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God requires sinless perfection to enter His kingdom

fhansen

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If one willfully, (that is without remorse), wantonly, persistently engage in a lifestyle of sin, they are not in the Vine. One cannot be in the Vine without the Vine producing some fruit.
Yes, IOW our whole status of justice/righteousness depends on our nearness to God because He's the very source of any authentic human righteousness (and this is why Adam's disobedience amounted to his alienation from righteousness: he now became a sinner) and faith is the doorway back to that fellowship. We can, also, walk away from it, walk away from Him; we must pick up our cross and follow daily.

And here we must be very careful. No one can see into another's heart to know what is taking placing within them. Only God can. Things may be taking place there between the person and God that are not being seen on the outside or in the behavior. We are not all alike. Some have deeper struggles or find themselves in circumstances that make instant "deliverance" from the sin or sins more difficult. It may look on the outside that what they are doing is without remorse, but inwardly they have come to hate the sin. And know this too, that every time we have conquered one sin or even a whole bunch of them, we find other's lurking in our thought patterns and motives, that we did not even recognize as sin. God is faithful to fulfill his promise to conform us more and more to the image of Christ. And we cannot know what he is doing in and with another. We must not trample on God's work by standing in harsh judgment of the person's salvation according to what we see on the outside.
And I agree with all this-God judges by the heart, which He knows far better than we do. But we cannot use that as an excuse to ignore sin and its possibility of still earning us-believers- death. Scripture instructs believers to help bring their brother back from sin and the death it would earn him-so we must acknowledge it when we see it. I'd rather risk standing in harsh judgment of the peson's salvation than watch them perish-that would not be loving my brother.
 
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Arial-byGrace

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Yes, IOW our whole status of justice/righteousness depends on our nearness to God
Our whole status of justified depends on Christ, not our works. Good works are the fruit of that union. Justified is a legal status. We are justified through faith (Eph 2:8-9; Romans 3:28, 5:1; Ga;2:16 etc.). "Nearness" to God is so subjective as to be meaningless. A person cannot be any nearer to God that to be in union with Christ. So, what do you mean by "nearness"?
We can, also, walk away from it, walk away from Him; we must pick up our cross and follow daily.
If justification is a legal declaration of being justified before God (and it is), and that justification had nothing to do with us or anything we did or do, but only rests on our trust in the person and work of Christ (faith) alone for salvation; and if Jesus purchased that justification and his imputed righteousness with his blood as our substitute; and is it was once forever (as it so states in Heb.) then how can we walk away from him? And where then, is the meaning of John 6:39?
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

But we cannot use that as an excuse to ignore sin and its possibility of still earning us-believers- death.
Did I say or imply that we should ignore sin? Does anything I did say mean that it is ok to ignore sin?
Scripture instructs believers to help bring their brother back from sin and the death it would earn him-so we must acknowledge it when we see it.
Just make sure you take the log our of your own eye first. (Not a personal remark but paraphrasing Jesus' discussion on that very subject.) And remember you don't have to say everything you think.
I'd rather risk standing in harsh judgment of the peson's salvation than watch them perish-that would not be loving my brother.
Well, that is a common view of those who think we are in charge of salvation and a person's being saved, instead of God.

Correcting a sin and helping a brother in a battle with sin is not the same thing as judging his salvation. Only God can do that so, it would be tantamount to standing in God's place. Which is itself a sin. Scripture tells us how to deal with the sin in our bother.

Galatians 6:1

Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

Sin is defined as missing the mark or aiming at the wrong target---and the holiness of God is the standard of measure. The NT is full of instruction on how Christians are to behave, not just outwardly but inwardly, in our thought life, attitudes, motives, in every aspect of our life, home, work. family. Self-examination will find them lurking around every corner in every one of us. Or we could pray in all sincereity, as David did, "Show me my hidden sins, that I may walk in your ways."

The only thing that saves any of us is that once we have been given to Christ through faith, those sins that we still wrestle with cannot take us out of his hands. We have actually been taken out of one kingdom (darkness) and brought into the kingdom of the Son he loves (Col 1 I believe). We have been adopted as sons and daughters and God does not un-adopt his children and his children have no power to un-adopt themselves.
 
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fli

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Our whole status of justified depends on Christ, not our works. Good works are the fruit of that union. Justified is a legal status. We are justified through faith (Eph 2:8-9; Romans 3:28, 5:1; Ga;2:16 etc.). "Nearness" to God is so subjective as to be meaningless. A person cannot be any nearer to God that to be in union with Christ. So, what do you mean by "nearness"?

Salvation and justification are done by Jesus and is a free gift. However, God does require something from us.

If justification is a legal declaration of being justified before God (and it is), and that justification had nothing to do with us or anything we did or do, but only rests on our trust in the person and work of Christ (faith) alone for salvation; and if Jesus purchased that justification and his imputed righteousness with his blood as our substitute; and is it was once forever (as it so states in Heb.) then how can we walk away from him? And where then, is the meaning of John 6:39?
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Without a spiritual mind we will not accept His discipline.

