God requires sinless perfection to enter His kingdom

fli said:

As long as we keep believing in Jesus, we are sinless.

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Are you sure?

fli said:

As long as we keep believing in Jesus, we are sinless.

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That is so far from the truth of the gospel, it actually brings Is 5:20 to mind. Along with 1 John 3:7-8:

“Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.”

The law and prophets witness to this righteousness because they reflect it, they identify it and therefore testify to it, to what righteousness "looks like" even though they cannot produce it. It's a true righteousness now given, the means by which God justifies the ungodly.

"This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3: 22 NIV

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

It is wonderful to have someone else to blame for our sins: The devil made me do it, it is all Adam and Eve’s fault, I am only human and your answer: “it is not me myself, but some other being called flesh.”



1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.



John talks about them “not sinning” then “but if” meaning they can sin, then the solution to sin being “Christ”.



John did not say: “but when”, but showed it to be contingent on them.



You are using Ro. 7:14-24 to support your conclusion, but you are not taking into consideration the context of this being written to roman Christians and the writing style of the time being used in Rome to describe Roman victories and Paul’s victory over sin being a huge victory.



A lot is made of the fact Paul switched to the present tense in these verses, but was there a reason that the Roman reader to pick up on this switch and better understand what Paul was saying? We are reading other peoples mail to Romans in Rome during the first century, so what would be the best way to communicate a huge victory over sin to them?



When Mark describes in his Gospel is Christ’s great battle with a climatic victory being Christ rising, he wrote it in the “historic present tense”. Supporting the idea Mark was in Rome at the time.

What Paul is describing in Romans 7: 14-24 is a great battle and final climatic victory over sin in the “historic present tense”.

Sin has purpose for the nonbeliever, but what “purpose” does it have in the believer life?

When Deity dwelled unquenched in a human (Christ) it did not sin, so does deity dwell within Christians, so the problem is really the quenching of the Spirit?



On every major street corner in Rome were monuments to some great Roman victory, some parts of these monuments are in museums today and below each is given an exciting climatic description of the battle in the “historic present tense”. This was the same description carried by messengers sent out by the general over the Roman Empire, after a great victory.



Similar to this Roman section on (the war and victory over sin) is Mark’s whole Gospel of Christ’s war against satan’s follows of this world”.



The Gospel of Mark was mimicking the messages that were sent out by the Roman generals after winning a great battle. These messages went with messengers to dramatically present the battle with the victory at the end, to the cheers of the crowd. They were always in the present tense and we have some copies that were written in stone under the battle monuments that were spread throughout Rome. The Gospel of Mark is written in the style of these Victory Messages sent by the Roman General to the Roman Empire and Mark’s is very much a victory message. Do you think, Paul in keep with the Roman culture of the day, would have written His victorious battle over sin in the present tense to the Romans in Rome?



It is called the “historic present tense”, by scholars and would fit what Paul was saying to the Romans.



This topic and the use of Romans 7: 14-24 come up a lot and a lot has been written on it.



The context helps and you need to address these questions:



1. When did Paul learn about “coveting”?

2. When did this problem start for Paul?

3. Does Paul continue in the misery and what would relief this misery?

4. Is “just being forgiven” a good solution to the problem?

5. When did Paul obtain the solution?



The answer to the problem of sinning while here on earth is solved with Romans chapter 8 and the indwelling holy Spirit.

fli said:

So, you do not believe that as long as we keep believing in Jesus, we are sinless. 1 John 3: 5 states that in Jesus there is no sin. Jesus is sinless and there is no sin in Him. That is why God the Father resurrected Him. While we remain in Him, abide in Him, we are sinless. I will give you 2 reasons that we are sinless while we are in Him.

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fli said:

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. NKJV

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So what does it go on to say in Rom 8:12-14?
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God."

This means that we're now slaves to righteousness, no longer slaves to sin!:
"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. " Rom 6:20-22

This is what John is getting at-all throughout his first letter:
"This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:10

I suggest @fli you look into the biblical word for belief and go to the hebrew/greek for understanding the word. The problem that a lot of people make when reading scripture is, they associate our modern day/english definitions when you can't do that with scripture because other languages hold different meanings or sub context to the word.

For instance: The english words belief/faith/trust that is used when the language is translated (the english choice and why it changes is based on grammar, but when you look at hebrew/greek its the same word.) The grammar of the sentence in these languages can give you more context or subcontext. So...

Hebrew:

• Hebrew has several words that are translated as “believe” or “faith”:
  1. אָמַן (aman) = to confirm, support, or be faithful; used in contexts of trust and reliability.
  2. בָּטַח (batach) = to trust, rely on, or be confident in God.

