Kirk Cameron Takes Heat for His Annihilationist View on Hell

1Tonne · Dec 31, 2025

zelosravioli said:
Isaiah 41:14 'Do not fear, you worm Jacob, you people of Israel; I will help you” declares the LORD “and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel'
Psalm 22:6 'But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by everyone, despised by the people. But I am a worm and not a man'
Job 25:6 'less a mortal, who is but a maggot- a human being, who is only a worm!" In comparison, people are maggots; we mortals are mere worms'

It is only in these three verses above that humans are described as worms. And the text is clear that is all the verses are using worm metaphorically for something lowly, mortals, despised, scorned, insignificant - nothing in these three verses above are concerned with the worms destructive devouring work is associated with death.

Where in the following worm verse' below its clear the worms destructive devouring work is the point, and the destruction is associated with death and the grave:

Job 7:5-10 'My flesh is clothed with worms and a crust of dirt, My skin hardens and oozes. “My days are swifter than a weaver’s shuttle, And they come to an end without hope. Remember that my life is a mere breath; My eye will not see goodness again. 8 “The eye of him who sees me will no longer look at me; Your eyes will be on me, but I will not exist. 9 “When a cloud vanishes, it is gone; In the same way one who goes down to Sheol does not come up. 10 “He will not return to his house again, Nor will his place know about him anymore' ... 16 “I waste away; I will not live forever. Leave me alone, for my days are only a breath. 21 For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will search for me, but I will no longer exist”
Job 17:13-14 “If I hope for Sheol as my home, I make my bed in the darkness; If I call to the grave, ‘You are my father’; To the worm ‘my mother and my sister’
Job 21:26 'Side by side they lie in the dust, and worms cover them both. But both are buried in the same dust, both eaten by the same maggots. They lie down ...'
Job 24:19-25 'As Sheol snatches those who have sinned 'The womb forgets them, the worm feasts on them; the wicked are no longer remembered but are broken like a tree. Their own mothers will forget them. The worm feeds sweetly until he is no longer remembered'.. 24 They are exalted a little while, then they are gone; Moreover, they are brought low, and like everything they are gathered up; Like the heads of grain they wither. 25 “Now if it is not so, who can prove me a liar, And make my speech worthless?”
Isaiah 51:6-8 'Raise your eyes to the sky, Then look to the earth beneath; For the sky will vanish like smoke, And the earth will wear out like a garment And its inhabitants will die in the same way. But My salvation will be forever, And My righteousness will not fail... 8 “For the moth will eat them like a garment; Yes, the worm will eat them like wool. But My righteousness will be forever, And My salvation to all generations.”

You’re right that many passages use worms in connection with physical decay and death. No one disputes that worms literally consume bodies in the grave. But that actually strengthens, not weakens, the point about imagery and context.

Those Job and Isaiah passages are describing what happens to bodies in this world, humiliation, decay, and mortality. They are observational, poetic descriptions of death as we see it. None of them are about final judgment, Gehenna, or eschatological punishment.
Jesus, however, is doing something different in Mark 9:48. He deliberately takes grave imagery and intensifies it:
-the fire is not quenched
-their worm does not die
In real graves, worms do die once decay is finished. Bodies stop being eaten. That’s precisely why Jesus’ wording goes beyond normal decomposition. He is not describing the ordinary grave process everyone already knows, He is contrasting it.

So yes, worms often symbolize decay and death. But Jesus’ point only works because ordinary worms and fires do end. Saying “their worm does not die” signals something beyond normal physical decay, not merely more of the same.
Context determines meaning. Grave imagery used ordinarily in Job does not control how Jesus uses it eschatologically in Gehenna.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Dec 31, 2025

1Tonne said:
Your view is that Jesus was telling the truth because the worms reproduce and the offspring live on today.

So, you choose to look at Mark 9:46 in a literal view for a worm but then when it comes to Psalms using the same word, you choose to look as it metaphorically? Why do you make a distinction?

So, you believe that it is a literal biological worm.

