreover, the New King James Version totally omits (not so much as a footnote) as does the King James Version, the Biblical sentence, “Let us go out to the field.” And as we shall see, this is only one of many omissions in the Masoretic Text.

The NRSV has been quoted hundreds of thousands of times in academic publications. The NKJV is ignored as not worth bothering with in academic publications—and Christians should not bother with it either.
 
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timewerx

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It was a shock to my system when I found out that we have no original works (except maybe one scrap) for any Scripture. All we have are copies and copies of copies which for centuries were copied by hand. Obviously, they are not all identical. So necessity dictates that we must choose among the variants which is most trustworthy. And transparency dictates that we must include footnotes where significant variants exist. How else could we do it?

What's even more shocking is that Jesus promised the Holy Spirit leading us to all truths. The Bible did not exist yet when Jesus said those things. But not surprising either that Jesus already knew the Bible will come centuries later.

Yet, Jesus said nothing about studying the Bible nor the scriptures after He leaves for the Father. He made explicit commands like "Love one another", "believe in the One He sent", "The Spirit will come".

Given the massive influence of the Bible since its arrival centuries later, Jesus made no mention of it. It would have avoided much ambiguity if Jesus said the Holy Spirit will ALSO guide you in studying the scriptures. But we have nothing of that sort.

Topping it off, Jesus even criticized the study of scriptures, Even pointing out errors in scriptures!

Ironically, it's all there in the Canon Bible! Even the Bible says it's not the guide!

We've been fooled. I just wish I had known this a lot sooner.
 
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timewerx

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Where is this in the bible, please?
John 5:16-18 - Jesus critique of Sabbath even saying, He and the Father is always at work

John 5:39 - searching the scriptures presuming to find eternal life in it.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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What's even more shocking is that Jesus promised the Holy Spirit leading us to all truths. The Bible did not exist yet when Jesus said those things. But not surprising either that Jesus already knew the Bible will come centuries later.

Yet, Jesus said nothing about studying the Bible nor the scriptures after He leaves for the Father. He made explicit commands like "Love one another", "believe in the One He sent", "The Spirit will come".

Given the massive influence of the Bible since its arrival centuries later, Jesus made no mention of it. It would have avoided much ambiguity if Jesus said the Holy Spirit will ALSO guide you in studying the scriptures. But we have nothing of that sort.

Topping it off, Jesus even criticized the study of scriptures, Even pointing out errors in scriptures!

Ironically, it's all there in the Canon Bible! Even the Bible says it's not the guide!

We've been fooled. I just wish I had known this a lot sooner.
I agree with you on everything except Jesus did not point out errors in Scripture. I'll comment on that by replying to the side thread your comment created.

But on the meat of your argument, you are right that the Bible does not point to itself, but to God. If we "do what the Bible says", we go to God for wisdom, truth, love, conviction, correction, and comfort. Too many people have knowing the Bible as their "end in mind" when the Bible points to a greater truth - knowing the God of the Bible.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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John 5:16-18 - Jesus critique of Sabbath even saying, He and the Father is always at work
This was not pointing out errors in Scripture, but faulty understandings of it as it applied to Jesus in that He is the Lord of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:8). And He also pointed out their hypocrisy in Luke 13:15-16 because even they understood that Scripture did not prohibit all work on the Sabbath.
John 5:39 - searching the scriptures presuming to find eternal life in it.
This too was criticism of practices, not the Scriptures. The irony He is pointing out is that the Scriptures which they poured over pointed to Him coming to save us from our sins. Then when the promised One came and stood in their very presence, they refused to go to Him to get the life that their Scriptures said would be gained from Him. This should not be seen as evidence that the Bible is flawed, but as evidence to support your contention that the Bible (including the OT) points us to Christ. The fact that some people miss the message is not an indictment of the Bible.
 
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timewerx

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This was not pointing out errors in Scripture, but faulty understandings of it as it applied to Jesus in that He is the Lord of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:8). And He also pointed out their hypocrisy in Luke 13:15-16 because even they understood that Scripture did not prohibit all work on the Sabbath.