Greek:

• New Testament Greek commonly uses:
  1. πίστις (pistis) = faith, trust, conviction, loyalty; includes trust and active commitment, not just mental agreement.
  2. πιστεύω (pisteuō) =to believe, trust, rely upon; again, often active reliance on God rather than mere acknowledgment.

In English, "believe" is intellectual but Greek emphasizes action, trust, loyalty in addition to "belief" and Hebrew emphasizes trust and reliance.

Now, go back through scripture and apply this to the context of the verses that you're reading. Others above have made good arguments as Paul, Peter, John, James all support this. Because you'll notice "pisteuō" is a verb. So when it talks about faith, its talking about putting it into action by obedience and doesn't use the noun form which implies just abstract belief.

For instance:
I believe the chair will hold me = noun form belief.
Sits in the chair = verb form belief.

So when you read scripture, be careful that you aren't applying modern english definitions to an entirely different language.

fli said:

So, you do not believe that as long as we keep believing in Jesus, we are sinless. 1 John 3: 5 states that in Jesus there is no sin. Jesus is sinless and there is no sin in Him. That is why God the Father resurrected Him. While we remain in Him, abide in Him, we are sinless. I will give you 2 reasons that we are sinless while we are in Him.

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It is not our own righteousness. It is Christ's righteousness imputed (credited to our account). Just as our sons were not Christ's sins but ours imputed to him. IOW he took the penalty we owed on his own flesh and died the death we deserve. This satisfied the wrath of God (justice of a just God) against our sin. Jesus' work on the cross:

• Substitution
• Ransom
• Propitiation
• Imputation
• Justification

However, we still have our sin nature and that awaits the fullness of our salvation when Jesus returns. (See 1 Cor 15 to see what happens then.) So, we will still sin. It will become less over time as our minds are transformed through the study of his word and the Holy Spirit who indwells us. That is sanctification and takes place over the course of the rest of our life.

What Jesus did on the cross in addition to the above is conquer the power of sin and death to condemn us. Jesus paid that debt in full. "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). And death cannot hold us for we will be resurrected on the last day (1 Cor 15).

Arial-byGrace said:

It is not our own righteousness. It is Christ's righteousness imputed (credited to our account). Just as our sons were not Christ's sins but ours imputed to him. IOW he took the penalty we owed on his own flesh and died the death we deserve. This satisfied the wrath of God (justice of a just God) against our sin. Jesus' work on the cross:

• Substitution
• Ransom
• Propitiation
• Imputation
• Justification

However, we still have our sin nature and that awaits the fullness of our salvation when Jesus returns. (See 1 Cor 15 to see what happens then.) So, we will still sin. It will become less over time as our minds are transformed through the study of his word and the Holy Spirit who indwells us. That is sanctification and takes place over the course of the rest of our life.

What Jesus did on the cross in addition to the above is conquer the power of sin and death to condemn us. Jesus paid that debt in full. "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). And death cannot hold us for we will be resurrected on the last day (1 Cor 15).

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The reason that we're no longer condemned is because we can now, through Christ, overcome the sin that otherwise condemns us to death. It's the forgiveness of sin and that gift of righteousness, again, as we're made new creations:

"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

fhansen said:

The reason that we're no longer condemned is because we can now, through Christ, overcome the sin that otherwise condemns us to death. It's the forgiveness of sin and that gift of righteousness, again, as we're made new creations:

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We can overcome sins, that is cease doing some of them and more of them over time, because through faith we have been united to Christ and it is God who works in us. But that is not why we are not condemned. We are not condemned because Christ conquered sin and death on the cross. It is an objective thing, not an abstract or subjective things that he did. He came to conquer sin and the last enemy death.

It was a proven victory when he arose from the grave and ascended back to the Father. Crowned as King on Zion (Ps 2) made High Priest and mediator of the NC, between God and man. Yes, we also still die, but we too have the assurance that that grave will not hold us either. Redemption is in a right now/not yet tension.

If you believe in God, and keep adultering thieving, you are SINNING. STOP.
And the bible says "Don't be deceived, those who sin are not going to inherit the kingdom of God"

Arial-byGrace said:

We can overcome sins, that is cease doing some of them and more of them over time, because through faith we have been united to Christ and it is God who works in us. But that is not why we are not condemned. We are not condemned because Christ conquered sin and death on the cross. It is an objective thing, not an abstract or subjective things that he did. He came to conquer sin and the last enemy death.

It was a proven victory when he arose from the grave and ascended back to the Father. Crowned as King on Zion (Ps 2) made High Priest and mediator of the NC, between God and man. Yes, we also still die, but we too have the assurance that that grave will not hold us either. Redemption is in a right now/not yet tension.