By your logic, David would have thought he was literally a worm. Psalm 22:6 says, “I am a worm, not a man.” Yet no one reads David as physically becoming a worm, it’s clearly metaphorical, expressing humiliation and contempt.
Jesus in Mark 9:48 says, “their worm does not die” (skolex), possessive language. He is not talking about worms in general surviving through reproduction. That argument fails: offspring are not the same individual, so it cannot convey ongoing judgment. Adding that meaning is eisegesis, not exegesis. You are adding to what Jesus said so that your theory can fit. That is not good.
If “their worm” were just other worms somewhere, the phrase becomes trivial. Jesus’ point only works if the worm figuratively represents something personal to the judged that does not end. Context, not lexicons, resolves the meaning.
You need to stop imposing your own view onto Jesus’ words. (So, not reproduction as Jesus never said that)

No, it’s not grasping at straws. I asked to highlight a contradiction in your view. You claim Jesus’ words are true because the worms “live on,” yet you also admit the fire was not everlasting. By your own reasoning, Jesus’ imagery would then be inaccurate. That’s why it must be figurative, not literal, He is communicating ongoing judgment, not literal worms.

I think that you have missed my view.
I believe that in Mark 9:46 Jesus was quoting from Isaiah 66:24. In Isaiah there is no mention of Gehenna but of worms that last forever and fire that is not put out. Isaiah is imagery of the judgement of God on His enemies. So, within this, the worm that does not die is the actual enemies of God who will burn forever.
We see in Psalms 22:6, the word worm was used to describe not literal worms but disgust on a human (a human being a soul). Today we would probably use different wording such as "where the scum does not die, and the fire is never quenched."

Yes, this has been covered earlier in the thread. In the Bible, “destruction” often carries the sense of ruin, devastation, or being rendered powerless, not necessarily annihilation. It refers to something being thoroughly damaged, spoiled, or rendered ineffective. Context determines whether it emphasizes permanent removal or ongoing ruin.
In many passages, the wicked are “destroyed,” meaning they are cut off from God and their lives are ruined, rather than simply ceasing to exist. This aligns with the broader biblical teaching that punishment involves separation from God and the ongoing consequences of sin, not merely nonexistence.

LOL, no YOU are saying that is what I am saying! The word IS a LITERAL biological worm. It is not a person like you suggest. It can be a literal worm consuming flesh in a dump and it can also be a description regarding how someone views themselves...CONTEXT MATTERS! In Psalms he is not viewing himself as an actual worm but he FEELS like one. How many times must I explain something SOOO simple to you? In the other passages, the worm is NOT the person, the corpse. The worm decomposes the person. The fire destroys the body. If you need to look at the worm as an agent of destruction, that is fine. And yes, you ARE grasping at straws... הַמֵּבִין יָבִין

Yeshua HaDerekh · Dec 31, 2025

1Tonne said:
You’re right that many passages use worms in connection with physical decay and death. No one disputes that worms literally consume bodies in the grave. But that actually strengthens, not weakens, the point about imagery and context.

Those Job and Isaiah passages are describing what happens to bodies in this world, humiliation, decay, and mortality. They are observational, poetic descriptions of death as we see it. None of them are about final judgment, Gehenna, or eschatological punishment.
Jesus, however, is doing something different in Mark 9:48. He deliberately takes grave imagery and intensifies it:
-the fire is not quenched
-their worm does not die
In real graves, worms do die once decay is finished. Bodies stop being eaten. That’s precisely why Jesus’ wording goes beyond normal decomposition. He is not describing the ordinary grave process everyone already knows, He is contrasting it.

So yes, worms often symbolize decay and death. But Jesus’ point only works because ordinary worms and fires do end. Saying “their worm does not die” signals something beyond normal physical decay, not merely more of the same.
Context determines meaning. Grave imagery used ordinarily in Job does not control how Jesus uses it eschatologically in Gehenna.

Finally you admit it...then you go on and add your silliness to it. Plain and simple. Everyone alive when Yeshua was alive knew about Gehenna and the constant fires and worm infested rubbish piles. They could smell it every day of their lives. He was using what happens there as a comparison that EVERYONE would and did understand.

1Tonne · Dec 31, 2025

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
The word IS a LITERAL biological worm.

Once again, "their" worm if burned would die. To get around this you stretch what Jesus said to say that the worm has offspring, and it is the offspring that lives forever.
Did the offspring grow legs and run to get away from the flames? LOL

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
It can be a literal worm consuming flesh in a dump and it can also be a description regarding how someone views themselves...CONTEXT MATTERS!

Context does matter. That is why I pull you up on how the worms live forever. The view that it is the offspring is incredibly weak. Embracingly so.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
In Psalms he is not viewing himself as an actual worm but he FEELS like one.