Hebrews 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives." 7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. NKJV

He does expect us to accept His discipline. Verse 6 He scourges every son He receives. Verse 8 if you are without discipline, you are illegitimate. Illegitimate children have no inheritance in heaven. For a person to accept His discipline it requires a person to have a spiritual mind.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. NKJV

If a person does not have a spiritual mind they cannot please God. They will not subject themselves to God's discipline.

John 10:4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers." NKJV

A person with a spiritual mind recognizes Jesus' voice as Lord and will follow Him. Without a spiritual mind a person will not give up their sins as they love worldly pleasures more than what Jesus offers.

37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
All those the Father gives to Jesus will recognize His voice and follow Him
 
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Arial-byGrace

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Without a spiritual mind we will not accept His discipline.

Hebrews 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives." 7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. NKJV

He does expect us to accept His discipline. Verse 6 He scourges every son He receives. Verse 8 if you are without discipline, you are illegitimate. Illegitimate children have no inheritance in heaven. For a person to accept His discipline it requires a person to have a spiritual mind.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. NKJV

If a person does not have a spiritual mind they cannot please God. They will not subject themselves to God's discipline.

John 10:4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers." NKJV

A person with a spiritual mind recognizes Jesus' voice as Lord and will follow Him. Without a spiritual mind a person will not give up their sins as they love worldly pleasures more than what Jesus offers.
What is your point? I never said we would not be disciplined. That is not being kicked out of the house.
All those the Father gives to Jesus will recognize His voice and follow Him
You left out the crucial point. "and I will never cast them out." There was also another verse you did not address.
 
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fhansen

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Our whole status of justified depends on Christ, not our works. Good works are the fruit of that union. Justified is a legal status. We are justified through faith (Eph 2:8-9; Romans 3:28, 5:1; Ga;2:16 etc.). "Nearness" to God is so subjective as to be meaningless. A person cannot be any nearer to God that to be in union with Christ. So, what do you mean by "nearness"?
Communion with God is the heart and soul of the new covenant/gospel-and the primary difference between the old and the new. It's what man is made for and what he's lost, corrupted, sick, dead without: existing in a basic state of injustice defined as alienation from God, a state sometimes called "original sin". It's the reason Jesus came: to effect reconciliation with God and is much more than a legal status but a real one where man is changed, given a new heart and spirit. He may now walk in the Spirit, with God's life within, filled with the love that's been given him (Rom 5:5). And that's why good works are the fruit.
If justification is a legal declaration of being justified before God (and it is), and that justification had nothing to do with us or anything we did or do, but only rests on our trust in the person and work of Christ (faith) alone for salvation; and if Jesus purchased that justification and his imputed righteousness with his blood as our substitute; and is it was once forever (as it so states in Heb.) then how can we walk away from him? And where then, is the meaning of John 6:39?
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
And this was the error of the Reformers where they made justification into a mere legal accounting transaction instead of the basis for and means of renewed true justice in man, instead of a change to actual righteousness which, again, is intrinsic to man being in union with God. No righteousness=no union=no salvation.

The error introduces a disassociation in the mind between being jusitified and actually being just, between the need for man to be and to live righteously in order to be saved, or not, In the true understanding, obedience is a result of that nearness to God, of the reconciliation that is realized as we turn to Christ in faith which, itself, is the first righteous step, in response to grace. for man. But that's not some kind of permanent, irreversible event that cannot be walked away from. Again, the human will is involved here, and then continues to be so during a journey that lasts to the end of our lives, hopefully in union with God throughout that time.

For 15 centuries the idea that a person was and would remain permanently saved without regard to how they lived their lives would’ve been considered to be totally absurd. But that’s the question that the Reformers introduced with Sola Fide-and the idea that you’re floating here. With it, the question of sin and its consquences becomes obscure and is often just plain avoided. Can/will a child of God sin? If so, how much or what gravity of sin, if any, means that a) he was never a child of God to begin with, or b) he's compromised his salvation? Or is he guaranteed to overcome sin-sufficiently?-by the end of the day?

As far as John's passage, God knows just who are being referred to there, who belong to Him, while we don't know with that kind of 100% certainty. We can have a strong level of assurance based on knowing God's will and evidence of good fruit, evidence of love in our lives but we can't predict if we'll end up being good soil, or whether or not we'll persevere to the end. There are far too many contingies and examples and warnings to believers that are also listed in the bible regarding falling away and the potential consequences.
Did I say or imply that we should ignore sin? Does anything I did say mean that it is ok to ignore sin?
And that's the question. If justification and therefore salvation is only a matter of a forensic declaration, and has nothing to do with what we do or don't do, without regard to our unrighteousness or righteousness, then does it really even matter what the person thinks about sin?
Just make sure you take the log our of your own eye first. (Not a personal remark but paraphrasing Jesus' discussion on that very subject.) And remember you don't have to say everything you think.
Um, sorry, I was just citing Scripture there, not my personal opinon. Are you saying that no one should ever attempt to help another who's ensalved by sin? Or are you assuming some kind of special insight about me, specifically? BTW, I've walked with drug addicts through long processes of overcoming addiction. Was I being judgemental in insinuating and recognizing their need for help? Was I being audacious?
Well, that is a common view of those who think we are in charge of salvation and a person's being saved, instead of God.

