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Is belief/non-belief a morally culpable state?
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Meowzltov
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When I was a child, I assumed people chose what they believed. Then I grew up.
Here is the problem:
1. Our senses are not entirely accurate. Our eyes, ears, etc., don't always work the way they should and there are many things that exist for which we have no ability to sense.
2. Our perception is not completely reliable either. Perception is the ability to properly interpret sensory data. Even if our bodies are functioning as designed we make mistakes. Optical illusions are well known, as are hallucinations, and these things are far more common than people want to think. Do you realize just how common it is for people to not quite hear a word, and insert the wrong word into the blank spot?
3. Contrary to popular thinking, human beings are incredibly irrational creatures. We have inherited biologically ingrained cognition errors that literally block us from reaching accurate conclusions: confirmation bias, primacy effect, projection, need for closure, illusion of control.... I could probably list 30 different cognitive distortions that keep us from the truth.
IMHO, it's a miracle that human beings can function as well as we do.
Do I think we have a moral imperative to try to find the truth? Yes. But I would say we have just as strong a moral imperative to humbly realize just how fallible we are, and to extend grace to those who are "wrong," because after all, that wrong person could be us.
I am not Christian, and quite frankly I find the Christian notion that God will eternally reward or eternally torture someone due solely to their honest errors seems morally outrageous to me. It would be the worst sort of injustice to punish a person for something that is beyond their control. And folks, that's just not the God I love and serve.
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Your comments here are wonderful and all, but I wouldn't call that last point you made a 'Christian notion' if it's not something that Jesus Christ Himself, or His apostles and immediate disciples, mentioned.
Just something to think about where Hermeneutical acumen is an important part of reading and understanding either the Tanakh or the New Testament. I'm sure we have some concurrence in sentiments about this.
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Fervent
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All of this is true, there are factors that play into what we believe or don't believe that are not within our control. But the issue isn't quite as black and white as entirely voluntary or beyond our control, and the choices we make often accumulate into the things that we believe to be true.
Again, it's not an all-or-nothing issue. We can hold firm to convictions about what we think to be our best approximation of truth while recognizing that these convictions are not purely a product of our own intellect or ethical character or some other quality that sets us apart. Yet we remain culpable for the choices that aggregate into our beliefs.
You seem to be hanging what to my understanding is a vocal minority position as the normative Christian position. There is a wide array of understanding that falls within orthodox Christian conversation on such matters, even arguably extending to a form of universalism where through Christ all of humanity(and in fact all of creation) is delivered from sin and death. While it is not a position I agree with or believe fits within orthodoxy, there is room for discussion on the matter such that your characterization of such a notion as "the Christian notion" is uncharitable and not reflective of the diversity of thought within Christianity.
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essentialsaltes
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Meowzltov
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If a person believes X when non-X is objectively more likely (meaning there is evidence to that effect), I believe this would make the individual a stupid person making an honest mistake. In other words, their mistake is not a moral failure, but a failure of intelligence.
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Who determines whether the evidence is sufficient?
Romans 1:20 (KJV)
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
Psalm 19 (KJV)
- The heavens declare the glory of God;
and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Day unto day uttereth speech,
and night unto night sheweth knowledge. - There is no speech nor language,
where their voice is not heard. - Their line is gone out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world.
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Hans Blaster
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Hmm.
Well, it sure ain't Paul. That dude is clueless about what other people know.
This p-salmist is also a bit confused. (though the archaic language makes it hard to see) For starters there is no "firmament" separating the heavens from the waters above. The space race killed that one hard.
neither of these passages claim to be spoken by God.
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Christians believe all scripture is "God-breathed."
Pretend you're discussing canon in the Star Wars universe with a Star Wars nerd.
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Hans Blaster
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So are we now to just accept so post-biblical Christian dogma or what the text actually says?
Some sections clearly say "and God said to Moses:", etc.
Paul rather famously states in several places "hey this is just my opinion".
As for "Christians believe", no one ever bothered telling me to believe that.
Not a great example. Fan canon debates are notorious online for not agreeing about what is and is not canon, rather than universal agreement that whatever the [franchise] creator says is dogma.
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“All scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” 2 Timothy 3:16
Only one place. In that case, he's making a distinction between actually quoting Jesus (with regard to marriage between believers, on which Jesus explicitly spoke) and giving instruction through his own Holy Spirit inspiration (with regard to marriage between a believer and a nonbeliever, a subject never mentioned by Jesus). But Paul affirms as well that he's speaking by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
I gave you the specific passage.
Well, there are great debates among Christians as well, which you should know, having been in these forums for a while.
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Hans Blaster
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As Paul says to his friend Timothy. I don't think Paul considered his own correspondence to be "scripture".
"Inspiration"? Lot's of people claim "inspiration" from things.
I try not to read canon fights. To quote Mr. Worf: "Those *are* Klingons and we don't talk about it."
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Meowzltov
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I'm sorry, but Paul is just mistaken about this. For me? For me, the whole universe screams "God!" But I know many atheists who simply don't hear this, simply don't see it, simply don't sense it. So NO, it is NOT clear. And that means there IS excuse.
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Hans Blaster
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Neither did this Catholic lad. I didn't hear a lot of that kind of talk (look at God's wonders) but I do sort of recall my mom commenting about the amazing power of God when we stared at the Grand Canyon of the Colorado, and my thought was about the Colorado Plateau being lifted up while the river cut the canyon.
Or Paul is just another fanatic in error.
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The Barbarian
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The Church recognizes the fact of invincible ignorance. Some people just can't see it, even thought it's obvious to most others. And they are blameless if, by no intention of their own, they are unable to recognize the truth.
I am told that Calvinists don't agree, or limit it to human laws as opposed to divine law.
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Bradskii
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Someone mentioned the Grand Canyon earlier. Went there a few years back with my wife. You stand on the edge and soak it all in and it's awe inspiring. Truly magnificent. One of my top 10 'Wow' moments. You stand there and think that that little river down there slowly carved out this magnificent canyon over millions of years. Hard to get your head around it.
Now what would it feel like if someone walked over and said 'Hey, you know that this was designed and built back in the 50's? The casinos chipped in and had it designed and carved out over 15 years as a tourist attraction. See the river as it turns the bend down there? It flows into a small lake and is pumped back up to the start to flow down again'.
Would it be so magnificent now you realise it was designed just for us? That someone thought about it and made it just so? To me it would be like seeing the back of film set where you see that the magnificent building is just a wood and plaster facade.
Been on a safari? You'd think it would be for animal lovers. Unless...you see a kill in close up. A few hyenas tearing lumps out of the back of a gazelle (where the flesh is a lot softer). It'll be a slow death for the prey. You could watch it go on all afternoon if you've got a strong stomach and a complete lack of empathy. And then you can talk about it over a whisky back in camp and discuss that the whole process was designed thus. And what you struggled to watch for an few minutes has been happening in millions of cases each hour, each day, for millions upon millions of years.
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Meowzltov
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I think that when a particular perception is prevalent, it is VERY easy to slip into the "Everyone experiences it this way." That is almost always a mistake. Exceptions prove the rule, as they say.
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Meowzltov
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I am no friend of Paul. But in this instance I think he is simply being human. When a particular perception is common, most people will jump to the conclusion that everyone experiences it this way.
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