In Mark 9:46, why would Jesus not be describing how he feels about His enemies who He looks upon with disgust?

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Finally you admit it...then you go on and add your silliness to it.

Sorry if you are getting angry.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Everyone alive when Yeshua was alive knew about Gehenna and the constant fires and worm infested rubbish piles. They could smell it every day of their lives. He was using what happens there as a comparison that EVERYONE would and did understand.

They did know of Gehenna, but they did not know that "their worm" would not die. Everyone at Jesus time had the understanding that worms could not outrun the fire and that the worms could not survive it.

Also, when Jesus spoke the words in Mark 9:46, no one in His audience would have thought, “Ah yes, He must mean the worms reproduce, so their lineage continues.” That idea is entirely modern and foreign to the text.
What they would have known is simple: worms cannot survive fire, nor outrun it. So when Jesus says “their worm does not die” alongside “the fire is not quenched,” the audience would immediately recognize that He is not speaking literally.
In Jewish thought, calling a person a “worm” was a known expression of disgust, humiliation, and worthlessness. With that background, the meaning is clear: Jesus is using familiar imagery to communicate the seriousness and permanence of judgment, not to describe biological worm reproduction in a rubbish dump.
In other words, the original audience would not have been confused, they would have understood that Jesus was speaking figuratively, not giving a lesson on refuse disposal or worm lifecycles.

I can see we are going in circles which make the discussion pointless.
To be honest, I do not mind if you think that the offspring live forever. People often go down rabbit holes or conspiracy theories and then once there, they cannot see their way out. But in reality, it does not affect me.

Blessings. I think I am done. Cheers

Yeshua HaDerekh · Dec 31, 2025

1Tonne said:
Once again, "their" worm if burned would die. To get around this you stretch what Jesus said to say that the worm has offspring, and it is the offspring that lives forever.
Did the offspring grow legs and run to get away from the flames? LOL

Context does matter. That is why I pull you up on how the worms live forever. The view that it is the offspring is incredibly weak. Embracingly so.

In Mark 9:46, why would Jesus not be describing how he feels about His enemies who He looks upon with disgust?

Sorry if you are getting angry.

They did know of Gehenna, but they did not know that "their worm" would not die. Everyone at Jesus time had the understanding that worms could not outrun the fire and that the worms could not survive it.

In Jewish thought, calling a person a “worm” was a known expression of disgust, humiliation, and worthlessness. With that background, the meaning is clear: Jesus is using familiar imagery to communicate the seriousness and permanence of judgment, not to describe biological worm reproduction in a rubbish dump.

In other words, the original audience would not have been confused, they would have understood that Jesus was speaking figuratively, not giving a lesson on refuse disposal or worm lifecycles.

I can see we are going in circles which make the discussion pointless.
I think I am done. Cheers

So what that worms die?! What is this obsession you have about this LOL?! You COMPLETELY miss the point! There were worms there CONSTANTLY. They reproduced! You are acting like when one body was burned ALL the worms died in the dump LOL! The only explanation that is weak is YOURS! Everyone knew there were ALWAYS worms and ALWAYS fires there. I am not getting angry...just frustrated that you can not and will not understand something so simple You were done a while ago...

walter45 · Dec 31, 2025

If we consider the words in each scripture, as equally valuable to our understanding, could it be possible that some of the words are figurative? And other words are not figurative?

Eternal Torment - Revelation 14:11, 20:10; Matthew 25:46
Will not see life - John 3:36, Matthew 7:14
Destroy both soul and body in hell - Matthew 10:28
Will disappear nowhere to be found - Psalm 37:10, 37:35-36; Isaiah 41:12
Eternal Destruction - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
Detestable things to God. nor did it enter my mind.- Deut 12:31; Jeremiah 7:31; 2 Kings 17:17

zelosravioli · Jan 1, 2026

1Tonne said:
You’re right that many passages use worms in connection with physical decay and death. No one disputes that worms literally consume bodies in the grave. But that actually strengthens, not weakens, the point about imagery and context.

Those Job and Isaiah passages are describing what happens to bodies in this world, humiliation, decay, and mortality. They are observational, poetic descriptions of death as we see it. None of them are about final judgment, Gehenna, or eschatological punishment.
Jesus, however, is doing something different in Mark 9:48. He deliberately takes grave imagery and intensifies it:
-the fire is not quenched
-their worm does not die
In real graves, worms do die once decay is finished. Bodies stop being eaten. That’s precisely why Jesus’ wording goes beyond normal decomposition. He is not describing the ordinary grave process everyone already knows, He is contrasting it.

