In the Bible, is the word 'believe' always the same as 'faith'?

Dave... said:

The faith that is called "not from the flesh", and "a gift from God" where Jesus is the "Author and Finisher" always seems to be speaking of the ongoing, and not the initial faith.

Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

The first faith always seems to be about the initial act, like believe, trust in, repent (change of mind), and then the second seems to be about the ongoing faith, as in Jesus is the Author and Perfector of, a gift from God, Spirit empowered.

In the context if the Bible, is the word 'believe' the same as "faith'? Is there a distinction to be made between the initial faith and the ongoing faith? I believe there is, but just wanted to hear others thoughts on the matter.

Here's some more. John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8-9 vs. James 2:17, Hebrews 11:1, Gal. 2:20.

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"Believe" is the end result of "Faith"

There is initial faith when one is born again. Then as you are led and guided by the Holy Spirit, your faith grows. "Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God.Thus in our walk we move from faith to faith, doing our part in the body of Christ according to our calling. I think that sligns with what you were getting to.

I'm going to copy/paste and edit what I said in another post because it touches on this.

The problem that a lot of people make when reading scripture is, they associate our modern day/english definitions when you can't do that with scripture because other languages hold different meanings or sub context to the word.

For instance: The english words belief/faith/trust that is used when the language is translated (the english choice and why it changes in different verses is based on grammar, but when you look at hebrew/greek its the same word.) The word in these languages can give you more context or subcontext. So...

Hebrew:

• Hebrew has several words that are translated as “believe” or “faith”:
  1. אָמַן (aman) = to confirm, support, or be faithful; used in contexts of trust and reliability.
  2. בָּטַח (batach) = to trust, rely on, or be confident in God.

Greek:

• New Testament Greek commonly uses:
  1. πίστις (pistis) = faith, trust, conviction, loyalty; includes trust and active commitment, not just mental agreement.
  2. πιστεύω (pisteuō) =to believe, trust, rely upon; again, often active reliance on God rather than mere acknowledgment.

In English, "believe" is intellectual but Greek emphasizes action, trust, loyalty in addition to "belief" and Hebrew emphasizes trust and reliance.

Now, go back through scripture and apply this to the context of the verses that you're reading. Paul, Peter, John, James all support this concept. When you do, you'll notice "pisteuō" is a verb. So when a verse talks about the saving kind of faith, its talking about putting it into action by obedience and doesn't use the noun form which implies belief without action. This is why theres verses about being "doers" of the word and not just hearers.

For instance:
I believe the chair will hold me = noun form belief.
Sits in the chair = verb form belief.

Here's an example:
Let's take John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

The word here is pisteuōn which is a verb (active participle) but its still the verb form of faith/belief/trust. So it's saying to have active, verb faith of walking it out and not just acknowledgement. At the core, salvation is based on a relationship with God which requires verb faith. Follow him, let him guide you, do what he says, that's all verb faith.

When it comes to initial faith, you're going to struggle at first because its hard to trust when you're first starting out. But the more times you sit in the chair, the stronger your faith becomes and the closer you and God get. But I hope that helps. If you have any questions or want clarification, let me know.

Delvianna said:

when you look at hebrew/greek its the same word.) The word in these languages can give you more context or subcontext. So...

Hebrew:

• Hebrew has several words that are translated as “believe” or “faith”:
  1. אָמַן (aman) = to confirm, support, or be faithful; used in contexts of trust and reliability.
  2. בָּטַח (batach) = to trust, rely on, or be confident in God.

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Hebrew is Emunah

Dave... said:

In the context if the Bible, is the word 'believe' the same as "faith'? Is there a distinction to be made between the initial faith and the ongoing faith? I believe there is, but just wanted to hear others thoughts on the matter.

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It looks like it' the same, and it's not as well
Please let me remind you of Luke 17 5 : 10

5 And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith.”

6 So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you. 7 And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and sit down to eat’? 8 But will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink’? 9 Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded [e]him? I think not. 10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’ ”

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I don't know why the NKJV doesn't separate the 6th from the 7th up to the 10th verses
Must be a reason !

Y

Dave... said:

Hey Rich

But can a person be born again without the Holy Spirit?

Take Ephesians 1:13-14 for example. "Believe" is how we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I don't think that it's possible to be born again without the Holy Spirit indwelling us. This presents a tension with your understanding, along with many others, I might add. That's why I wanted to really explore this distinction. Which would explain and remove that tension.