Correcting a sin and helping a brother in a battle with sin is not the same thing as judging his salvation. Only God can do that so, it would be tantamount to standing in God's place. Which is itself a sin. Scripture tells us how to deal with the sin in our bother.
"My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins." James 5:9

The only thing that saves any of us is that once we have been given to Christ through faith, those sins that we still wrestle with cannot take us out of his hands. We have actually been taken out of one kingdom (darkness) and brought into the kingdom of the Son he loves (Col 1 I believe). We have been adopted as sons and daughters and God does not un-adopt his children and his children have no power to un-adopt themselves.
Nonsense. Anyone can return to darkness. God's in the business of creating something very great and noble and grand, something like Himself in minature, with His humans-and that necessarily involves our wills, weak as they may be especially at first. He's not looking to produce holy automatons in any case.
 
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fli

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What is your point? I never said we would not be disciplined. That is not being kicked out of the house.

You left out the crucial point. "and I will never cast them out." There was also another verse you did not address.

Yes, you are correct. Jesus will never cast anyone off.

John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. NKJV

The Father is the vinedresser. When a person first comes in Jesus will start convicting them. If they are not following Jesus' convictions there is no way they can produce fruit.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me. NKJV

The Father told Jesus that His love for a believer was dependent on the believer's obedience to Jesus.

2 Timothy 2:11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. 12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him, He also will deny us. 13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. NKJV


If the first time it happens the believer does not have enough faith to quit the addiction to sin, but loves Jesus enough to let God kill him, God will call them to heaven.

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. NKJV

God the Father is not a created thing. God is very precise in using the right words to explain His truth.
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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As long as we keep believing in Jesus, we are sinless.
Unfortunately it's not a one sided story.

Paul claimed to be the chief of sinners in the present tense statement of "I am" the chief of sinners. 1 Tim. 1:15

Sins are not attributed to people to start with, their state of belief notwithstanding. 2 Cor. 5:19

But the ugly fact is sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15 and the sins of the devils transpire in

EVERYONE via evil lawless thoughts that DEFILE us all, Mark 7:21-23

So, who is "THE SINNER" in these equations? It's not people. There's only one direction left to look to
 
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fli

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Unfortunately it's not a one sided story.

Paul claimed to be the chief of sinners in the present tense statement of "I am" the chief of sinners. 1 Tim. 1:15

Sins are not attributed to people to start with, their state of belief notwithstanding. 2 Cor. 5:19

Here is another scripture that proves the only sin that has ever been attributed to people is not believing God. Satan called God a liar in the garden and Adam believed Satan instead of God.

Romans 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. NKJV

We are all doing sinful works while in Jesus. But the only opinion that matters is God's. As long as we are in Jesus, God says we are not sinners.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. NKJV

God says that all believers in Jesus have the righteousness of Jesus.

Romans 4:6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin." NKJV

Not only do we have the righteousness of Jesus, our works do not change that righteousness. Romans 8: 10 Anyone in Jesus is dead. The law does not apply to dead people as they have been judged when they died. In Jesus everyone has been judged when God judged Jesus.

There are some people who claim to believe in Jesus and do not believe they are righteous. They believe they need to do some works of the law to be righteous. Romans 10:4 if you believe in Jesus you cannot get any righteousness by doing works of the law. Galatians 2:20 those who try to earn righteousness by works of the law have set aside the grace of God. That means by working the law for righteousness you are showing that you do not have faith in Jesus. Hebrews 4:1-3 if you have faith in Jesus you have entered His rest.

God wants us to act like His children and not do sinful things. We do this to show our love and be good witness, not to be righteous.
 
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Arial-byGrace

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The Father is the vinedresser. When a person first comes in Jesus will start convicting them. If they are not following Jesus' convictions there is no way they can produce fruit.
Does that mean that they must follow all of his perfection in righteousness all of the time and all at once. Even if they have not yet learned what they are? Or do not recognize a conviction for what iit is? Does that mean they must only produce the fruit of righteousness in order to produce the fruit of righteousness? Your statement is quite vague and entirely subjective.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me. NKJV

The Father told Jesus that His love for a believer was dependent on the believer's obedience to Jesus.
That is textually inaccurate. The Father is not speaking, Jesus is. He is describing the relational order withn covenant fellowhip, not a condition that creates the Father's love.

It confuses evidence of ove with cause of love. In John's gospel obedience is the fruit of love, not the price paid to obtain love. You have the verse saying "If anyone obeys me, then God will begin to love him."

What it actually says is "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word---".

The logical order is first, love for Christ, second, obedience as expression of that love, third, covenant communion ("we will come---and make our home with him").

John teaches God lvoes before belief is exercised (John3:16; that "not that we have loved God, but that he loved us" (1John 4:10); "We love because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19).