So yes, worms often symbolize decay and death. But Jesus’ point only works because ordinary worms and fires do end. Saying “their worm does not die” signals something beyond normal physical decay, not merely more of the same.
Context determines meaning. Grave imagery used ordinarily in Job does not control how Jesus uses it eschatologically in Gehenna.

'Those Job and Isaiah passages are describing what happens to bodies in this world, humiliation, decay, and mortality... None of them are about final judgment .." (1Tonne post #201)

Wrong. Job and Isaiah use the word Sheol - Sheol is more than simply the grave:

Job 7:9 'In the same way one who goes down to Sheol does not come up...'
Job 17:13 'If I hope for Sheol as my home..."
Job:24:19 'As Sheol snatches those who have sinned ..."

Sheol is a 'place' not a grave. It seems all the 'dead' go to the 'same place' which is called Sheol (Later the idea of a separate place for the righteous develops, as in Abrahams bosom). These verses are speaking of the 'abode of the dead' were they are waiting future judgment.

Sheol developed by the time of the Kings and the Prophets to mean the unseen realm of the dead. Notice Sheol is often referred to as the lowest part, and "He brings down to Sheol and brings up" Although a body is placed in the ground, Sheol denotes some place much deeper and bigger for the dead. Sheol was understood as the abode of the dead, it is not the place of bodies, it is where the dead 'spirits' go...

Isaiah 5:14 'The great and the lowly and all the drunken mob will be swallowed up. Therefore Sheol has enlarged its appetite and opened its mouth beyond measure, And Jerusalem’s splendor, her multitude, her noise of revelry, and the jubilant within her, descend into it.
Isaiah 7:11 'Ask a sign of the LORD your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven." "Ask for a sign from the LORD your God...'
Isaiah 14:9 “Sheol below is excited about you, to meet you when you come; It stirs the spirits of the dead for you, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.... 15 place of the dead, down to its lowest depths. But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit. But you will be brought down to Sheol'
Isaiah 38:10 'In the middle of my days I must depart; I am consigned to the gates of Sheol for the rest of my years. I said, "In the prime of my life ...
1 Samuel 2:6 '..but raises others up. The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. The LORD brings death and gives life; He brings down to Sheol ...'

In the following verses Sheol is a place. The idea of the underworld of the dead was clear physical bodies that go to the realm of the dead, but the spirits of the dead people:

Deuteronomy 32:22 'For a fire is kindled in My anger, And burns to the lowest part of Sheol, And consumes the earth with its yield, And sets on fire the foundations of the mountains'
1 Samuel 2 “The LORD puts to death and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and brings up"
Isaiah 14:11-15 ‘Your pride and the music of your harps Have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you And worms are your covering' ... 15 Nevertheless you will be brought down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit'

Hebrew Topical Lexicon : Sheol
Sheol or shol {sheh-ole'}; from sha'al; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates - grave, hell, pit. ... Sheol is the unseen realm of the dead, the destination of both righteous and wicked until the final resurrection. It is described as below the earth, always receiving, and never satisfied (Proverbs 27:20). (Biblehub)

'Those Job and Isaiah passages are describing what happens to bodies in this world, humiliation, decay, and mortality... None of them are about final judgment .." (1Tonne post #201)

The Isaiah passages are often speaking of future Israel, as well as the end of times. The future and final eschatological events are all through Isaiah. The ultimate redemption of Israel is practically the point of Isaiahs book:

Isaiah 51:3-8 'Indeed, the LORD will comfort Zion; He will comfort all her ruins. And He will make her wilderness like Eden, And her desert like the garden of the LORD ... 'Raise your eyes to the sky, Then look to the earth beneath; For the sky will vanish like smoke, And the earth will wear out like a garment And its inhabitants will die in the same way. But My salvation will be forever, And My righteousness will not fail... 8 “For the moth will eat them like a garment; Yes, the worm will eat them like wool. But My righteousness will be forever, And My salvation to all generations.” ... 11 And the redeemed of the LORD will return and come to Zion with joyful shouting, And everlasting joy will be on their heads. They will obtain gladness and joy, And sorrow and sighing will flee away'

Isaiah is 'the' book of the New heavens and the New Earth (Isaiah 65:17). The judgment wrath and destruction texts of Isaiah are some of our foundational texts of future judgement and restoration - and Isaiah 66 is the absolute climax of all the Prophets talk of the final judgment and new earth ... it is not talking of bodies in a grave...