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We can overcome sin because He overcame sin. To the extent that we're connected to Him, the Vine, a connection established by and through faith, we will produce good fruit, including the overcoming of sin. Actual righteousness is inseparable form salvation, or else no amount or gravity of sin could ever keep us from heaven. But Scripture says otherwise quite defintively: Rom 2:7, Rom 8:12-14, Gal 5:19-21, Gal 6:7-9, Rev 21:6-8, Rev 22:14-15.

Unless we wash our robes, unless we change, becoming pure of heart, we won't be seeing God (Matt 5:8). The love and mercy we've been shown must be reciprocated, For example:
"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." (Matt 6:14-15)

Love is both a gift of grace and a human choice- to accept, embrace, and act upon that gift-and grow in it- towards the perfection in love that God desires in and for us (John 4:18). But it's all impossible apart from Him.

fhansen said:

We can overcome sin because He overcame sin. To the extent that we're connected to Him, the Vine, a connection established by and through faith, we will produce good fruit, including the overcoming of sin. Actual righteousness is inseparable form salvation, or else no amount or gravity of sin could ever keep us from heaven. But Scripture says otherwise quite defintively: Rom 2:7, Rom 8:12-14, Gal 5:19-21, Gal 6:7-9, Rev 21:6-8, Rev 22:14-15.

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I am not sure in this entire post exactly what it is that you are disagreeing with me about. But to this I will say that we are not connected to him to an extent. Either we are connected to---are in the Vine--or we are not." It is God who works in you, both to will and to work for hs good pleasure."(Phil 2:13)

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Phil 1:6)

"For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son---" (Romans 8:29).

We won't reach sinless perfection this side of the grave or before Christ returns. That wild beast, Pride, would devour us if we could. God intends for us to keep leaning on him, placing our trust in the person and work of Christ, not in ourselves. And we are to seek his grace to overcome those things we wrestle with.

Arial-byGrace said:

I am not sure in this entire post exactly what it is that you are disagreeing with me about. But to this I will say that we are not connected to him to an extent. Either we are connected to---are in the Vine--or we are not." It is God who works in you, both to will and to work for hs good pleasure."(Phil 2:13)

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And overcome them we must, to whatever degree He deems sufficent-and the bible gives us guidleiness on that. We cannot, IOW, willfully, wantonly, persitently, engage in egregious sin or we won't be entering heaven, as Scripture informs us. We will also, as you say, not achieve perfection in this life. Both of those truths are inescapable.

And we can break conection with the Vine, or have a mediocre connection, like mediocre soil. So we're told to draw near to Him (James 4:8)-and to remain in Him (John 15:5) in order to produce good fruit.

fli said:

The therefore refers back to verse 9-11. They have the Spirit of Jesus and as Paul states in verse 10 – if you have the Spirit of Jesus the body is dead because of sin but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. That means if they were to die physically now, they would go to heaven. What would cause them to die now at this point?

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They have the Spirit of Jesus provided they remain in Him and He in them. If they depart then they're dead, just as Adam was the moment he denied God. Faith, in the true God as revealed in and by the person of Jesus Christ, restores that union. And that union will accomplish goodness in us, will produce the love that opposes sin as it fufills the law, or that vital relationship doesn't exist.

Arial-byGrace said:

So, we will still sin. It will become less over time as our minds are transformed through the study of his word and the Holy Spirit who indwells us. That is sanctification and takes place over the course of the rest of our life.

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Well said

fhansen said:

And overcome them we must, to whatever degree He deems sufficent-and the bible gives us guidleiness on that. We cannot, IOW, willfully, wantonly, persitently, engage in egregious sin or we won't be entering heaven, as Scripture informs us. We will also, as you say, not achieve perfection in this life. Both of those truths are inescapable.

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If one willfully, (that is without remorse), wantonly, persistently engage in a lifestyle of sin, they are not in the Vine. One cannot be in the Vine without the Vine producing some fruit.

And here we must be very careful. No one can see into another's heart to know what is taking placing within them. Only God can. Things may be taking place there between the person and God that are not being seen on the outside or in the behavior. We are not all alike. Some have deeper struggles or find themselves in circumstances that make instant "deliverance" from the sin or sins more difficult. It may look on the outside that what they are doing is without remorse, but inwardly they have come to hate the sin. And know this too, that every time we have conquered one sin or even a whole bunch of them, we find other's lurking in our thought patterns and motives, that we did not even recognize as sin. God is faithful to fulfill his promise to conform us more and more to the image of Christ. And we cannot know what he is doing in and with another. We must not trample on God's work by standing in harsh judgment of the person's salvation according to what we see on the outside.

We have a savior that is faithful and righteous because we all still sin. But if we confess our sin He forgive us. Sinless perfection is not attainable in this life which is why we needed a savior to justify the believer.


“This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous, so that He will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1‬:‭5‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