Your interpretation treats God's love as: conditional, earned, reactive. That presents the insufficiency of Christ, adding our works to his works in order for his work to be effectual.
2 Timothy 2:11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. 12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him, He also will deny us. 13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. NKJV


If the first time it happens the believer does not have enough faith to quit the addiction to sin, but loves Jesus enough to let God kill him, God will call them to heaven.
Your interpretation is completely alienated from the scripture itself. It is entirely made up and nowhere stated or implied in Scripture. It is also a very dangerous thing to present as truth. A person cannot just quit an addiction. An addiction is not in the will, it is a physical and/or emotional condition. And the struggle with it is a process between God and that person if they are a believer. That struggle, however long it takes and even if it is never resolved in this lifetime, is serving a purpose. Even Paul had things of the flesh that were never fully resolved and learned to submit to God's declaration in the matter. "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." (2 Cor 12:9).
Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. NKJV

God the Father is not a created thing. God is very precise in using the right words to explain His truth.
Then why do you deny these words by saying that we can lose our salvation and it is dependent on our obedience?
 
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Arial-byGrace

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Communion with God is the heart and soul of the new covenant/gospel-and the primary difference between the old and the new. It's what man is made for and what he's lost, corrupted, sick, dead without: existing in a basic state of injustice defined as alienation from God, a state sometimes called "original sin". It's the reason Jesus came: to effect reconciliation with God and is much more than a legal status but a real one where man is changed, given a new heart and spirit. He may now walk in the Spirit, with God's life within, filled with the love that's been given him (Rom 5:5). And that's why good works are the fruit.
You are almost in agreement with Scripture. A person is change, and that through he new birth of John 3. It is that new birth that takes us out of the condemnation of being born in Adam in the natural birth, and places us under a new headship, Christ. And it is the person and work of Christ, through his substitution, ransom, and propitiation that makes justification before God possible. And yes, justification means that we are reconciled to God.

However, if that were the end of the story of redemption, we would be made perfect at the point of conversion. in actuality---that is never committing sins. It is obvious that we still do sin and anyone who says they do not sin is a liar according to Scripture. That is what makes justified a legal ruling and term. In the first place, it is legal language. We are declared justified because the work of Christ has been applied to us. Our sins have met their just penalty in him and are no longer attributed to us (ransom). We are reconciled to God because of the Judge's declaration of "Justified!". And it is real. It does not have to be and cannot be, one or the other. It is both. One (justified) does not happen without the other("reconciled). And "reconciled" does not happen without the other ("justified").
And this was the error of the Reformers where they made justification into a mere legal accounting transaction instead of the basis for and means of renewed true justice in man, instead of a change to actual righteousness which, again, is intrinsic to man being in union with God. No righteousness=no union=no salvation.
Well, (presumptuous statement of knowing more than the Reformers aside), they didn't do that. Justification was never treated as something "mere". The word is used frequently in the NT pertaining to the work of Christ. It states that in Christ one is justified through faith. So what does it mean to be justified in God's sight? You are simply confusing categories--a logical fallacy argument. Justified in Scripture has nothing to do with justice in man. And the Reformers never treated it as such. Neither do they treat it as actual righteousness because that would fly in the face of both empirical evidence and the internal evidence of the Bible itself.

It isn't actual righteousness---it is a standing before God. It is God's justice against the believer's sin that Jesus satisfied on the cross (ransom for our release from bondage by substitution). It is the just Judge who pronounced the penalty of sin to be death and the wrath of God, satisfied with the work of the Son, declaring "Justified!" when a person is united to Christ and his work through faith.

It is not our actual righteousness that allows us to come before his throne or that justifies us----it is Christ's righteousness imputed (not infused) to us. We are counted as righteous by our union with Christ.
The consummation of the story of redemption has not yet come. That happens when Christ returns. That is when we become immortal and incorruptible---actually righteous
 
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fli

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Does that mean that they must follow all of his perfection in righteousness all of the time and all at once. Even if they have not yet learned what they are? Or do not recognize a conviction for what iit is? Does that mean they must only produce the fruit of righteousness in order to produce the fruit of righteousness? Your statement is quite vague and entirely subjective.

I never said that we have to obey all the laws. In my first post I explained how we are perfect: because God imputes Jesus' righteousness to us.

When we first enter Jesus because we believe in Him, God has forgiven all our sins, granted us repentance and we are in Jesus. Being in Jesus, God declares us to be dead. A dead person is not subject to the law and cannot sin. When Jesus died, God judged Jesus to be entirely sinless. Since we died with Jesus God has judged us to be entirely sinless. God requires a person to be perfect to be in His kingdom and we are. Even though we are violating the law (in the flesh we cannot help it) we are sinless as the law does not apply to us. God will not impute sin to us.

Revelation 2:18 "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, 'These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19 "I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. NKJV

Verse 21 Jesus gave her time to repent. How long from the time she came in to the time John wrote this we do not know. Jesus started shortly after she came in. I also suspect He taught her of the advisability of agreeing with Him, having a spiritual mind.