"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, *having believed*, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

Galatians 3:2-3 says that we begin being perfected as a result of the indwelling. That the indwelling is the result of our initial faith. How can this be if faith is the result of being born again?

Romans 8:9-11 says that without the Spirit of God in us we do not belong to Jesus. Ephesians 1 says the indwelling is the result of faith.

How do you reconcile all this? BTW, I'm not picking on anyone. I'm just pushing the idea, testing, to see what comes from it.

Dave

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Yes, no one is born again without the Holy Spirit. There is a debate about whether faith comes first, after or its simultaneous to being born again.

Dave... said:

Hey Rich

But can a person be born again without the Holy Spirit?

Take Ephesians 1:13-14 for example. "Believe" is how we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I don't think that it's possible to be born again without the Holy Spirit indwelling us. This presents a tension with your understanding, along with many others, I might add. That's why I wanted to really explore this distinction. Which would explain and remove that tension.

"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, *having believed*, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

Galatians 3:2-3 says that we begin being perfected as a result of the indwelling. That the indwelling is the result of our initial faith. How can this be if faith is the result of being born again?

Romans 8:9-11 says that without the Spirit of God in us we do not belong to Jesus. Ephesians 1 says the indwelling is the result of faith.

How do you reconcile all this? BTW, I'm not picking on anyone. I'm just pushing the idea, testing, to see what comes from it.

Dave

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Faith, itself, is a gift of grace first of all, a work of the Holy Spirit. As we accept and express or act upon that gift, it will grow. We can also reject it, failing to act upon it. To accept it at the beginning means to step forward and open the door when God knocks, becoming a member now of His family.

There is not a significant difference in terms of the nature of Faith. Faith is for humankind to reach a truth (of any kind even science). The god of this world has blinded the minds of men that they don't know what faith is.

For example, is it Biden or is it Trump who won the 2020 US election? It's basically faith-based, that's why even sane humans would grab a gun to rush into the US Capitol. It's so because evidence has no bearing on this, truth is told by faith and faith only.

"Evidence" is a misleading vague term. In this case, evidence refers to how humans access the accurate vote counts. The reality is, humans lack the ability to reach this piece of evidence. The devil leverage this human inability to have created the term "evidence" through our education (it's the same old trick of the Tree of Knowledge).

In general, humans completely lack the ability to get to evidence (especially in terms of efficiency of reaching it). Humans actually give up the way of evidence (because evidence is a mission impossible) when approaching a truth. They rely on human testimony to reach a truth instead.

In the same case of Biden vs. Trump, humans rely on testimonies broadcast by trusted media to determine a truth. If these media (of conveying truth) are inconsistent, humans are lost driven nuts and rush into the Capitol. Another example is the Nanjing Massacre occurred in WWII. The Chinese claimed a death toll of 300,000 civilians, but denied by the Japanese. Humans are incapable of digging up evidence. As a result, you either believe (with faith) what the Chinese government said (as Chinese do), or believe what the Japanese government said, which is a denial (as Japanese do). Any so-called "evidence" actually turned out to be the validity of the related testimonies.

More often, when people said that something is evident, he may actually mean to say the validity of a testimony instead of actual evidence. Using the same Biden vs. Trump example, when one says it's evident that Biden won the votes, he's not actually talking about how he have accessed the accurate and actual count of votes (which humans have no ability to access), he actually means CNN (and camp) has provided a testimony with validity and legitimacy.

Dave... said:

But what part of the faith is the gift? What I mean is, the "life" is a gift. That ongoing faith is a gift, the 'by grace, not of ourselves', that's the gift. But the initial believing is another story. If we can agree that one cannot be born again without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and without the Spirit we are dead, in the flesh, per Romans 8:8-11, then there are many tensions in Scripture to deal with per your understanding.

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We might not agree then. We cannot be born again unless we believe, because belief is the doorway to life with God, the very Source of true life, life eternal. The Holy Spirit is the beginning and outworking of it all. And that beginning is faith, as He informs and moves and prompts us towards it. And yet we can still refuse the offer.

Dave... said:

Hey f

What would you do with verse like Ephesians 1:12-14, that show belief before life? Would you claim that this person was born again before they were indwelt with the Holy Spirit? And all OT believers who none were indwelt with the Holy Spirit, but they believed.

OT John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."(Born again) But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

And also the Gospel message itself all through out Scripture, which claims believe and be saved?

John 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.