Isaiah 66:15 'For behold, the LORD will come in fire, And His chariots like the whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For the LORD will execute judgment by fire And by His sword on humanity, And those put to death by the LORD will be many... “For just as the new heavens and the new earth, Which I make, will endure before Me,” declares the LORD, “So will your descendants and your name endure. 23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from Sabbath to Sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the LORD. 24 “Then they will go out and look At the corpses of the people Who have rebelled against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be extinguished; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”

Notice 'they will go out and look At the corpses of the people' after the Judgment, and apparently in the New Earth. But note the corpses are dead, and they are not squirming or writhing in conscious pain either.

Most of Isaiah, like most prophetic biblical descriptions, is a metaphoric description of a future reality, using imagery of real things we can understand to describe the unseen. What seems to be the point of the Isaiah 66:24 passage is that: For all future in the new earth, it will be remembered that Gods judgment on sin happened. That it was horrible, and that the smoke goes up forever as a 'reminder' of Gods righteous judgments on mans sin.

This seems to be the reason for why God went through all mankinds time of sinning on earth - so that no one in the next world can say 'Well if man was allowed to live without God they would be wonderful'. And since that theory was tested in this world, there will be a memorial to the judgment on sin - 'the smoke that goes up forever'. So it will be remembered in the next world that 'No that didn't work'.

walter45 · Jan 4, 2026

If anyone has any advice please let me know, this seems like a reasonable conclusion to me, what is your advice please?

Would you consider it wrong of me if I considered these words 100% Accurate?
"Destroy both soul and body in hell" - Matthew 10:28
"Will disappear nowhere to be found" - Psalm 37:10, 37:35-36; Isaiah 41:12
"Eternal Destruction" - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
"the wicked will be cut off from the earth" - Proverbs 2:22
"Will not see life" - John 3:36
"Eternal punishment" - Matthew 25:46
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love". - 1 John 4:8 (NIV):

And these words are Symbolic?
"The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" - Revelation 14:11 [ How is this painful? "smokey torment ascending forever and ever"? ]
"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Revelation 20:10, James 3:6
[ At Revelation 20:10 it sounds like it's talking about the Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet, doesn't it to you? ]

walter45 · Jan 4, 2026

I cannot fully explain this subject maybe someone else can?

"Destroy both soul and body in hell" - Matthew 10:28
"Will disappear nowhere to be found" - Psalm 37:10, 37:35-36; Isaiah 41:12
"Eternal Destruction" - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
"the wicked will be cut off from the earth" - Proverbs 2:22
"Will not see life" - John 3:36
"Eternal punishment" - Matthew 25:46
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love". - 1 John 4:8 (NIV):

"The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" - Revelation 14:11
"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Rev 20:10
"The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell." - James 3:6

Since each one of these Scriptures are valuable to our understanding, how do we include each one of these Scriptures in our Conclusion?

zelosravioli · Jan 4, 2026

walter45 said:
I cannot fully explain this subject maybe someone else can?
"Destroy both soul and body in hell" - Matthew 10:28
"Will disappear nowhere to be found" - Psalm 37:10, 37:35-36; Isaiah 41:12
"Eternal Destruction" - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
"the wicked will be cut off from the earth" - Proverbs 2:22
"Will not see life" - John 3:36
"Eternal punishment" - Matthew 25:46
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love". - 1 John 4:8 (NIV):
"The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" - Revelation 14:11
"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Rev 20:10
"The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell." - James 3:6

Since each one of these Scriptures are valuable to our understanding, how do we include each one of these Scriptures in our Conclusion?

Aside from the 1 John and James verses, all of the verses are saying the same thing.