Jezebel is sinless as she is dead physically in Jesus. Jesus is convicting her of the sins He wants her to quit. Now she was in sexual sin prior to coming in and God has forgiven her of those sins as well as granting her repentance. That means if she dies under discipline she was not in sin. He is not imputing any sins to her. But to keep this body growing as He wants she must not be allowed to continue. Jesus has laid out His plan to end her sin. She has indicated that she does not want to repent (quit) her sin. Jesus tells her he will first make her sick. This sickness will end in her death if she does not quit all the sinful sexual immorality. If she dies in discipline she will go to heaven. She will have put her sins to death by the Spirit

If Jezebel does not have a spiritual mind, she will not quit the sinful activity she loves. She will no longer have hope that she wants to go to heaven if she must quit her sexual activity. Colossians 1: 4-5 since she has lost hope in Jesus, she no longer has faith in Jesus and is no longer in Him.

If, on the other hand, she is willing to give up her sin, she starts doing those things that Jesus tells her to do. If she feared withdrawal she could opt to die. Jesus could lift her sin immediately without her suffering or He could make her go through a growing process of losing the sin. Regardless, all the time she is in Jesus she is sinless. Since she has started walking in the Spirit she has shown that she is a son of God. From now on she has to stay in the spirit to continue living physically.

God commands her and us that we must continue to obey His 2 commandments.

1 John 3:20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: (1) that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and (2) love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NKJV

Because God orders us to keep believing in Him, we must be able to lose salvation. The second commandment we are to keep is to love our fellow Christians. Anything we do to another Christian we are doing it to Christ. God wants us to continue adding to our love for Him. This Jesus can deal with this commandment through discipline. The first commandment if we quit believing in Him, it is over.
 
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Arial-byGrace

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The error introduces a disassociation in the mind between being jusitified and actually being just, between the need for man to be and to live righteously in order to be saved, or not,
In a previous post I showed that there was no error with the Reformers. The error was in your understanding of Reformed theology on justification. Above is a major error in understanding what the doctrine of justification even is. It has nothing to do with man being just. It has to do with who God is. He is just. He does not simply possess justice, as humans possess attributes. He IS just. So, when he declared that the one who sins shall die and after death face the wrath of God---that was a just verdict. If he IS just, then anything less than that verdict would make him unjust. Therefore, in order for him to extend mercy without compromising justice; and since man is incapable of changing himself into anything but a sinner; the only way to redeem any would be for another to substitute himself in their place, offer himself as a ransom for their release, paying the debt himself; and satisfy the wrath of God against their sins (propitiate). That is what Jesus did. Justice and mercy kissed at the cross. God can now be both just and merciful towards those who are in the substitute Redeemer through faith.
In the true understanding, obedience is a result of that nearness to God, of the reconciliation that is realized as we turn to Christ in faith
Which is exactly what the Reformers taught. Obedience is the fruit of the union, not the cause of the union.
which, itself, is the first righteous step, in response to grace. for man. But that's not some kind of permanent, irreversible event that cannot be walked away from. Again, the human will is involved here, and then continues to be so during a journey that lasts to the end of our lives, hopefully in union with God throughout that time.
It isn't a response to grace, it is grace. It is permanent and it is irrevocable because it is Christ who did it, and the Holy Spirit who seals us in him. But yes, it is only a first step. We grow in righteousness as we learn from his word what righteousness is. That is sanctification by the Holy Spirit. Scripture tells us it is God working in us. God down to us, not us up to God. He begins the work and he completes the work. You just have another category mistake. Responsibility is man's duty before God, but that does not override his sovereignty.
For 15 centuries the idea that a person was and would remain permanently saved without regard to how they lived their lives would’ve been considered to be totally absurd.
That is something you need to provide evidence for. What the Bible teaches is that if someone is saved, they will remain permanently saved and if they lived their lives with no evidence of being in Christ---no fruit of the vine being produced-- they were simply professing faith, giving mental assent to it but had not been regenerated by God. IOW they still had the stoney heart of their nature. hey also acknowledged as well we all should, that just because someone isn't save right now, does not mean they never will be.
But that’s the question that the Reformers introduced with Sola Fide-and the idea that you’re floating here.
I am guessing at this point that you are Catholic.
With it, the question of sin and its consquences becomes obscure and is often just plain avoided.