Dave

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I'd say, as they say. 'believe and be saved'. Faith is both a gift of grace first of all, and then a human choice, to accept, embrace, and act upon that gift- daily, BTW. As we accept it, we move from being lost to being found, now a child of God.

Dave... said:

This is why I think that their needs to be a distinction between the initial and the ongoing.

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When it comes to faith, we don't know where the goal post is. Some people are given more mercy than others. An example of this is the thief on the cross. He didn't have the time to verb faith his way into salvation. He was stuck on a cross about to die. The repentance part was enough for Jesus to tell him that he would be with him in paradise. So you can't fit faith neatly into boxes about how much or how little as well as circumstances may differ too. Verb faith is for the people who are living and can actively put it into practice. But even then, there isn't a clearly defined goal post. God knows what faith is saving faith vs just merely belief. That distinction matters.

Okay, getting into Romans 1:16-17

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes (pisteuō), for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith (pistis) to faith (pistis); as it is written, “The just shall live by faith (pistis).”

Paul doesn't need to use the verb form of faith in verse 17 because he's spelling it out with "the just shall live by faith". But it is backed up with the verb form when it says "believes". So when you say you think it's initial + ongoing, actually its just ongoing and the verses don't have any indication it's talking about initial. Because "everyone who believes" already indicates already ongoing faith in action due to the verb form.

Now let's take Romans 3:3 and Romans 3:22

Romans 3:3
For what if some did not believe (apisteō-v)? Will their unbelief (apistia-n) make the faithfulness [of God (theos)] without effect?

So firstly, it would read, "what if some did not put faith into action?" Which makes the rest of the verse make more sense right? Essentially Paul is saying this: "So if someone doesn't put faith into action, does their unfaithfulness cancel out God's faithfulness?"

And it's translate "of God" to make more sense in english but its literally just "theos" meaning God. The "of" part is added due to grammar and how english is structured.

Romans 3:22
even the righteousness of God, through faith (pistis) in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe (pisteuō). For there is no difference;

So through belief in Jesus, to all who verb faith believe. - Essentially. Which also doesn't indicate initial faith.

Now Galatians 2:20

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith (pistis) in/of (ὁ) the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

He doesn't need to use the verb form here because he already established he lives it out "I now live" so it's fine he used the noun version. Now, when it comes to of/in its the definite article ὁ which technically makes the verse supposed to read "of" instead of in. Which makes more sense because Paul is pushing Jesus to the forefront of his life by saying Christ is the one doing the work. So it makes sense it would mean "of" the Son of God because it's Christs work that is doing it and not center focus of YOU doing something IN Christ. Does that make sense?

But in each of these examples there is nothing here that denotes a start point of faith. It is always ongoing, continual, don't cease and active. So I wouldn't frame this as "there isn't the holy spirit at the start of faith" because scripture honestly, doesn't back this up. God could give you the holy spirit right at the beginning because the point of the holy spirit is to guide us, correct us and help us walk righteously and it's always at the start that we need the most help. Now, where the goal post is for solid salvation (because you can walk away at any time), only God knows with each persons individual walk.

There was a lot you mentioned and I hope I covered it all. If I didn't, just let me know.

The devil knows there is God, therefore he believes; however he put no faith in God when he rebelled. Belief is knowing, faith is confidently trusting in God in and for all things. This, the devil does not do.

Dave... said:

Exactly! Once we are in agreement that one cannot be born again without the indwelling, then it's simply listening to Scripture which makes the distinction of the initial faith, and the ongoing itself. Now it's just a matter of defining both as much as Scripture allows.

Just to throw in one more possible monkey wrench into the matter at hand, 'faith' or 'the faith', also carries one more possible meaning in Scripture. It could also be used as a metaphor for the NT, as in Galatians 3:23, Jude 3 or, it verifies my conclusion that sometimes the word 'faith' is used as a metaphor for 'life' in Scripture.

Galatians 3:18-29For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Compare to Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Which, for my money, would verify that OT believers died having not received the 'life' by faith, which is the result of the indwelling. They had the initial faith. The flesh faith, or a lesser version that resulted from another means, like the presence of God, but not the life that results from the indwelling. The distinction in the initial faith and the ongoing faith could unlock a lot of meaning, and remove a lot of otherwise tensioned theology. Just my 2 cents for the record.

Dave

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Im.not sure faith and life equate fully. I do believe ot saints were saved by faith. Their faith was in Gid to provide the coming messiah. They trusted God even before jesus was born.