Although verses like Psalm 37 seem to simply be speaking of the earthly observation of the wicked dead '... you will look carefully for his place and he will not be there' and 'Then he passed away, and behold, he was no more' . It might even be thought that this Psalm is speaking of Sheol - the place of the dead, but the context seems to be overwhelmingly full of perish, vanish, eliminated, and destroyed. So it does not seem the psalm is speaking about the existence of souls somewhere, but the elimination of them:

Psalm 37:1 'Do not get upset because of evildoers, Do not be envious of wrongdoers. 2 For they will wither quickly like the grass, And decay like the green plants... 20 But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the LORD will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish—like smoke they vanish away... 22 For those blessed by Him will inherit the land, But those cursed by Him will be eliminated... 28 And does not abandon His godly ones; They are protected forever, But the descendants of the wicked will be eliminated... 34 And He will exalt you to inherit the land; When the wicked are eliminated, you will see it... For the person of peace will have a future. 38 But wrongdoers will altogether be destroyed; The future of the wicked will be eliminated'

We cannot be sure if the hearer of this psalm understood the psalm and promises to be primarily for this life, or promises for the life to come. This is debatable, primarily because the doctrine of a future Israel and a resurrection of the righteous is generally spoken of 'poetically and metaphorically'. How ancient Israel understood the future promises, or state of the dead, isn't known. As the doctrine was not quite affirmed technically, but it was certainly alluded to at the time of David. Either way the doctrine of a future resurrection of the righteous, and a future damnation of the sinner, was known by God, from the beginning of time.

If we want to dissect this psalm: it seems the righteous live far past the 'perishing' of the evildoers: 37:18 'And their inheritance will be forever... 27 So that you will dwell forever... 28 They are protected forever... 29 And dwell in it forever'. The 'future' promise was not: just that the evildoers would disappear from the land, but vanish from the future also: 'They vanish—like smoke they vanish away' and 'the wicked are eliminated' and 'you will see it, and wrongdoers will altogether be destroyed'.

So, if the wicked are not eliminated or vanished in the future, then the psalmist would not be telling the truth. The promised future is forever, so it wouldn't make sense to have the evildoers still existing somewhere in the future. Or worse, show up in the future at some time. Even if the evildoers were just being held in Sheol, or someplace, and then moved somewhere else, they would still would be 'existing' somewhere. They have 'not' perished (according to the Eternal Torment theory). If someone wants to argue: 'Well they were not 'seen' because they were in Gehenna' - That would be the same as saying they were not altogether destroyed nor eliminated. It seems the psalmist couldn't be any more emphatic than: 'The future of the wicked will be eliminated'.

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Matthew 10:28 “And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy (apollumi) both soul (psuché) and body in hell (Gehenna)’

apollumi: To destroy, to perish, to lose
psuché: Soul, life, self, inner being
geenna: Gehenna, hell

Note the parallel verse of Matthew, in Luke, leaves out the word 'soul' But it seems the Matthew verse (above) defines the 'you' of Luke as being 'soul and body' :

Luke 12:4 "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who, after you have been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him"

Verbatim it would seem the earthly body is thrown into hell also. But it seems Jesus is implying 'everything' about 'you' the person is thrown in. Either way, the body and soul, or just the soul, are thrown in. And although the idea of Gehenna, or hell, is used, this is consistent with CI to believe the sinners are punished in hell. Whether they perish or are destroyed in Gehenna itself, or destroyed when Gehenna and death are thrown into the Lake of fire, is unknown. But the verses are consistent in saying all the wicked: perish, vanish, are eliminated, and destroyed'

It can be verified that destroy or apollumi - means - to destroy, to perish, to lose:

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
622 apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end. (Helps Lexicon)

On its own Matthew 10:28 really verifies Conditional Immortality.
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2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 "... when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day"

2 Thessalonians is describing the events of the Last Day, as depicted all through scripture. All the last day verses new and old testament alike can be understood as being that same Final Great Day Of Judgement. It is described as well throughout Isaiah, and specifically here in Isaiah 34,

Isaiah 34:2-10 'For the LORD’S anger is against all the nations, And His wrath against all their armies. He has utterly destroyed them,He has turned them over to slaughter. 3 So their slain will be thrown out, And their corpses will give off their stench, And the mountains will be drenched with their blood. 4 And all the heavenly lights will wear away, And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll; All its lights will also wither away ... For the LORD has a day of vengeance, A year of retribution for the cause of Zion. 9 Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch.10 It will not be extinguished night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever'

The same Final Judgement Day and event are below in Chapter 51 and 66. Isaiah 66 being the verse quoted by Jesus in Mark 9:48. This is the same event as in Daniel 12:2 and Matthew 25:46. All these verses have to be considered together when interpreting any text concerning the Last Day events, as there are many verses, but they are all talking about same Great and Final Judgement. I put the finality of these events below in red:

Daniel 12:2 'And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt'

Isaiah 51:6-11 ‘Raise your eyes to the sky, Then look to the earth beneath; For the sky will vanish like smoke, And the earth will wear out like a garment And its inhabitants will die in the same way… 8 “For the moth will eat them like a garment; Yes, the moth will eat them like wool. But My righteousness will be forever, And My salvation to all generations.”