How so? I would like you to show me anything of a direct quote from a Reformer or anyone of Reformed theology in the past or present who has ever obscured the question of sin and its consequences or avoided it. What you say there is a blatantly untrue. On the contrary:

“The doctrine of justification is this: that we are pronounced righteous without works, purely by grace. This doctrine humbles man, terrifies him, and shows him his sin.”
Lectures on Galatians (1535)

“The doctrine of justification is lost when works are mingled with faith. Then Christ is obscured, sin is made small, and consciences are destroyed.”
Smalcald Articles

“The papists accuse us of forbidding good works. We do not forbid them, but we forbid men to trust in them.”
Against Latomus (1521) Martin Luther

“They {Rome} charge us with making void good works. But we destroy them only in the matter of justification, where they obscure the grace of Christ and weaken the conscience.”
Institutes, III.17.1

“So long as men are persuaded that they can merit righteousness by works, the gravity of sin is diminished.”
Institutes, III.12.4

“No one has ever truly humbled himself until he has been stripped of all confidence in works.”
Institutes, III.12.8 Calvin

“The charge that justification by faith alone minimizes sin is precisely backward. It is Rome’s doctrine that weakens sin by making it curable through human merit.”
Faith Alone (1995)
“If sin can be partly atoned for by my works, then it is not deadly. But if justification requires the imputed righteousness of Christ alone, then sin must be utterly catastrophic.”
Faith Alone R.C. Sproul

“Justification by faith alone does not make sin safe; it makes it lethal. It says that nothing short of the blood of the Son of God could deal with it.”
— Sermon: Justification by Faith Alone (Romans series)
“If faith alone justifies, and that faith unites us to Christ, then the power that forgives sin is the same power that kills it.”
Future Grace (1995) John Piper

“The Roman charge that justification by faith alone encourages sin ignores the Protestant insistence that faith is inseparable from regeneration.”
Concise Theology
“Justification by faith alone presupposes a view of sin so serious that only a complete transfer of righteousness can answer it.”
Knowing God J.I. Packer
 
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fhansen

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It has nothing to do with man being just.
No, that IS the error-the error that shows that I understood them quite well when I maintained that they introduced "a disassociation in the mind between being jusitified and actually being just, between the need for man to be and to live righteously in order to be saved, or not," That has never been Christianity- but is a novel idea. The early Christians and later understood that righteousness is only possible due to man's connection to the Vine, and that said righteousness is still necessary under the new covenant in order to enter heaven. It all relies on that most vital and just connection. Faith/righteousness/justification/salvation cannot and must not be separated. More on this later. But briefly this is how it works: the new covenant is about a new and more direct and intimate relationship with God, a relationshp that man was created for and which is entered into and realized via faith. Faith in God is essentially what Adam denied in Eden as he failed to heed God and His authority. God was no longer his God, IOW; man became his own "god" from that point on. So the NC prophecy of Jer 31:33-34:

"I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,

from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord."


And from within that relationship the previous verse can be worked out by Him:
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts."

That is to be justifed, unto eternal life.
 
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fhansen

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You are almost in agreement with Scripture. A person is change, and that through he new birth of John 3. It is that new birth that takes us out of the condemnation of being born in Adam in the natural birth, and places us under a new headship, Christ. And it is the person and work of Christ, through his substitution, ransom, and propitiation that makes justification before God possible. And yes, justification means that we are reconciled to God.

However, if that were the end of the story of redemption, we would be made perfect at the point of conversion. in actuality---that is never committing sins. It is obvious that we still do sin and anyone who says they do not sin is a liar according to Scripture. That is what makes justified a legal ruling and term. In the first place, it is legal language. We are declared justified because the work of Christ has been applied to us. Our sins have met their just penalty in him and are no longer attributed to us (ransom). We are reconciled to God because of the Judge's declaration of "Justified!". And it is real. It does not have to be and cannot be, one or the other. It is both. One (justified) does not happen without the other("reconciled). And "reconciled" does not happen without the other ("justified").
The legal language is metaphor. Reconciliation, itself, is renewed relationship with God, not just a change in status before Him. It certainly involves forgiveness but isn't limited to that. It's the same as with relationships in this life. If I've offended someone and they forgive me, acceptance has been offered, a change is initiated and invited-and if I respond then reconciliation takes place and the relationship can bloom anew. In the case of man and God the relationship is essential: just, vital, life-giving. It's about what we love, for our own highest good, and what we love first above all else-and this is why the first commandments in the decalogue are what they are and why the greatest commandment is what it is. To the extent that we're perfected in that love, obedience flows of its own accord.