Jesus did not give any specifics on what work can be done on Sabbath apart from "good works", that good works means it would still be good works if one on other days.

"Lord of the Sabbath" means if Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, is he going to be a tyrant about it or merciful? Did din't seem to care what you do on that day as long as it's not evil / malevolent.
 
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ChubbyCherub

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John 5:16-18 - Jesus critique of Sabbath even saying, He and the Father is always at work

John 5:39 - searching the scriptures presuming to find eternal life in it.
Thank you
 
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The Liturgist

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Virtually all published textual critics of the New Testament strongly favor the Alexandrian text-type over the Byzantine text-type.

Only among published textual critics who are members of Western churches (especially your remark about the KJV) such as Anglicans, Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians, et cetera.

Among the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, those 300 million Eastern Christians who routinely get martyred but whose input is usually ignored by textual scholars despite being the churches that actually still use the Greek and Syriac languages, among others, there is a strong preference for the Byzantine text type not directly linked to the KJV (in the diaspora, the Eastern Orthodox prefer the KJV, but only for the New Testament, since its OT is based on the Masoretic, and not the LXX, but the Oriental Orthodox do not, desiring newer translations that are easier to read). But in their original languages the Greeks prefer the manuscripts carefully curated over the centuries by their church, which are mostly Byzantine, with the noted exception of the Codex Sinaiticus, which was stolen, a point we shall get to momentarily, and the Syriac Orthodox prefer the Western Peshitto (with the missing NT chapters 2 John, 3 John, Jude, 2 Peter and the Apocalypse) supplied from the 6th century translation of Mor Thomas of Harqel).

There is an important moral issue here:, if we look at the actual churches of Alexandria, Greek Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox, and if we look at the monastery where Codex Sinaiticus was kept until a Belgian adventurer stole it in the 19th century (to this date the fact that the British still have not returned to St. Catharine’s monastery their half to the monastery is a scandal on a par with the continued retention of the Elgin Marbles, the Star of Africa diamond and certain other objects essentially looted by the British Empire; luckily for them the Greek Orthodox monks are less likely than for example the governments of various regimes to try to prosecute UK institutions like the British Museum for receiving stolen property, which is absolutely what happened in the case of Codex Sinaiticus, but this raises an interesting question -

In what respect is it moral for Western Bible publishers to base their texts on what amounts to a looted manuscript? Now, granted, had the manuscript not been stolen, we know that the monks at St. Catharine’s would not have denied them access to write a copy - the theft occurred while the Belgian adventurer who expropriated it was supposedly doing just that, but I would argue that profiting from the Codex Sinaiticus has now become morally dubious, and at the very least, Zondervan and other publishers of Bibles that reference Sinaiticus ought to be making very significant monetary donations to St. Catharine’s Monastery in Sinai, for example, to fund an expension of the monastery’s clinic that provides health services to the lcoal Bedouin tribes (thus ensuring the monastery’s continued safe existence, for in the central part of Sinai, it is the only Christian church in a large radius; also a small number of the Bedouins are Christian, most are not, but the monks remain on good terms with nearly all of them through monastic hospitality).

+

That being said for my part, as a member of the Eastern church I don’t have a problem with the Alexandrian text type, provided its not used exclusively, although really, the great opportunity that’s being missed here is with the Western Text Type. The fact most textual critics continue to ignore it is nothing short of a travesty, in my opinion - we have here a version that is both different from A and B, yet also was in sufficiently diverse use to be the basis for what are literally the two oldest surviving translations of the New Testament or the most important portion thereof into another language, the Vetus Latina and Vetus Syra. And yet how many English language BIbles do we have translated exclusively from the Western text type? I think one incomplete translation based only on Vetus Latina…
 
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WordSword

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I see that you have “conveniently” omitted the very many places where the KJV omitted words, phrases, and whole sentences from the Bible. Starting from the beginning of the KJV, we find the first omission in Genesis 4:8,

8. And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
Hi, but I'm not certain of what you're saying. The KJV has not omitted this verse, or am I misunderstanding you. Thanks for the reply!
 
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