Isaiah 66:15 'For behold, the LORD will come in fire, And His chariots like the whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For the LORD will execute judgment by fire And by His sword on humanity, And those put to death by the LORD will be many... “For just as the new heavens and the new earth, Which I make, will endure before Me,” declares the LORD, “So will your descendants and your name endure. 23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from Sabbath to Sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the LORD. 24 “Then they will go out and look at the corpses of the people who have rebelled against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be extinguished; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind”

Below are the same verses from above, just condensed. Notice the theme is that this is all: destruction, rolled up, wither away, burning pitch, not be extinguished, will vanish, smoke will go up forever, will eat them, corpses, all of which seems to be 'everlasting' :

2 Thessalonians 1:9 'These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction'
Daniel 12:2 'And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt'
Isaiah 34:4-10 'And all the heavenly lights will wear away, And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll; All its lights will also wither away ... 9 its land will become burning pitch.10 It will not be extinguished night or day; Its smoke will go up forever'
Isaiah 51:6-8 For the sky will vanish like smoke, And the earth will wear out like a garment And its inhabitants will die in the same way… 8 “For the moth will eat them like a garment;
Isaiah 66:24 “Then they will go out and look at the corpses of the people who have rebelled against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be extinguished; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind”

Jipsah · Jan 7, 2026

Tom8907 said:
He does not appear to comprehend the seriousness of sin.

Death penalty not enough , huh?

Tom8907 · Jan 9, 2026

Jipsah said:
Death penalty not enough , huh?

This is sin against an infinite, thrice Holy God, not an earthly crime.

Jipsah · Jan 9, 2026

Tom8907 said:
This is sin against an infinite, thrice Holy God, not an earthly crime.

Finite creatures can't commit infinite crimes - or anything else for that matter. Your lot is saying that God's hatred is infinite.

Zceptre · Jan 9, 2026

Jipsah said:
Finite creatures can't commit infinite crimes - or anything else for that matter. Your lot is saying that God's hatred is infinite.

Job 22:5 (KJV)
Is not thy wickedness great? and thine iniquities infinite?

Zceptre · Jan 9, 2026

Matthew 25:46

NIV
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

NLT
“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”

ESV
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

BSB
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

BLB
And these will go away into eternal punishment; but the righteous into eternal life."

KJV
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

NKJV
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

---

Unless eternal means something different from eternal, some people have got some changes to make in their perceptions.

God didn't write any riddles on this as far as I'm concerned and I don't think anyone should need it explained if they seek the truth.

walter45 · Jan 9, 2026

Zceptre said:
Matthew 25:46

NIV
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

NLT
“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”

ESV
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

BSB
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

BLB
And these will go away into eternal punishment; but the righteous into eternal life."

KJV
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

NKJV
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

---

Unless eternal means something different from eternal, some people have got some changes to make in their perceptions.

God didn't write any riddles on this as far as I'm concerned and I don't think anyone should need it explained if they seek the truth.

zelosravioli · Jan 10, 2026

Zceptre said:
Matthew 25:46 NIV
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Unless eternal means something different from eternal, some people have got some changes to make in their perceptions.
God didn't write any riddles on this as far as I'm concerned and I don't think anyone should need it explained if they seek the truth.

Matthew 25:46 is Jesus quoting Daniel 12:2

Daniel 12:2 '... At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book will be delivered. 2 And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Then the wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness will shine like the stars forever and ever.…'

Daniel 12:2 has everlasting (Olam) referring to contempt (Deraon) - the word in Hebrew is Deraon means: Contempt, reproach, abhorrence. Deraon is only used one other place in the Hebrew: Isaiah 66:24 - where it is translated as abhorrence, loathsome, disgusting, or horror.

Isaiah 66:24 "... their fire will never be quenched, and they will be a horror to all mankind.”

The word Greek word kolasis in Matt 25:46 can mean punishment or torment, true, but Jesus is quoting Daniel 12:2. So it’s only fair to consider the words may mean ‘contempt and shame’ since those are the words of the verse Jesus is quoting, remember it is likely Jesus spoke Aramaic while he was speaking here. The writer, or Matthew, is using a Greek word kolasis to translate Jesus' Aramaic quote of Daniels words daraon and cherpah (Daniel chap 12 likely written in Hebrew).