And, yes, this perfection will not fully occur in this life but that path is nonetheless the path we must be on, the Way, now with God instead of on our own, apart from Him. And that "withness", that union, that fellowship, means the life of grace, His life in us. But it's still a struggle, because I'm not yet perfected. I'm not yet convinced that the Way is the only way, the best way, and I still possess the freedom to go another way, my way, the wrong way, the world's way; I can reject the gift, the gift of Himself to me, foolish as that may be especially after spending some time here in this world exiled from Him with all that's implied in that. But I can, I can walk away just as I can walk away from the relationship with my human friend. It's a process, a journey that we're asked to persevere in with the gifts, the grace, given throughout whatever time we're given on this earth; it's not a one time event, which is why salvation is spoken of in Scripture as past, present, and future: been saved, being saved, will be saved.
Well, (presumptuous statement of knowing more than the Reformers aside), they didn't do that. Justification was never treated as something "mere".
Well, they may have thought they weren't treating it as "mere" but they were compared to what it actually is.
The word is used frequently in the NT pertaining to the work of Christ. It states that in Christ one is justified through faith. So what does it mean to be justified in God's sight? You are simply confusing categories--a logical fallacy argument. Justified in Scripture has nothing to do with justice in man. And the Reformers never treated it as such. Neither do they treat it as actual righteousness because that would fly in the face of both empirical evidence and the internal evidence of the Bible itself.
Again, justification involves not only forgiveness of sin but also of entering fellowship with God, the Holy Spirit now indwelling. That, itself, is the basis and essence of man's justice/righteousness. That's what it means to be "made just", for the ungodly to be justified. I can now walk by the Spirit, producing good fruit, putting to death the deeds of the flesh, etc, or not. Consider the Parable of the Talents/Bags of Gold in Matt 25 to see how this plays out. We're given the grace, the gifts. We can "invest" it and bring an increase, or not. We can also bury it and ultimately be booted from the Kingdom. We can reject the gift after having tasted it (Heb 6:4), or after escaping the pollution of the world through the knowledge of Christ (2 Pet 2:20). We can fail to profess our faith, having greater fear of man than of God (John 12:42-43). Or we can prove to be good soil, where the seed "produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. Whoever has ears, let them hear” (Matt 13). Because the wise man is like one who builds his house on a solid foundation, who takes Jesus' words and puts them into practice (Matt 7:24-27).

In any case, the gospel is violated when justification is separated from our being made just. God didn't suddenly become interested in pretending that man is righteous-when he's not. Instead, He provides the way, the authentic way, apart from the law, to the righteousness that precludes our condemnation to death (Rom 8:1-4). Perfection is the goal, as is stated in Scripture (He never created us to be sinners to begin with, after all), but He doesn't demand absolute perfection in this life, but a life marked by increasing growth towards Himself and the reflection of His image within us. So at the same time He demands that we don’t rest on our laurels either; we cannot just remain in our sins now that He’s forgiven them, taken them away, and empowered us to do as He says, to ‘go, and sin no more’.

Again, it all begins here; eternal life begins here. If not, then no sin could ever separate us from God which would be absurd. We’ll be judged based on what we did in this life-with the gifts we’ve been given (2 Cor 5:10).

And;
“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life” (Rom 2:7)
 
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fhansen

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It isn't a response to grace, it is grace.
No, that's part of the error, with some Reformers more and some less completely compelled to deny the resistibilty of grace. But God never, from Eden until this day, forces Himself upon us. Again, He's not interested in automatons but in people who He's patiently drawn and cutltvated into increasing awareness of and alignment with His perfect will. He works in and with us, never overwhelimng or overiding our own wills. 2 Cor 5:20-21, for example:
"We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...
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Here is another scripture that proves the only sin that has ever been attributed to people is not believing God. Satan called God a liar in the garden and Adam believed Satan instead of God.
All have sin and sin is "of the devil."

It is problematic to count sins against Adam and not count that same sin against the devil.

The devil deceives everyone, blinds everyone. Satan has done a real number on people who blame and accuse Adam and Eve. Adam was God's son. Sins are not counted against people including them both.

God was clear about the serpent being the one who did the deed, in the statement "because thou hast done this..."

So why go past that and hang it on Adam or Eve? Sins of the devil transpire in us all as well. Are we willing to take the fall for Satan? Why? Satan does what Satan does.
We are all doing sinful works while in Jesus
Very true. So much for the sinlessness designation then, which is the general point.
Not only do we have the righteousness of Jesus, our works do not change that righteousness. Romans 8: 10 Anyone in Jesus is dead. The law does not apply to dead people
You might consider the fact that the law is against the lawless and Satan/devils are lawless as well, so the LAW STANDS fully against THEM at all times.

Your positions simply fails to account for the other parties that operate in people that are not the people.
 
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Arial-byGrace

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Can/will a child of God sin? If so, how much or what gravity of sin, if any, means that a) he was never a child of God to begin with, or b) he's compromised his salvation? Or is he guaranteed to overcome sin-sufficiently?-by the end of the day?
The believer is kept by God. It is Christ's righteousness and for Christ's sake, that is counted as ours for the day of consummation. It is the idea that one can go in and out of salvation on the merit of sinning or not sinning that creates an impossible line of how much is too much or how little is too little. Our Father is not evaluating the status of the adoption as his children through the One who laid down his life to purchase them for the Father, on their behavior. Like a Father he disciplines them when they need discipline. Adoption in the biblical sense, just as in the natural world, is also a legal standing. (And by Father I mean God.) God doesn't break his own laws. He evaluates us according to our relationship in Christ with Christ the only Righteous one. It is what your Bible plainly tells you.

The view you present on the other hand teaches the insufficiency of the work of Christ for salvation. It requires Christ's work plus our work.
As far as John's passage, God knows just who are being referred to there, who belong to Him, while we don't know with that kind of 100% certainty.
True no one knows who they are but God. However, that is not what the passage is even talking about. It unequivocally states that those Christ will raise up in the last day are the ones God is giving to him. Those he will lose none of, are the one's God gives to him. John 10 goes even farther.

24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
but we can't predict if we'll end up being good soil, or whether or not we'll persevere to the end. There are far too many contingies and examples and warnings to believers that are also listed in the bible regarding falling away and the potential consequences.
Those passages that you interpret as saying we can lose our salvation would be a direct contradiction to who God is in the first place. And second to every Scripture that says we cannot lose our salvation as the one given above from John 10 does. So yur interpretation needs more careful exegetical work, using the full counsel of God. You have imposed a meaning into it.
And that's the question. If justification and therefore salvation is only a matter of a forensic declaration, and has nothing to do with what we do or don't do, without regard to our unrighteousness or righteousness, then does it really even matter what the person thinks about sin?
Paul dealt with that question in Romans. People were accusing him and the other apostles of preaching the same thing you are accusing justification by faith alone (which Paul was teaching in chapers 3-6) of teaching.

Romans 5
1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, wea have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 6


1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Um, sorry, I was just citing Scripture there, not my personal opinon. Are you saying that no one should ever attempt to help another who's ensalved by sin?
Was I speaking about helping or was I speaking about judging? Was I speaking about helping, or was I speaking about the godly way of helping? Read my post and decide. But don't misrepresent what I say in order to try and gain "points" in your favor.
Or are you assuming some kind of special insight about me, specifically? BTW, I've walked with drug addicts through long processes of overcoming addiction. Was I being judgemental in insinuating and recognizing their need for help? Was I being audacious?
No to the first question. To the second question. It was your own judgmental words that towards those struggling with sin that prompted what I said.
"My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins." James 5:9
?? Does that say "My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone would stand in judgment of their salvation,---" You keep making category mistakes. Besides, that does not even say wander into sin but wander from the truth. All my posts on justification to you have been me trying to bring you back from wandering from the truth, and you resist at every turn.
Nonsense. Anyone can return to darkness. God's in the business of creating something very great and noble and grand, something like Himself in minature, with His humans-and that necessarily involves our wills, weak as they may be especially at first. He's not looking to produce holy automatons in any case.
It is because we still have our sin nature for right now that we need God to preserve us and cause us to persevere. Why do you think Christ substituted himself in our place and did for us what we cannot do? As an example of how to be saved? God saves! Not our wills. And he doesn't need our help.

We may return to sin for a time or season but that is not returning to the kingdom of darkness. Jesus paid with his life and blood to snatch us out of that kingdom and bring us into the kingdom of God. Is he powerless in the face of our weakness? Is salvation really still all up to us? Well good luck with that. I guess he came for no reason and accomplished nothing real.
 
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Arial-byGrace

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No, that's part of the error, with some Reformers more and some less completely compelled to deny the resistibilty of grace.
It is the grace of salvation that cannot be resisted. If it could be no one would be saved. It is grace that anyone is saved. It is the Holy Spirit who can be resisted in sanctification. Have you not heard that God's word always accomplishes what he sends it to do. You really shouldn't use what you consider wrong with the Reformers or the Reformed as your arguments since you have shown you do not even understand what it is.

I assume you agree with original sin. So how is a person whose very makeup, including his will is riddled with sin and who is by nature at enmity with God, and whose will is always bent towards self and self-interest rather than God, who cannot understand or accept the things of God, able to change himself into a person who loves God by the force of his will? Hmmm? Can a zebra become an elephant? Can a leopard change its spots? Why do you think it took such radical thing as God coming to us as one of us to die for us?
But God never, from Eden until this day, forces Himself upon us.
Why would you equate the grace of God being effectual with God forcing himself on us? That is twisted.
Again, He's not interested in automatons but in people who He's patiently drawn and cutltvated into increasing awareness of and alignment with His perfect will. He works in and with us, never overwhelimng or overiding our own wills. 2 Cor 5:20-21, for example:
The major flaw in that argument is a false equivalency. It presumes there are only two choices. Either we come to God of our own accord or we are automatons. The second flaw is a doctrinal flaw that has God valuing our will over his It denies his sovereignty over all he made. The third flaw is that Scripture never says God cultivates us into increasing awareness of and alignment with his perfect will. (And wouldn't that also be a violation of our will through manipulation?). What the Bible says is that Jesus saves those God gives him. What the Bible says is that no one can enter the kingdom unless he is born again, born of God (John 3 and 1). What the Bible says is God brings life to those dead in trespasses. What the Bible says is God regenerates a person and they believe in the person and work of Jesus unto eternal life.
 
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fhansen

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The believer is kept by God.
The believer is still free, and can still use that freedom correctly, or otherwise; he can abuse it, He will struggle, He may yet fail, proving himself to be poor soil. In any case, the fruit must be there. He must begin to reciprocate with the love and mercy that he's been shown, or else he's not God's to begin with, or has left the fold. Matt 6:14-15 gives an example, with jesus talking to His followers:

"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

You want to think that it's all automatic, all done for you as if, having idenitified yourself as a believer there's now no way that you could fail to do God's will in the end or that you could fall away and become lost again. But the bible portays things differently than that.
 
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