Also it needs to be considered that Daniel 12:2, as well as Matt 25:46 are both antithetical parallelisms. It is a literary device 'very' common 'all throughout' scripture, and needs to be considered and understood how parallelisms can be misunderstood, as well as understood. Especially when building a whole extreme doctrine on this one and only verse that could imply such eternal torment, rather than possibly punishment or contempt.

Scripture says the punishment for sin is death, and death is forever. So the judgment and punishment for sin is death, and ‘death’ is forever. THAT is clear, and much more consistent with all Gods judgments and the statements of death and finality - than is the ’conscious eternal torture’ of humans for eternity.

Note also Matt 25:41 proceeds 46 and describes the same event as 2 Thes. 1:7-10:

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels'

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 '... and to grant relief to you who are oppressed and to us as well. This will take place when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in blazing fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power'

The eternal fire of Matthew 25 is the same fire of Revelation 20 and 21 (below), that was 'prepared for the devil and his angels'

Revelation 20:10 'And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever'

20:10 says: 'the devil, beast and the false prophet... will be tormented day and night forever " It never says humans are 'tormented day and night forever'. Nor is 'the second death' spoken of the devil, but 'the second death' is used thrice in reference to the humans thrown in - the same humans of Matthew 25:46 - but the fire is the second death

Revelation 21:8 'But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.”

Revelation 20:6 'Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power... Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire'

Yes, the punishment is for eternity, because it leads to The second death, and The second death is final. Death is the definition of final - it cant be more clear. The wages of sin is death. Death is the punishment - as promised in the garden of Eden. Death is eternal, because it is final.

Malachi 4:1 “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace, when all the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble; the day is coming when I will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of Hosts. “Not a root or branch will be left to them”

Jipsah · Jan 10, 2026

Zceptre said:
Job 22:5 (KJV)
Is not thy wickedness great? and thine iniquities infinite?

Poetic hyperbole. Nothing a human can do is infinite.

Jipsah · Jan 10, 2026

Zceptre said:
Matthew 25:46

NIV
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

NLT
“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”

ESV
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

BSB
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

But your doctrine assumes that both have eternal life, one good and one bad. In your beliefs, everyone has eternal life by default Scripture repeatedly says otherwise.

Zceptre said:
BLB
And these will go away into eternal punishment; but the righteous into eternal life."

One is eternally alive, one is eternally dead.

Zceptre said:
KJV
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Yeah, we just covered that . the wages of sin is DEATH. The Gift of God is eternal life. One lives forever, one is dead for eternity.

Zceptre said:
NKJV
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Yep. One lives, one dies, in any translation you prefer.

Zceptre said:
---

Unless eternal means something different from eternal,

Some live eternally, some are dead eternally. Not everybody has eternal life. That a Gift of God. Y

Zceptre said:
some people have got some changes to make in their perceptions.

And some need to understand that death is always eternal, but eternal Life is a gift from God.

Zceptre said:
God didn't write any riddles on this as far as I'm concerned and I don't think anyone should need it explained if they seek the truth.

SarahsKnight · Jan 10, 2026

Zceptre said:
God didn't write any riddles on this as far as I'm concerned

I agree. I really don't imagine God would mince words or create a riddle for us mortal human readers of the Bible to have to dive deep to solve when it comes to a subject as seemingly important as what is the ultimate fate of both believers and unbelievers. ... And that is exactly why I reject the eternal torment and immortal souls doctrine. While it may be the traditional (at least since Augustine's time) and popular doctrine when it comes to the subject of what happens after death, it just has to many verses in the Bible that I really feel I would have to tap dance around and do mental gymnastics on in order to make them fit into the traditional view rather than seeing their plainly pointing towards conditional immortality. While conditional immortality has very few "difficulty" verses to have to explain away, by comparison. I go with the abundance of evidence in Scripture, and conditional immortality simply has WAY more evidence going for it than the traditional eternal torment view. I absolutely do not condemn anyone for taking the traditional view due to it being preached from the pulpit of like 90% of churches all their lives, mind you, so long as they believe in Jesus Christ as Son of God and both His death on the cross and resurrection, that we all may have eternal life with Him and forgiveness of our many sins. The exact nature of hell should not be a central and essential part of our faith.

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